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Will you open carry in PA?

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So now that Utah CC is kicked to the curb by PA's AG, will you just open carry instead?

 

Summary

Pennsylvania is a traditional open carry state. There are 2 issues that prevent it from being a “Gold Star” open carry state. First, you must have a permit to open carry in the city of Philadelphia and second, you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle. However, PA recognizes the permits of all 50 states for open/concealed carry in vehicles.

As that reads even our NJ FID cards will be satisfactory to be able to have a gun on our person while in a vehicle.

 

What are people's thoughts?

 

(persons visiting Philly need not apply... you're just an adjunct to Camden anyways.)

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Seems like you would really have to prepare yourself to be hassled endlessly. But maybe it depends where you are OCing... For example id avoid OC walking to the deli to get a sub or to the coffee shop. But i would do it if I was on my friends property where we shoot. I just dont want to be badgered to death, but then again i don't know what peoples attitudes are towards OC in PA

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I'd like to, although I'll admit I'm a bit nervous. If I did, it would probably be around the EFGA area, which seems pretty rural.

Have others OC'ed? What has been the reception?

 

I think it's an important statement to make, because if people freak out, we can directly point the finger at the AG.

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OC is an interesting thing in PA (my new home).

 

PA has the same stupid laws regarding transport of a firearm.  Only to from range, shop, shooting match etc. UNLESS you have a PA LTCF.

 

So that means you would be in violation of both NJ and PA law if you transported to some random place in PA, then strapped up and went for a walk.  The walk if you are OC is no big deal, but getting the gun to and from is the violation.  Yes this applies even if you have the gun and ammo in separate compartments etc. during transport.

 

A good reference:

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/

 

There was recently an open carry event at a motorcycle dealership near me.  I don't have my LTCF yet, and they were quite clear that I would be violating the law and would not be welcome if I transported there and then strapped up.

 

Relevant post:

Any person carrying a firearm "in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person" is required to have a license to carry or a Sportsman's Firearm Permit (good only for hunting and fishing).
Exceptions: No license is required:

1) To carry a firearm in one's home or fixed place of business.
2) When engaged in target shooting or while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, so long as the firearm is unloaded and the ammunition is carried in a separate container.
3) For law enforcement personnel, including: policemen, jail wardens, sheriffs and their deputies.
4) To carry an unloaded and wrapped firearm from place of purchase to one's home or place of business, to or from a place of repair, "or in moving from one place of abode or business to another."
5) To carry while hunting or fishing or going to the place of hunting or fishing, provided one has a hunting or fishing license and a Sportsman's Firearm Permit.

Note: There is nothing listed that says you can transport for the purposes of Unlicensed OC at your destination....

 

 

and the post by a leader of OC PA:

DO NOT DO THIS!!!! Transportation of a firearm without a license limits you to certain locations.... Transporting simply to OC when you get to your destination is not a LEGAL Exception to the law.

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OC is an interesting thing in PA (my new home).

 

PA has the same stupid laws regarding transport of a firearm.  Only to from range, shop, shooting match etc. UNLESS you have a PA LTCF.

 

So that means you would be in violation of both NJ and PA law if you transported to some random place in PA, then strapped up and went for a walk.  The walk if you are OC is no big deal, but getting the gun to and from is the violation.  Yes this applies even if you have the gun and ammo in separate compartments etc. during transport.

 

A good reference:

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/

 

There was recently an open carry event at a motorcycle dealership near me.  I don't have my LTCF yet, and they were quite clear that I would be violating the law and would not be welcome if I transported there and then strapped up.

 

Relevant post:

Any person carrying a firearm "in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person" is required to have a license to carry or a Sportsman's Firearm Permit (good only for hunting and fishing).

Exceptions: No license is required:

 

1) To carry a firearm in one's home or fixed place of business.

2) When engaged in target shooting or while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, so long as the firearm is unloaded and the ammunition is carried in a separate container.

3) For law enforcement personnel, including: policemen, jail wardens, sheriffs and their deputies.

4) To carry an unloaded and wrapped firearm from place of purchase to one's home or place of business, to or from a place of repair, "or in moving from one place of abode or business to another."

5) To carry while hunting or fishing or going to the place of hunting or fishing, provided one has a hunting or fishing license and a Sportsman's Firearm Permit.

 

Note: There is nothing listed that says you can transport for the purposes of Unlicensed OC at your destination....

 

 

and the post by a leader of OC PA:

DO NOT DO THIS!!!! Transportation of a firearm without a license limits you to certain locations.... Transporting simply to OC when you get to your destination is not a LEGAL Exception to the law.

If I understand correctly, you can't vehicle carry without a license. But, you can vehicle carry with a license granted in any state. This would presumably include a NJ FID or (more safely) an out of state CCW.

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It says "license to carry", FID is not that.

 

As for an out of state CCW, I would assume that would be OK, but PA is reducing the number of state CCW it recognizes.

 

YMMV

IANAL

This is the text I refer to. No mention of "license to carry" or mention of reciprocity. The way I interpret is that any license allows you to carry in vehicle.

 

Pa.C.S. § 6106(b)(11), which provides:
Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

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This is the text I refer to. No mention of "license to carry" or mention of reciprocity. The way I interpret is that any license allows you to carry in vehicle.

 

Pa.C.S. § 6106(b)(11), which provides:

 

Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

 

Read the law you posted. It says a " valid license for that firearm. Your NJ FID has nothing to do with handguns.

 

Based on the fact PA recognizes permits from all states for carry in a vehicle, I would think a non resident permit from another state would cover you in the car. Not sure though.

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My dad OC's in PA with a LTCF. People generally ask him stupid questions but nothing much farther than that. No issues so far.

 

I wouldn't carry without a LTCF or equivalent CCW myself. Too many hassles and loopholes that can get you in trouble, and that isn't even including illegal harassment by the police. I'm not hating on cops, but stroll over to PAFOA and see how many people get harassed WITH LTCFs for OCing. Even if you are 100% legal it isn't unreasonable to believe you can wind up detained for a few hours while the police figure out what is going on. 

 

I'll wait for NJGFs resident OCer to show up in this thread. He has been carrying for quite a while and has more knowledge on the subject than I do.

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I am unsure of the legalities of open carrying in a car just for the sake of carrying due to the guidelines that are similar to NJ which govern handgun transport... I am not %100 convinced you can "carry just to carry" in other words.. sure.. the law says you can open carry in a car.. but does that trump the exempted locations? meaning can you open carry all over PA with a FL ccw license? or do you still need to be transporting within the exempted location? not sure?

 

with all that said if it is in fact legal.. open carry in PA is a mixed bag... in central PA I have open carried in numerous places of business.. including malls.. Lowes.. target.. various restaurants.. and have never had a single negative encounter... I have never been asked to leave.. or anything like that.. but my understanding is as you get closer to the eastern side of the state you will find far more resistance.. you will find places of business with signage that disallows firearms (and they have the legal right to do so)...  so what do you do then? put the gun in your car? are you then simply transporting outside the exemption? and thus breaking the law.. since you are no longer open carrying..

 

I think that if any of you consider open carrying in PA with the substantial amount of changes that are happening... get some clarification... find out if you are even within your rights to do so... make sure that "open carrying in a car with a valid permit" actually trumps the exemption laws.. 

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Seems like you would really have to prepare yourself to be hassled endlessly. But maybe it depends where you are OCing... For example id avoid OC walking to the deli to get a sub or to the coffee shop. But i would do it if I was on my friends property where we shoot. I just dont want to be badgered to death, but then again i don't know what peoples attitudes are towards OC in PA

 

 

I have open carried every day for 6 years and never been hassled. Not just in Lehigh Valley, but the entire Eastern half of the Commonwealth. Including Harrisburg and Philly.

 

Rural has nothing to do with anything.

 

All PA police are taught to leave us the fuck alone during their annual MPOETC training. Back around 10 years ago they were sued about a dozen times for asking people for ID for carrying and they either lost in court or settled every time. The only place this does not hold is Philly, where they are taught they can check your credentials because they are a City of the First Class. Philly has ALSO lost all it's court cases, but they simply tweak their policies slightly each time and still allow their cops to hassle you. Most won't, but some do.

 

Back in the dark ages when people sometimes got hassled, and even today in Philly, the most common denominator was age. It always seemed like the guys and girls who looked early 20s were the ones cops thought they could push around. Just like Jersey, I guess it's universal. They see you late 20s early 30s with a gun on your hip in the open and they know they are just going to get a bunch of aggravation and probably a lawsuit.

 

I would tell NJ residents to have no fear about OC in PA outside of Philly.

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I wouldn't carry without a LTCF or equivalent CCW myself. Too many hassles and loopholes that can get you in trouble, and that isn't even including illegal harassment by the police. I'm not hating on cops, but stroll over to PAFOA and see how many people get harassed WITH LTCFs for OCing. Even if you are 100% legal it isn't unreasonable to believe you can wind up detained for a few hours while the police figure out what is going on. 

 

There are no hassles or loopholes to get you in trouble.

 

Nobody gets harassed with or without LTCF for OC outside of Philly. You ask me to stroll over to PAFOA, I ask you to name a couple.

 

You are being extremely paranoid.

 

If anything bad happens to somebody carrying in PA it goes on PAFOA. I know about 30 people that have OC in PA for the past 5 to 10 years and only one of them (one of our Forefathers ;) ) was ever asked for ID, back in the day, and he won a lawsuit requiring $30K and annual training for PA police officers on OC and how they can't detain you or require ID:

 

(page 51): http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkba/archive/MPOTEC_LEGAL_UPDATE_2009-201.pdf

 

It's legal. It's your God Given Right, and guaranteed under the Pennsylvania and Federal Constitutions. The cops have been trained not to fuck with you for over 6 years.

 

And you are not willing to stick a toe into the shallow end?

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Very helpful, thanks!

 

1. So do I understand correctly that PA LEO aren't even allowed to ask me for ID if I'm open carrying (excluding Philly, etc.)?

2. Where the f#$@ is the New Jersey version of that document????!!!!

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Very helpful, thanks!

 

1. So do I understand correctly that PA LEO aren't even allowed to ask me for ID if I'm open carrying (excluding Philly, etc.)?

2. Where the f#$@ is the New Jersey version of that document????!!!!

PA LEO can ask you if you ever had sex with your mother, your religion, sexual orientation, and the length of your penis. And for your ID. And they may very well do that.

 

They simply cannot require you to provide it. Understand the difference between a question and a lawful demand. When in doubt, ask if it is a request or a demand. Anything but a direct answer of 3 or less words means they are full of shit and it is a request. And if you are not being detained (Ask that question), walk away and ignore them.

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PA LEO can ask you if you ever had sex with your mother, your religion, sexual orientation, and the length of your penis. And for your ID. And they may very well do that.

They simply cannot require you to provide it. Understand the difference between a question and a lawful demand. When in doubt, ask if it is a request or a demand. Anything but a direct answer of 3 or less words means they are full of shit and it is a request. And if you are not being detained (Ask that question), walk away and ignore them.

Mipa - so to confirm, in order to open carry I don't do need a PA license? I'm a bit foggy on the whole issue. Thanks. For the record I do have a Utah ccp

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Mipa - so to confirm, in order to open carry I don't do need a PA license? I'm a bit foggy on the whole issue. Thanks. For the record I do have a Utah ccp

You need to be 18 to OC a handgun in PA. Nothing else. No ID, no carry permit, no nothing.

 

That doesn't apply in Philly - you need a reciprocal or recognized license to have a firearm in public under most circumstances. In Philly, that includes longguns.

 

In (or ON) a vehicle you need a carry permit from any state (all 50 of them) to have a handgun unless you are going to and from the range, etc. Handgun may be loaded on your hip, anywhere else, inside a vehicle it's the same as having a PA LTCF.

 

I am not a lawyer. But that is the law.

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You need to be 18 to OC a handgun in PA. Nothing else. No ID, no carry permit, no nothing.

That doesn't apply in Philly - you need a reciprocal or recognized license to have a firearm in public under most circumstances. In Philly, that includes longguns.

In (or ON) a vehicle you need a carry permit from any state (all 50 of them) to have a handgun unless you are going to and from the range, etc. Handgun may be loaded on your hip, anywhere else, inside a vehicle it's the same as having a PA LTCF.

I am not a lawyer. But that is the law.

Gracias. While not idea, it's usable. Now as a follow up, does open carry mean owb or just visible. If I carry at the 3 or 4 pm position wearing a t shirt that shows the grip is that still "open carry"

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I've been struggling to find anything of value to determine what holster to use to OC.

Suffice to say the LACK of information bothers the hell out of me.

PA defines neither concealed or open carry in any statute... they go by accepted case law and "common sense." :)

 

The best information I could come up with was this thread...

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/15272-my-question-what-constituted-open-carry.html

 

and specifically this post...

http://forum.pafoa.org/188050-post-14.html

 

From that I take away this quote...

EDIT to add: There was a nice article by Ayoob within the past year or two about open carry in NC. He advocated carrying (if you're going to OC and want to be low profile but still "open"): IWB, with a dark gun, in a dark holster, against a dark background, with a retention strap. Personally, I don't see a point in carrying openly if you're going to go the low profile route -- I'd rather carry in an OWB, with retention, and make it look like I don't give a damn if anyone sees me, because it makes it look legitimate and like I have nothing to hide.

I think that'll sum up what I'll do, and it unfortunately involves getting another holster (OWB pancake style it looks like.)

 

edit: to an extent I understand why there's no definition in statute... PA doesn't give a shit either way, and getting a CCW permit is retardedly easy so why WOULDN'T you have one anyways. That doesn't help us though when we've had CC taken away as an option by the AG.

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Do you think that race would hinder a person from OCing? I would a assume that a young black guy with a glock on hip would get more attention from cops and etc a 45+ white guy with a sig on the hip..

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk

I think any young person has a greater chance of making people uncomfortable than an older person, and although extremely unlikely, also a greater chance of being hassled by LEO. For a young black guy versus a 45 year old white guy, doubly so.

 

That being said, you probably have a much greater chance of being mugged in PA than spending a night in jail over legal carry. If a night or a weekend in jail and a $1K lawyer bill would be a tragedy that would completely derail your life then do not do it. If, on the other hand, it is simply the fear of that possibility that concerns you, then get over it and carry away. You'll be fine. I think that would be a reasonable way of approaching the decision.

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I think any young person has a greater chance of making people uncomfortable than an older person, and although extremely unlikely, also a greater chance of being hassled by LEO. For a young black guy versus a 45 year old white guy, doubly so.

 

That being said, you probably have a much greater chance of being mugged in PA than spending a night in jail over legal carry. If a night or a weekend in jail and a $1K lawyer bill would be a tragedy that would completely derail your life then do not do it. If, on the other hand, it is simply the fear of that possibility that concerns you, then get over it and carry away. You'll be fine. I think that would be a reasonable way of approaching the decision.

 

 

I have said this before.. not that it makes it right or wrong.. but the further east you are the more chance of hassle.. also know that businesses can disallow you to carry firearms in them.. 

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