Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted March 18, 2014 All right relax, no one died. But I have a couple of handguns that occasionally do not lock back when they are empty, namely my Glock 34 and Springfield XD9 SC. I have heard that it could be an issue with magazines, or it could be something to do with my thumb position, but it happens intermittently, so it's tough to track down. So Sunday evening I'm in a GFH class, and we're doing a low light drill. I engage a threat from behind cover; move to another cover and engage two more threats. Just before I'm about to do a simulated room entry, I do what I think is a tactical reload. I then burst through the doorway, shine my light on the targets, look for my sights, and "click." I involuntarily shout the obligatory, "Oh, shit!" I rush back out of the room, tap and rack; and realize that I had no round in the chamber when I reloaded. Luckily for me, the targets weren't shooting back, so I went back into the room and engaged them. Had it been a real life encounter, it could have ended quite badly for me. Just thought some might find that interesting, or at least amusing. Any thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Polak 3 Posted March 18, 2014 Sounds mostly likely like thumb placement. Secondly, it could be the mags. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted March 18, 2014 The follower is worn wear it pushes up on the slide lock lever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted March 18, 2014 "Press Check" for a longer life Also both of those guns have tactile loaded chamber indicators. Use them. If you are safe enough and have time enough to do a tac-load or a reload with retention you have time to run a finger over them or press check. Train to use one set of manipulations that work in all lighting conditions. Mistakes in training are good, it let's us shake down our gear and TTPs so we can correct them before it happens in the real world. Also, keep in mind the "last round hold open" feature is an American design. Many euro guns forgo it - or did until the American market demands it. They train to rack the slide after every mag change thinking losing 1 round on a tac-load is worth it for a full mag in the gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HBecwithFn7 296 Posted March 18, 2014 All right relax, no one died. But I have a couple of handguns that occasionally do not lock back when they are empty, namely my Glock 34 and Springfield XD9 SC. I have heard that it could be an issue with magazines, or it could be something to do with my thumb position, but it happens intermittently, so it's tough to track down. So Sunday evening I'm in a GFH class, and we're doing a low light drill. I engage a threat from behind cover; move to another cover and engage two more threats. Just before I'm about to do a simulated room entry, I do what I think is a tactical reload. I then burst through the doorway, shine my light on the targets, look for my sights, and "click." I involuntarily shout the obligatory, "Oh, shit!" I rush back out of the room, tap and rack; and realize that I had no round in the chamber when I reloaded. Luckily for me, the targets weren't shooting back, so I went back into the room and engaged them. Had it been a real life encounter, it could have ended quite badly for me. Just thought some might find that interesting, or at least amusing. Any thoughts? I had this difficulty with a P226 I was renting. They also felt it was mag issue. No matter to me now, I own my own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John3754 0 Posted March 19, 2014 Get some new mags. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 19, 2014 HK P30's (non-safety versions) are prone to this due to the long slide release lever. I tried training around it but in the end I'm just ordering the safety-style slide releases. I can still trip them no problem on demand but my thumb no longer rides it and prevents the slide from locking back... and my groups improved as my hands now rest where they want to naturally. Note I do NOT have this problem with the P2000SK. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,882 Posted March 19, 2014 What did the instructor say? In that situation I think a quick tap-rack would put you back in the game much faster than retreating back out of the room, racking and re-entering. Obviously, not having an empty chamber would have been preferable, but giving the bad guys a heads-up that you'll be coming from that direction as soon as you've corrected your problem seems like you're giving them the initiative. If it had been a simple mis-fire would you have retreated? I'm not trying to be critical, just wondering about your perspective and whether there was any discussion afterwards. Stu. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted March 19, 2014 I like the idea of racking the slide on new mag all the time (lose one just to be safe). Is that bad thinking ? At least it's a consistent muscle memory training function no? I did it shooting steel in the move the guy said toe "you had one one the chamber that was unnecessary". Thoughts ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted March 19, 2014 On a speed reload it doesn't matter, you're not gonna rack it twice on the off chance you blew the reload. The slide going home will put one in often enough that training for anything else is a waste of time. Just learn the correct way to reload, practice your immediate action drills to keep Murphy away and go forth and do good things. On a tactical reload or reload with retention either press check or use the LCI. Again, learn one way that works in all lighting conditions and train it. I train my folks to always top off the blaster after a transition. Rationale being that it just saved your life once, you may need to rely on it agin so you may as well keep it as full as possible. During training that is a lot of tac loading. You get used to it quickly and it becomes second nature to press check or swipe the LCI with a finger prior to holstering or readying up. Easy day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glockncolts 46 Posted March 19, 2014 If it happens with both guns it is more likely user error. Do you have an extended slide release on either pistol? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arbelest 29 Posted March 19, 2014 HE what do you mean when you say press check? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mach16lt 0 Posted March 19, 2014 They train to rack the slide after every mag change thinking losing 1 round on a tac-load is worth it for a full mag in the gun. This is how I train... I've taken the time to learn about the different aspects of reloading strategy... Tactical reloads, fast reloads, etc. IMO..Hands down... the idea of non-diagnostic weapon handling is the best. I've trained with Tactical Response and that is their method. I find that it just really makes perfect sense to me. Loosing 1 round out of the chamber isn't nearly as important as making sure my body does the same exact movements every time... To ensure that if I was ever under stress I don't ever have to make a decision One thing to point out in this video... It may seem like they're teaching to tap-rack whenever you gun runs empty... That's not the case. If the slide does lock back (which is usually obvious to the shooter) they teach to initiate the reload. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted March 19, 2014 I've come to the conclusion that if James Yeager thinks the sky is blue, I go outside and check. I'm not sure I'd buy his advise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,871 Posted March 19, 2014 I've come to the conclusion that if James Yeager thinks the sky is blue, I go outside and check. I'm not sure I'd buy his advise. Exactly 100% Coming from the competition aspect - I've seen a lot of people ride the slide-lock/release and don't have the slide lock back when they run empty. This is also why you train with malfunction drills. Gun goes click? Tap-rack. oh it locked back now? reload! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,882 Posted March 19, 2014 HE what do you mean when you say press check? A press check is when you pull the slide back part way and check that you see a round in the chamber. You do not pull the slide far enough to eject the round, nor can you tell if it is a live round or a spent case. Always make sure you press the slide fully forward after as three recoil spring may not have enough stored energy to return the slide to battery because it was not fully compressed. Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arbelest 29 Posted March 19, 2014 Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 19, 2014 I've come to the conclusion that if James Yeager thinks the sky is blue, I go outside and check. I'm not sure I'd buy his advise. Wiping coffee off my monitor! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 19, 2014 Exactly 100% Coming from the competition aspect - I've seen a lot of people ride the slide-lock/release and don't have the slide lock back when they run empty. This is also why you train with malfunction drills. Gun goes click? Tap-rack. oh it locked back now? reload! Great post Nick! Somehow Jeff Cooper's TAP-RACK-BANG drills are STILL solving problems. And they were solving them before Mr. Operator (Yeager) was BORN! Learning what a "good grip" feels like and stayin' OFF the release is part of Gun Handling 101 when it comes to it. TRAIN the right way, and this doesn't happen. 60% of Gun Fighting is MENTAL, so it's easier to learn the right way the FIRST time than to have to correct deficiencies. (Paraphrasing Col. Cooper) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,871 Posted March 19, 2014 If you don't shoot competition and mostly shoot at a static port at a range - do this. Get some snap caps. Randomly insert them into the mag with other ammo. You can have someone else reload for you or wear gloves so you don't know where they are in the mag. While shooting - you'll randomly get a CLICK instead of bang... Malfunction drill time! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mach16lt 0 Posted March 19, 2014 I've come to the conclusion that if James Yeager thinks the sky is blue, I go outside and check. I'm not sure I'd buy his advise. Lol... It's funny home many people hate on this guy. I can see how he rubs people the wrong way... But his methods are sound. If a homeless guy told me the sky was blue, and then explained to me it was because molecules in the air scatter the blue wavelengths of light from the sun more prominently than any other spectrum... I'd be inclined to believe it because it makes scientific sense, regardless of the source. To me... That's what the Tactical Response methods offer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted March 19, 2014 I don't hate the guy. I don't hate crazy people, and the man doesn't strike me as being stable. He said so much crazy crap, on video, that I have no choice but to put him in the crazy people pile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted March 19, 2014 To those that will be trying to press check for the first time: Watch some videos or ask someone. There's various ways to get your hand on that slide to creep it back to check the chamber. You might even find it difficult if your springs are hard (hat I mean is its a different motion to just partially creep it back rather than to just "grip and rip" it). And most importantly try not to shoot your fingers off as you have your hand up near that muzzle with a live one in the chamber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted March 19, 2014 A press check is when you pull the slide back part way and check that you see FEEL a round in the chamber. You do not pull the slide far enough to eject the round, nor can you tell if it is a live round or a spent case. Always make sure you press the slide fully forward after as three recoil spring may not have enough stored energy to return the slide to battery because it was not fully compressed. Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2 Fixed it for you.... You want to feel for a case in the chamber. Looking alone won't cut it in all lighting conditions or scenarios. Remember, keep it simple: whenever possible find one way to accomplish a task that will work all the time and train it. Lol... It's funny home many people hate on this guy. I can see how he rubs people the wrong way... But his methods are sound. If a homeless guy told me the sky was blue, and then explained to me it was because molecules in the air scatter the blue wavelengths of light from the sun more prominently than any other spectrum... I'd be inclined to believe it because it makes scientific sense, regardless of the source. To me... That's what the Tactical Response methods offer. Yeager is the king douche retard of gun owners and the grand poobah of the affliction wearing Ed Hardy worshipping "bros" of the firearms community. The people with just enough knowledge to be dangerous but not enough ability to fight their way out of a paper bag. Yeager is all that is wrong with the tactical training industry and thinks of himself as the "bad boy" of tactical training . Nothing he preaches makes sense, nothing he teaches is accepted by any real instructors, nothing he teaches is safe or useful. I award him no points and may God have mercy on his soul. His only claim to fame is quitting a cop job after a few years to be a contractor in Iraq and then freezing during an ambush and getting co-workers killed - look up "Route Irish Ambush, Iraq" for his cowardice and combat ineffectiveness. After all the damage he has caused to the 2A movement with his idiotic rants, posturing, and threats, I wouldn't walk across the street to piss on him if he was on fire. To those that will be trying to press check for the first time: Watch some videos or ask someone. There's various ways to get your hand on that slide to creep it back to check the chamber. You might even find it difficult if your springs are hard (hat I mean is its a different motion to just partially creep it back rather than to just "grip and rip" it). And most importantly try not to shoot your fingers off as you have your hand up near that muzzle with a live one in the chamber If your hand is in front of the muzzle or in danger of being in front of the muzzle you are doing it wrong. Obtain proper education from a reputable firearms instructor that can teach you not just how to do it, but when and why a press check may be necessary. Do not rely on internet videos alone. I prefer to feel the LCI. If that is inconclusive, I will press check and feel, not look, for a case in the chamber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted March 19, 2014 Between the ridiculous youtube comments about killing people and the complete disregard for safety in his class videos, I cant disagree that he is an ass hat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mach16lt 0 Posted March 19, 2014 Wow... You guys have some serious issues with him... To each their own. I can say I've met him, trained with him, had conversations with him, and respect him. He really is a great guy. Sorry you disagree. Opinions are formed through experience and insight. Mine are different than yours... I respect that. My apologies to the OP if this thread has spiraled off topic. My first post was merely to illustrate the training that I have experienced and believe is sound... Regardless of the personality it comes from. Take it for what's it's worth... Just my humble support for a simple and straightforward approach to gun fighting. If I train to do the same exact manipulation a every time, then when shit hits the fan there's less of a chance of me messing it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted March 20, 2014 Well a big thanks to all who took the time to reply. Let me try to address a few of the points that were raised. HE, I will respect and defer to your professional expertise. As a trained civilian, I was only aware of having the need and time for a press check on an administrative load. I don't even know how I would accomplish that in the dark. I suppose feeling for the LCI would be a good habit to acquire. PK90, it could be some wear, as both of those guns and their mags have a few thousand rounds through them. Glockandcolts, those are the only two of my handguns with which that happens, so while it could indeed be user error, I'm not sure. John3754, I just got some new mags, and I don't think it's happening with them. Mr. Stu, I didn't realize what had gone wrong until immediately afterward. At that moment, I wasn't sure what I was dealing with, so rather than stand in front of two armed hostiles trying to clear a jam of unknown origin, I just dove for cover without really thinking about it. Barms, it took me quite awhile to break the habit of racking one out on a tac reload. I was under the impression that it's not good to lose a round, but I understand your point. Mach 16lt, I agree with you that one should train to do the same thing every time. Even under the minimal stress of class scenarios, I find that I default to whatever I am accustomed to doing, without really thinking about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,634 Posted March 20, 2014 HE, I will respect and defer to your professional expertise. As a trained civilian, I was only aware of having the need and time for a press check on an administrative load. I don't even know how I would accomplish that in the dark. I suppose feeling for the LCI would be a good habit to acquire.A press check may not always be the "A" answer. It does take time, it can take your hand away from a master firing grip. To PC or not to PC is a question that only you can answer in the moment. Like you said, I prefer to sweep the LCI with my trigger finger, if that is inconclusive I do this - Grab the pistol like so: Squeeze your hand, opening the ejection port: (Normally the pinky stays down, I lifted it only to demonstrate how far the the chamber is open) Place your pinky in the ejection port feeling for a case in the chamber: It is quick, it keeps your hands away from the muzzle, and doesn't require vision so it works day or night and allows you to keep your situational awareness up because you can continue to scan/view a possible threat area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bt Doctur 188 Posted March 20, 2014 5 steps or 5 shots ,then a tactical reload,repeat as necessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted March 20, 2014 A press check may not always be the "A" answer. It does take time, it can take your hand away from a master firing grip. To PC or not to PC is a question that only you can answer in the moment. Like you said, I prefer to sweep the LCI with my trigger finger, if that is inconclusive I do this - Grab the pistol like so: Squeeze your hand, opening the ejection port: (Normally the pinky stays down, I lifted it only to demonstrate how far the the chamber is open) Place your pinky in the ejection port feeling for a case in the chamber: It is quick, it keeps your hands away from the muzzle, and doesn't require vision so it works day or night and allows you to keep your situational awareness up because you can continue to scan/view a possible threat area. Didn't know you were a hand model. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites