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Newtonian

Another Victim of Senseless NJ Laws

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I seldom if ever jump on any bandwagon but was asking if whatever your source divulged about the young lady's past was sufficient to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of NJ"s laws but still qualify for a Pennsylvania CCW permit?......and in turn justify her subsequent prosecution not only in the courts but seemingly by you and some others on this forum?

 

Just askin......

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Since this is receiving National attention. People who were previously unaware of NJ's arcane, antiquated and draconian gun laws are more aware now. But it is also putting the state, it's laws and politics in a bad light and there are a lot of unfortunates tied to this case.

 

 

Because of the national attention. People might be inclined to think that since they can't defend themselves in NJ like they can in other states they might not feel safe. Because of that impression, perhaps those who might have picked the state as a place to vacation at, now look elsewhere to spend their money. Perhaps those who wished to visit for a day or two might have changed their minds. Those who might have wanted to pass through the state might be looking for a different way around it now.  Unfortunately this case has left the impression that honesty may not be the best policy after all.  Unfortunately this case leaves the impression for visitors to the state that while being open and honest with a cop back home is a good thing. They may feel now that may not be the the best approach when it comes to New Jersey.  No I am not anti LEO.

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FWIW, the PTI program director DID recommend her for PTI. She was rejected by the prosecutor with no mention of a prior record.

And a criminal record will generally bar you from PTI. If she does have an arrest record it wouldn't make sense that:

A. She got a carry permit in Philadelphia.

B. She was recommended for PTI.

C. The prosecutors office didn't include that record among the reasons for rejecting her application.

 

Not saying it's impossible, but it does seem unlikely.

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FWIW, the PTI program director DID recommend her for PTI. She was rejected by the prosecutor with no mention of a prior record.

And a criminal record will generally bar you from PTI. If she does have an arrest record it wouldn't make sense that:

A. She got a carry permit in Philadelphia.

B. She was recommended for PTI.

C. The prosecutors office didn't include that record among the reasons for rejecting her application.

 

Not saying it's impossible, but it does seem unlikely.

Precisely my point.....and why I question what PK90's source has to add to the equation.

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Probably some juvenile sealed stuff.

....so "sealed" is still accountable to the present charge? and if sealed why and how would PK90's source have access to it presumably?

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....so "sealed" is still accountable to the present charge? and if sealed why and how would PK90's source have access to it presumably?

 

Or, assuming it was "sealed" somewhere other than NJ, how did the prosecutor have access to it to make that determination?  Apparently, "sealed" isn't exactly "sealed..." <_<

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Since this is receiving National attention. People who were previously unaware of NJ's arcane, antiquated and draconian gun laws are more aware now. But it is also putting the state, it's laws and politics in a bad light and there are a lot of unfortunates tied to this case.

 

 

Because of the national attention. People might be inclined to think that since they can't defend themselves in NJ like they can in other states they might not feel safe. Because of that impression, perhaps those who might have picked the state as a place to vacation at, now look elsewhere to spend their money. Perhaps those who wished to visit for a day or two might have changed their minds. Those who might have wanted to pass through the state might be looking for a different way around it now.  Unfortunately this case has left the impression that honesty may not be the best policy after all.  Unfortunately this case leaves the impression for visitors to the state that while being open and honest with a cop back home is a good thing. They may feel now that may not be the the best approach when it comes to New Jersey.  No I am not anti LEO.

 

The best approach when it comes to New Jersey is to avoid it like the plague.

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GOA (Gun Owners Of America) has a page about a reciprocity bill by Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-IN) and it mentions Shaneen Allen.

http://gunowners.org/a08202014a.htm

 

 

In fact GOA says that there is/was a Pro-2nd Amendment Rally in front of the Atlantic County Superior Court in New Jersey  to protest the judge and prosecutor in her case.

 

There is a Facebook page about the rally. I just found out about it, I would have mentioned it earlier if I heard about it earlier.

 

https://www.facebook.com/events/818912281461216/

 

 

(From the  Facebook Page)

 

"If you cannot come to Protest tomorrow, then please call all numbers below, to demand phony gun charges be dropped against this law abiding citizen Shaneen Allen immediately and complain that Judge/Prosecutor are violating her/our 2nd Amendment Right to keep and bear arms!

NJ Governor Chris Chistie - 609-292-6000
Attorney General John Hoffman - 609-292-8740
Prosecutor James P. McLain - 609-909-7800
Hon. Judge Michael Donio - 609-909-8204
Media Guy Jay McKeen - 609-909-7198"

 

At least this is getting more national attention.

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Jim Gearhart was shaming the pro 2A folks this morning on 101.5. Apparently about 12 people showed up at the Atlantic County Court in support of Shaneen Allen. I have no excuse. Probably could have made it back to CNJ in time for my evening job. Anybody else? Maybe it just wasn't publicized well enough.

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...perhaps those who might have picked the state (NJ) as a place to vacation at, now look elsewhere to spend their money. Perhaps those who wished to visit for a day or two might have changed their minds. Those who might have wanted to pass through the state might be looking for a different way around it now.... .

This is our only hope to stop having new BS anti laws passed. The crappy NJ politicians only speak in terms of money. If the money stops flowing into NJ, maybe they will not be re-elected. When I found out about the push for the 10 round mag ban again this year, I cancelled siding/windows on my home, and told the contractor why. Instead of 40k into NJ economy, I spent $200 on some paint. I also did not vacation here this year, and instead went to Virginia. I was "used" to the current laws, but the new bs ones and all the future proposed laws pushed me over the edge. I am looking to relocate within my company within 2 years. My wife and I are mature levels in our fields, the new home owners will not be, so NJ will take another hit in their tax revenues.

 

I don't see change coming here anytime soon, maybe this attention will help. If by chance things do change within the next year, I would stay and support NJ.

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I am still not sold on this "I didn't know any better" excuse. My Spidey senses are tingling....

Okay....let's just say your "Spidey sense" is correct for a moment......that would leave 3 possibilities IMHO......

 

1: The woman is an idiot and just couldn't wait to show off her brand new firearm and Philadelphia CCW permit that she chose a NJ cop to volunteer her proudly earned legal right regardless of the consequences because........she has a little extra cash and about 7 years to spare.

 

2: She's a plant by some yet unnamed and shadowy pro NJ CCW organization who is not only funding her legal bills in order to shame NJ into must issue CCW rights for all but maintained her as a "sleeper" just building her reputation and awaiting the right opportunity to cut her loose with the understanding it was basically a "Mission Impossible" undertaking and will disavow her if Nappen fails.

 

3: Your "Spidey sense" ain't worth shit.

 

I'm not sticking up for the young lady as she clearly made some very questionable choices but I don't understand why some on this forum choose the character assassination route? Could it be because some" high and tight" LEO chose to forgo discretion in this case and subjected this admitted not too bright individual to the injustices we hoped we would not endure and indeed  lambast at every opportunity?...or is it just the "Black Thing"?

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Who is "Assassinating" anyone's character? I never said a bad word about her, I am simply reserving judgement about a situation where all the facts are not known by me. To me something doesn't add up. I don't know what it is, but something is missing in this case and it has nothing tondo with your "scenarios".

 

I am giving all involved the benefit of the doubt, Her, the Officers involved and the Courts.

 

Oh and let me tell you something about discretion on the job - it is a motherfucker. For every one person you try to help, 3 shove it up your ass.

 

Everyone we interact with has a camera/recorder and thinks they are Mickey Spillane. You give someone a break and most likely it will

Come back to bite you in the ass.

 

Quick example from just 2 weeks ago: I stop a speeder for doing 15mph over - 40 in a 25. I explain why've stopped them and write a ticket for 30 in a 25 instead of the 40 they were doing. I explain I am giving them a break. They come to court, argue that I lied on an Official Document and that they aren't guilty of doing 30/25 because they were doing 40/25. They play an audio recording of me explaining the whole thing to them (I don't care they recorded me, I recorded them too, as per policy) including stating that "I clocked you at 40 but wrote the ticket for 30" to help them out. The summons is now dismissed, my Judge is pissed at me, and I now have a Pending IA COMPLAINT for falsifying an official document and am looking at possible suspension days.

 

This is just the most recent example, and for a fairly petty infraction rant isn't even criminal. Can you imaging if I have this driver a break for a loaded gun? I can go on and on and on, and so can everyone I work for.

 

Another guy I work with is looking at charges for using discretion for a black driver and cutting him a break for his first offense for this particular infraction but not a white driver (third offense) on a following traffic stop 10 minutes later for the same infraction.

 

Discretion is quickly going away in the name of accountability and fairness.

 

And where the fuck are you getting "is it just the black thing" from? You calling me a racist?

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Who is "Assassinating" anyone's character? I never said a bad word about her, I am simply reserving judgement about a situation where all the facts are not known by me. To me something doesn't add up. I don't know what it is, but something is missing in this case and it has nothing tondo with your "scenarios".

 

I am giving all involved the benefit of the doubt, Her, the Officers involved and the Courts.

 

Oh and let me tell you something about discretion on the job - it is a motherfucker. For every one person you try to help, 3 shove it up your ass.

 

Everyone we interact with has a camera/recorder and thinks they are Mickey Spillane. You give someone a break and most likely it will

Come back to bite you in the ass.

 

Quick example from just 2 weeks ago: I stop a speeder for doing 15mph over - 40 in a 25. I explain why've stopped them and write a ticket for 30 in a 25 instead of the 40 they were doing. I explain I am giving them a break. They come to court, argue that I lied on an Official Document and that they aren't guilty of doing 30/25 because they were doing 40/25. They play an audio recording of me explaining the whole thing to them (I don't care they recorded me, I recorded them too, as per policy) including stating that "I clocked you at 40 but wrote the ticket for 30" to help them out. The summons is now dismissed, my Judge is pissed at me, and I now have a Pending IA COMPLAINT for falsifying an official document and am looking at possible suspension days.

 

This is just the most recent example, and for a fairly petty infraction rant isn't even criminal. Can you imaging if I have this driver a break for a loaded gun? I can go on and on and on, and so can everyone I work for.

 

Another guy I work with is looking at charges for using discretion for a black driver and cutting him a break for his first offense for this particular infraction but not a white driver (third offense) on a following traffic stop 10 minutes later for the same infraction.

 

Discretion is quickly going away in the name of accountability and fairness.

 

And where the fuck are you getting "is it just the black thing" from? You calling me a racist?

......in a non literal interpretation of the immortal bard of Avon's words..... "Me thinks thou doth protest too much".

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Quick example from just 2 weeks ago: I stop a speeder for doing 15mph over - 40 in a 25. I explain why've stopped them and write a ticket for 30 in a 25 instead of the 40 they were doing. I explain I am giving them a break. They come to court, argue that I lied on an Official Document and that they aren't guilty of doing 30/25 because they were doing 40/25. They play an audio recording of me explaining the whole thing to them (I don't care they recorded me, I recorded them too, as per policy) including stating that "I clocked you at 40 but wrote the ticket for 30" to help them out. The summons is now dismissed, my Judge is pissed at me, and I now have a Pending IA COMPLAINT for falsifying an official document and am looking at possible suspension days.

Wow, what a dick.

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That's f'd up H.E.

 

Don't understand why it would be dismissed. Cops have been cutting people slack doing exactly what you did forever.

 

It's ridiculous that you could get a suspension.

 

Was the judge pissed because of lost revenue due to a smaller fine and less points?

 

Jerkoff judge.

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The Judge is a good dude. He didn't embarass me in court or anything (I have seen Judges do that and man, it's awful). He's just mad that I put myself in this situation in the first place. He has told us this could/would/will/has happened. He wants us to charge what we see or don't write anything. He says to let the prosecutor and him give breaks and reduce charges exactly to avoid this situation. And truth be told frankly, he's right.

 

Anyway, the heart of the matter is that while technically Cops have discretion to ignore/reduce/not charge a lot of things (but not everything) sometimes using it just isn't worth it.

 

Discretion can still mean charges, just maybe less charges, or charges reduced in their seriousness, or maybe simply putting a charge on a local ordinance instead of a summons complaint, or maybe a summons complaint instead of a warrant, or requesting a lower bail or an ROR. It doesn't always mean doing nothing.

 

And don't forget, discretion goes both ways. I can decide to charge every single little thing that fits to it's fullest extent, request maximum penalties, put everything criminal on a Warrant, ask for the highest bail possible, refuse any plea deals at court, refuse any merging of charges, and insist on trials for every charge I write, if I wish.

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The Judge is a good dude. He didn't embarass me in court or anything (I have seen Judges do that and man, it's awful). He's just mad that I put myself in this situation in the first place. He has told us this could/would/will/has happened. He wants us to charge what we see or don't write anything. He says to let the prosecutor and him give breaks and reduce charges exactly to avoid this situation. And truth be told frankly, he's right.

 

I agree that's probably the safest thing for you as LEOs, but I have my doubts as to whether the justice system will follow through with that "discretion."  Prosecutors are very hungry, as we are presently witnessing in re: Ms. Allen, and as I experienced personally as a juror.  The public at large wants more "justice" than they believe is forthcoming presently from the system, and prosecutors are under pressure to fulfill that. They'll often go to the point of bringing weaker cases to trial (which grand juries just seem to "rubber stamp"), hoping that the petit jury will "reverse nullify" if needed (i.e. find guilty even if there is sufficient "reasonable doubt"). Just depends on the jury.

 

But that's not your issue.  I hope this isn't too hard a hit for you. :)

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Some people - most people actually - deserve a break. I know I will give breaks on the road again, I just may be more careful about how I explain the "break" to them in the future.

 

While I can still be sued civilly, and there is the possibility of days off, I really don't see this turning into much. I may get a counseling sheet in my file (which isn't discipline, just a documentation that you made a mistake) which comes out in 6 months as long as I don't "make another mistake". But, it is still stressful, it is still a point against me in any future promotional processes, and if known by a defense attorney it can be used against me in any and every trial for anything I arrest or cite someone for, for the rest of my career. So it is a bit of an ass-ache and a constant reminder that sometimes using my discretion just isn't worth it.

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I'm not sticking up for the young lady as she clearly made some very questionable choices but I don't understand why some on this forum choose the character assassination route? Could it be because some" high and tight" LEO chose to forgo discretion in this case and subjected this admitted not too bright individual to the injustices we hoped we would not endure and indeed  lambast at every opportunity?...or is it just the "Black Thing"?

 

 

Who is "Assassinating" anyone's character? I never said a bad word about her, I am simply reserving judgement about a situation where all the facts are not known by me. To me something doesn't add up. I don't know what it is, but something is missing in this case and it has nothing tondo with your "scenarios".

 

I am giving all involved the benefit of the doubt, Her, the Officers involved and the Courts.

 

Oh and let me tell you something about discretion on the job - it is a motherfucker. For every one person you try to help, 3 shove it up your ass.

 

Everyone we interact with has a camera/recorder and thinks they are Mickey Spillane. You give someone a break and most likely it will

Come back to bite you in the ass.

 

Quick example from just 2 weeks ago: I stop a speeder for doing 15mph over - 40 in a 25. I explain why've stopped them and write a ticket for 30 in a 25 instead of the 40 they were doing. I explain I am giving them a break. They come to court, argue that I lied on an Official Document and that they aren't guilty of doing 30/25 because they were doing 40/25. They play an audio recording of me explaining the whole thing to them (I don't care they recorded me, I recorded them too, as per policy) including stating that "I clocked you at 40 but wrote the ticket for 30" to help them out. The summons is now dismissed, my Judge is pissed at me, and I now have a Pending IA COMPLAINT for falsifying an official document and am looking at possible suspension days.

 

This is just the most recent example, and for a fairly petty infraction rant isn't even criminal. Can you imaging if I have this driver a break for a loaded gun? I can go on and on and on, and so can everyone I work for.

 

Another guy I work with is looking at charges for using discretion for a black driver and cutting him a break for his first offense for this particular infraction but not a white driver (third offense) on a following traffic stop 10 minutes later for the same infraction.

 

Discretion is quickly going away in the name of accountability and fairness.

 

And where the fuck are you getting "is it just the black thing" from? You calling me a racist?

 

 

The Judge is a good dude. He didn't embarass me in court or anything (I have seen Judges do that and man, it's awful). He's just mad that I put myself in this situation in the first place. He has told us this could/would/will/has happened. He wants us to charge what we see or don't write anything. He says to let the prosecutor and him give breaks and reduce charges exactly to avoid this situation. And truth be told frankly, he's right.

 

Anyway, the heart of the matter is that while technically Cops have discretion to ignore/reduce/not charge a lot of things (but not everything) sometimes using it just isn't worth it.

 

Discretion can still mean charges, just maybe less charges, or charges reduced in their seriousness, or maybe simply putting a charge on a local ordinance instead of a summons complaint, or maybe a summons complaint instead of a warrant, or requesting a lower bail or an ROR. It doesn't always mean doing nothing.

 

And don't forget, discretion goes both ways. I can decide to charge every single little thing that fits to it's fullest extent, request maximum penalties, put everything criminal on a Warrant, ask for the highest bail possible, refuse any plea deals at court, refuse any merging of charges, and insist on trials for every charge I write, if I wish.

 

She broke the law, I don't understand why everyone here is defending her so vehemently. Sometimes I think our wants for our rights to carry cloud some judgement.

 

The LEO who made the stop had no way of knowing that she was just an innocent little girl who made a mistake - or - was the next ISIS wannabe in training.

 

Discretion in a traffic ticket is one thing, and what a dick to turn that against the LEO.

But, think for a minute, suppose the LEO let her go with a warning, and she drove up to the town where my son works or any other town, and gets stopped again for any reason and now uses the firearm on an unsuspecting LEO?

 

If you are going to carry a gun, you better make dam well sure you are legal and carrying it for legal purposes, or your butt gets locked up. I want my kid to come home every night, as well as every other LEO out there.

 

There are just way too many stories like this just released video.

 

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/alpharetta/2014/08/21/alpharetta-shooting-video/14413615/

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