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david8613

what cartridge do you think U.S. army should be using, 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp, 10mm?

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Well, those two are my calibers (9mm & .45acp) so whichever one they adopt will be the one for which the "shortages" will be blamed.... :facepalm:

 

Hopefully, they'll find something totally different.

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Well, those two are my calibers (9mm & .45acp) so whichever one they adopt will be the one for which the "shortages" will be blamed.... :facepalm:

 

Hopefully, they'll find something totally different.

 

And for exactly this reason, they should go with 10mm :lol:

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It will be a new size cartridge.  We've been through 38/357, 9mm, 45ACP.  Homeland LEO has been through 357Sig, 10mm, 40S&W, and 45GAP.  We helped to kill 5.7X28, on Belgium so now we'll reinvent the wheel again.  All for a "does all" sidearm that the troops in the field tells us does nothing.  Will need to be NATO accepted also.  Jr's probably right, unfunded we'll go back to the 9's.

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I've been doing some on the topic of the caliber to  use. The issue that everyone talks about and then ignores is the ability of the rounds to be shot by a wide range of military personnel and by that I mean size, weight and strength and also general proficiency with the firearm. I and several other may be able to shoot a 10mm with good accuracy and get the nose back on target sooner than others even though they may be bigger and stronger....

 

blah blah

 

They go NATO 9mm, just a Sig P226 or the like. ( frame mounted safety)

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I've been doing some on the topic of the caliber to  use. The issue that everyone talks about and then ignores is the ability of the rounds to be shot by a wide range of military personnel and by that I mean size, weight and strength and also general proficiency with the firearm. I and several other may be able to shoot a 10mm with good accuracy and get the nose back on target sooner than others even though they may be bigger and stronger....

 

blah blah

 

They go NATO 9mm, just a Sig P226 or the like. ( frame mounted safety)

 

 

This is how the M9 decision was made.

 

Elite forces that get more training get different weapons.

 

Edit:  9mm not as powerful as the 38spl of 75 years ago?  From the article....   Hog wash!  9mm is just fine for standard troops and in the M9 it requires less training than a bigger bore pistol.

Irony: The 9mm is not quite as powerful as the cartridge which the 45 ACP replaced about 75 years earlier. - See more at: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/07/03/u-s-army-rejects-9mm/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-07-09&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.vDQ5G1F4.dpuf
Edited by Old School

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show me a 10mm that an individual of small stature, compromised strength from a traumatic injury, or any other limiting factor will be able to shoot well under stress. 

 

Everyone loves the 10mm for terminal ballistics. Show me what 10mm offers over 45 or 40 in a load with ball instead of hollow point bullets. You will get serious over-penetration with pretty minimal energy loss.

 

The real answer is that their isnt really a good option with the bullet technology that we are limited to (ala 1899). When you consider the conditions a pistols are used in combat like primary weapons failure, injury making shooting a long gun impossible, etc, the priority should go more towards shootability

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I know it's not practical at all...however, options would be nice.  I'm in the Navy, and although I'll never have to use the M9 other than to qualify/maintain proficiency, I absolutely hate it with a passion.  I know that it's a good firearm, however I simply can't shoot it worth crap.  I feel like I can shoot my 1911 pretty well, even though I've had no training and pretty minimal experience.  That being said, I understand that not everyone can shoot a 1911 because of the recoil, so I know it's not as practical as something like the M9.  Without allowing at least a couple options, it's going to be nearly impossible to cater to everyone's needs.

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Remember - Military needs to use ball ammo so it's all FMJ.  This is why they're not impressed with the performance of 9mm.

 

And the military also has the M11 (Sig P228) in some cases.  Also for national guard I see a mix of everything - including Glocks.

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Since they are limited to FMJ ammo even though we never signed the hague convention is like to see them switch to hot .40 loads or full power 10mm. But in reality if they just started using some +p 9mm fmj they would probably be better off. Less wasted tax dollars and a decent bump in performance from the 9mm. I don't see using modern HP ammo viable because it would be defeated by fairly cheap body armor due to the expansion...

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Also - the pistol must be manufactured in the US....

 

NATO 9mm is hotter than normal as well.  Hotter than +P according to SAAMI.

 

 

 

The ammo industry uses something called SAAMI Standards to establish the pressures that ammo should be loaded to. The SAAMI pressure for 9mm Luger ammo is around 35,000 PSI, and C.I.P (think European SAAMI) rates 9mm Luger ammo at 34,080 PSI. According to documentation, the 9mm NATO rounds are pressured at 36,500 PSI (again according to CIP). That means that when compared to standard 9mm ammo, the 9mm NATO ammo is running a higher pressure, analogous to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.

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This is how the M9 decision was made.

 

Elite forces that get more training get different weapons.

 

Edit:  9mm not as powerful as the 38spl of 75 years ago?  From the article....   Hog wash!  9mm is just fine for standard troops and in the M9 it requires less training than a bigger bore pistol.

Irony: The 9mm is not quite as powerful as the cartridge which the 45 ACP replaced about 75 years earlier. - See more at: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/07/03/u-s-army-rejects-9mm/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2014-07-09&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.vDQ5G1F4.dpuf
 

 

 
Agreed and kind of my point I guess, which is why I say they just change the firearm to a different 9mm caliber pistol. 
1. they keep all the already made 9mm in stock
2. no need for new contracts with ammo manufacturers
3. Everyone already "knows" how to shoot a 9mm, with the exception of controls and recoil differences.
 
The irony is great. They wanted it to fell a horse so they could stop cavalry, which I suppose a .45acp can do but I'm not going to test it out. And after what I suppose was great debate they ended on the weaker 9mm but looky now it isn't up to snuff. Still a good round but I suppose nothing can fit what everyone needs/wants in one caliber. 
 
How about a folding stock to increase the accuracy on the .45acp or 10mm for the "less inclined" military marksman? ok silly and not practical but it could work...   :xD:  ok seems like enough video games for me with that idea.

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Agreed and kind of my point I guess, which is why I say they just change the firearm to a different 9mm caliber pistol. 
1. they keep all the already made 9mm in stock
2. no need for new contracts with ammo manufacturers
3. Everyone already "knows" how to shoot a 9mm, with the exception of controls and recoil differences.
 
The irony is great. They wanted it to fell a horse so they could stop cavalry, which I suppose a .45acp can do but I'm not going to test it out. And after what I suppose was great debate they ended on the weaker 9mm but looky now it isn't up to snuff. Still a good round but I suppose nothing can fit what everyone needs/wants in one caliber. 
 
How about a folding stock to increase the accuracy on the .45acp or 10mm for the "less inclined" military marksman? ok silly and not practical but it could work...   :xD:  ok seems like enough video games for me with that idea.

 

I'm sorry, but changing over to a different 9mm pistol is a HORRIBLE idea.  The issue at hand is that the current M9 does not have the "stopping power" that we want with ball ammo.  Getting new but different 9mm pistols is only going to be an extremely unnecessary financial burden.  Think of what goes into switching to a different firearm.  Researching the pistols (more money is spent on researching new gear in the military than you'd like to know), purchasing the new pistols, purchasing extra magazines for the new pistols, purchasing holsters for the new pistols, qualifying EVERYONE on the new pistols, training all of the armorers how to fix the new pistols.  I work at a Navy/DOE joint base in upstate NY, and I can assure you that there are MANY things that we could use money for that are far more important than replacing our current 9mm pistols with newer 9mm pistols that will be just as ineffective.

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A US company will make a 5.7 x 28 and looky what that Terrorist was able to do at Fort Hood with that round.  As Henry said, it needs to be easy to shoot, and since we're not going back to M-14's because we "need" the firepower of the smaller 5.56 cartridge, the Bean Counters will talk themselves into 20+ round mag capacity 5.7's, you wait and see!  Mark my words it WILL be re-evaluated!

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