Another Victim of Senseless NJ Laws

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Discretion should be the prosecutor's decision, not the cop's.

 

You can't act like the officer should operate with the same level of discretion on an offense which is legally equivalent to a felony as he would with a simple traffic violation.

 

Fair enough... I'll redirect onto the prosecutors, then.  Why wasn't the lady offered PTI?   As for the LEO, I'd still like to know what the official department policy is on the issue (i.e. "zero tolerance," or something less than that) and if there is any "discretion in enforcement" permitted... any at all.

 

At a former company of mine on the NJ NY state border (circa. 1986), some of the employees set up a practical joke on a fellow employee involving a NY LEO coming to the company HQ in NJ to "arrest" the fellow employee "in jest."  The "officer" finally arrived, but 45 minutes late. When he arrived, he was not armed (empty holster). After the joke was played, the officer explained the reason for his late arrival. He had forgotten to leave his service weapon in NY and crossed over to NJ in his patrol vehicle with his side arm. He was stopped immediately by the NJSP. However, he was not arrested. He was ordered to go back to NY and leave his service weapon there, whereupon, he could return to NJ. Thus, the delay.

 

Apparently, there was, at least, a little "discretion" that day, felony notwithstanding.  I'm just wondering why there wasn't any, this time...  Some (not necessarily me) are arguing that the subject's race/gender might have been factors in the LEO's decision to arrest immediately... perhaps also in the prosecutor's decision to not offer PTI.  After all, (assuming the encounter was not dash cam'ed), the officer might simply "not have heard her correctly..."   And, without an arrest, there would have been nothing for the prosecutor to do at all.  

 

As for the law being the "equivalent of a felony," perhaps that is the root issue here, and what we need to change, but I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes.

[maintenanceguy 510]

The officer must follow the law.  The highest law of the land says she can carry.  Some of us couldn't be police officers because it would have required us to compromise our integrity and beliefs.  I have to assume that anyone who does a particular job is morally comfortable with the job they do.

[Newtonian 453]

Fair enough... I'll redirect onto the prosecutors, then.  Why wasn't the lady offered PTI?   As for the LEO, I'd still like to know what the official department policy is on the issue (i.e. "zero tolerance," or something less than that) and if there is any "discretion in enforcement" permitted... any at all.

 

At a former company of mine on the NJ NY state border (circa. 1986), some of the employees set up a practical joke on a fellow employee involving a NY LEO coming to the company HQ in NJ to "arrest" the fellow employee "in jest."  The "officer" finally arrived, but 45 minutes late. When he arrived, he was not armed (empty holster). After the joke was played, the officer explained the reason for his late arrival. He had forgotten to leave his service weapon in NY and crossed over to NJ in his patrol vehicle with his side arm. He was stopped immediately by the NJSP. However, he was not arrested. He was ordered to go back to NY and leave his service weapon there, whereupon, he could return to NJ. Thus, the delay.

 

Apparently, there was, at least, a little "discretion" that day, felony notwithstanding.  I'm just wondering why there wasn't any, this time...  Some (not necessarily me) are arguing that the subject's race/gender might have been factors in the LEO's decision to arrest immediately... perhaps also in the prosecutor's decision to not offer PTI.  After all, (assuming the encounter was not dash cam'ed), the officer might simply "not have heard her correctly..."   And, without an arrest, there would have been nothing for the prosecutor to do at all.  

 

As for the law being the "equivalent of a felony," perhaps that is the root issue here, and what we need to change, but I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes.

You don't think cops treat other cops differently than they treat civilians? A long time ago one of the NY area papers ran a story on NY City cops who live in Orange and Rockland counties (and parts even farther north-west) who drove down the Palisades Interstate Pkway with their weapons on their way to work. I'm sure NJ State Police have stopped them for speeding 10,000 times over the last 50 years. I never heard of one of them getting arrested for possessing a gun. In fact I've never heard of a cop being arrested for weapons unless he was perhaps supplying them to Hamas.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

You don't think cops treat other cops differently than they treat civilians? A long time ago one of the NY area papers ran a story on NY City cops who live in Orange and Rockland counties (and parts even farther north-west) who drove down the Palisades Interstate Pkway with their weapons on their way to work. I'm sure NJ State Police have stopped them for speeding 10,000 times over the last 50 years. I never heard of one of them getting arrested for possessing a gun. In fact I've never heard of a cop being arrested for weapons unless he was perhaps supplying them to Hamas.

 

Precisely my original point.... there is *some* discretion, even in re: a serious felony. My question is, why is there none (so far) in *this* particular case?

[Newtonian 453]

Precisely my original point.... there is *some* discretion, even in re: a serious felony. My question is, why was there none (so far) in *this* particular case?

I must seriously disagree. There are huge qualitative and quantitative differences between how cops treat each other and how they treat everyone else. Like night and day. We are truly two distinct classes of citizen when it comes to arrest, prosecution, and conviction.

 

It's not discretion at all, it's an unwritten policy that they don't arrest cops for weapons violations. It's the same as if a cop stops another cop on the same force for minor speeding. The "interview" lasts as long as it takes to exchange niceties. Hell, even a PBA card ("he supports us financially") has been known to get dangerous drivers off the hook instead of off the road.

 

The irony here is if the prosecutor had funneled this lady into PTI this case would not have made her into a cause celebre. Does this notoriety/publicity help our cause to bring a measure of sanity to NJ gun laws, or does it strengthen the antis' arguments? The fact that the "perp" is a woman, black, professional, single mother should cause liberal hearts to skip a beat. Had she actually done something wrong -- leaving the scene of an accident, running over an old lady, stealing clothing from a designer store, they'd be out in droves in her defense.

 

In addition to being many other unflattering things, the anti-gun philosophy is characterized by unyielding, hard-hearted hatred of everything good. 

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I must seriously disagree. There are huge qualitative and quantitative differences between how cops treat each other and how they treat everyone else. Like night and day. We are truly two distinct classes of citizen when it comes to arrest, prosecution, and conviction.

 

It's not discretion at all, it's an unwritten policy that they don't arrest cops for weapons violations...

 

Nonetheless, it isn't "zero tolerance" either since, obviously, not everyone is being arrested for these violations. And as long as it isn't zero tolerance, my question stands.... Why hasn't there been any "discretion/unwritten policy" for this lady (as of yet)?

 

The irony here is if the prosecutor had funneled this lady into PTI this case would not have made her into a cause celebre.

 

Even more irony... if the LEO hadn't arrested her, the prosecutor would have had nothing to consider... might not even have known about it.

 

Look,  all I'm asking is, "what went through the LEOs mind when s/he busted her?" Was s/he adhering to policy? Was this "personal?"  Or, was there some other motivation? There's a lot we don't know (or at least I don't)... How many LEOs were on the scene when it happened? If more than just the arresting officer, it would be a lot harder to deviate from "policy." Likewise, if they were using dash cams to record the encounter...   But, otherwise, it's not like the LEO personally saw the weapon in plain sight and had to take action.  the LEO could have simply "not have heard her correctly" and let her go anyway, if s/he really wanted to. S/he didn't.  I just want to know why, is all.

[JohnnyB 4,322]

She started the snowball rolling down the hill by bringing a loaded weapon into the PRNJ.

The LEO sped it up by arresting her instead of having her secure the weapon and immediately return to PA with a stern warning.

The press got wind of this story and published it everywhere. Now everyone is watching this case.

The Prosecutor grants PTI and a fine but no jail time and the message goes out to the world that NJ does not really enforce their gun laws.

The Prosecutor thinks more people from PA will decide to bring weapons into NJ because they feel they probably won't do jail time if caught.

The Prosecutor is going to make an example of her and throw the book at her. The Press will report it all over the place.

The chance of anyone making the same mistake she made is greatly diminished.

The poor lady and her family will suffer so that the PRNJ can make a point!!!!

I only hope her story gets National attention so that all may know what we here on this board know all too well.......NJ's GUN LAWS SUCK!!!!!

[PK90 3,570]

Nicely stated JohnnyB

[JohnnyB 4,322]

She appeared in court today. Here is the report. Like I stated above, they are looking to make an example here!

 

"A New Jersey judge denied a motion to dismiss charges Tuesday against a Philadelphia mother who mistakenly entered New Jersey, where she was stopped for a traffic violation and found in possession of a handgun loaded with hollow-point bullets.

Shaneen Allen, 27, who is legally permitted to carry a concealed firearm in Pennsylvania, was pulled over in New Jersey's Atlantic County after making an unsafe lane change in the early morning hours of Oct. 1. She told the officer she had a .380 Berse Thunder handgun during the traffic stop.

Superior Court Judge Michael Donio also denied a motion to overturn a decision not to allow Allen to participate in a pretrial intervention program to avoid jail time.

Allen rejected a prosecutor's offer to serve 3 1/2 years in prison, her attorney, Evan Nappen, told FoxNews.com.

"That's exactly what should be the solution here," Nappen said, referring to the intervention program. "So we're looking forward to that jury trial."

A trial date has been set for Oct. 6, said Nappen, who feels his client may find more leniency from jurors.

"I sure do, it's an incredibly sympathetic case that shouldn't have to go to trial," he said. "But I'm confident that 12 ordinary people who understand the injustice here and will correct it."

Allen, who has no prior criminal record, told FoxNews.com last month that she's very concerned about the future of her young children, Niaire, 10, and Sincere, 3.

"I'm very much worried because I have two kids who depend on me," Allen said. "And I'm doing this all by myself."

Allen said she acquired the gun legally just a week prior to her arrest. She was headed to Atlantic City, N.J., in the early-morning hours to prepare for her son’s birthday party, which was being held three days later.

Allen purchased the gun for protection after being robbed twice in the past year, she said, adding that she never even fired it and feels somewhat snake-bitten by the entire ordeal.

“It’s definitely a freak thing,” she said. “I was trying to do a good thing and it turned out so bad — and just like that. I don’t know how to explain it, I really don’t.”

According to Nappen, potential jurors could invoke jury nullification, a constitutional doctrine allowing juries to acquit defendants who are technically guilty, but don't deserve to be punished. It can apply in all states, but attorneys are generally not permitted to introduce the concept to jurors".

[70gto 142]

This story needs to be get out in every venue and if people raise enough of a stink, then maybe, just maybe they will reconsider changing the law so that a judge may have discretion again in a case by case basis. She did a break the law, but this is not an instance where I believe 3 years in the slammer is justified, family ruined,  criminal record, kids displaced. A serious WTF here.

[antimatter 139]

Way to go NJ!!!  (sarcasm of course)  gotta keep wasting those tax dollars!

The only issue i see is that the media will just spin it to make her look like a criminal and try to gain steam with that.

Best of luck to her with the trial.

[ryan_j 0]

She started the snowball rolling down the hill by bringing a loaded weapon into the PRNJ.

The LEO sped it up by arresting her instead of having her secure the weapon and immediately return to PA with a stern warning.

The press got wind of this story and published it everywhere. Now everyone is watching this case.

The Prosecutor grants PTI and a fine but no jail time and the message goes out to the world that NJ does not really enforce their gun laws.

The Prosecutor thinks more people from PA will decide to bring weapons into NJ because they feel they probably won't do jail time if caught.

The Prosecutor is going to make an example of her and throw the book at her. The Press will report it all over the place.

The chance of anyone making the same mistake she made is greatly diminished.

The poor lady and her family will suffer so that the PRNJ can make a point!!!!

I only hope her story gets National attention so that all may know what we here on this board know all too well.......NJ's GUN LAWS SUCK!!!!!

 

 

You are exactly correct.

 

In fact, the prosecutor denied PTI, and the reason cited was "deter" which means that they want to make an example of her.

 

This is THE example of how NJ gun laws were not meant for criminals, but rather, the law abiding citizen.

 

I think it might backfire on them though. People are already talking boycotts, and the NRA and others are pushing national CCW reciprocity. If the Senate flips in November, it could happen. This might push it over the edge, IMO. All over the country they're talking about how Shaneen Allen was unfairly treated and how NJ sucks. 

[antimatter 139]

You are exactly correct.

 

In fact, the prosecutor denied PTI, and the reason cited was "deter" which means that they want to make an example of her.

 

This is THE example of how NJ gun laws were not meant for criminals, but rather, the law abiding citizen.

 

I think it might backfire on them though. People are already talking boycotts, and the NRA and others are pushing national CCW reciprocity. If the Senate flips in November, it could happen. This might push it over the edge, IMO. All over the country they're talking about how Shaneen Allen was unfairly treated and how NJ sucks. 

I could not agree more. 

[remixer 1,645]

(The LEO sped it up by arresting her instead of having her secure the weapon and immediately return to PA with a stern warning.)

 

 

I dont think any LEO would have done that... It puts his job at risk if she did not return to PA and ended up Pulling that gun out in self defense while still in the state,

[BlueLineFish 615]

(The LEO sped it up by arresting her instead of having her secure the weapon and immediately return to PA with a stern warning.)

 

 

I dont think any LEO would have done that... It puts his job at risk if she did not return to PA and ended up Pulling that gun out in self defense while still in the state,

Unfortunately today a police officers greatest tool, discretion, is taken away. Doing the right thing will get you jammed up in a heartbeat. It sucks but there are still ways it could be done. Personally depending on how far she was from the border i could have made sure she got back into Pennsy by following her there. Maybe that wasnt possible.

[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

Unfortunately today a police officers greatest tool, discretion, is taken away. Doing the right thing will get you jammed up in a heartbeat. It sucks but there are still ways it could be done. Personally depending on how far she was from the border i could have made sure she got back into Pennsy by following her there. Maybe that wasnt possible.

 

That's admirable of you to think about, but tbh, I would've done things by the book if I were in the officers shoes in this situation. As much as the law makes no sense at all, the fact remains that it is a law. As much as we disagree with NJ gun laws, we all abide by it. If any of us were to travel to another state, I'm sure every single one of us would research that state's carry laws to make sure we were in accordance. While I do believe the officer had ever right to arrest her, I do hope and believe the charges should be dismissed, which of course will probably not happen in NJ.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Unfortunately today a police officers greatest tool, discretion, is taken away. Doing the right thing will get you jammed up in a heartbeat. It sucks but there are still ways it could be done. Personally depending on how far she was from the border i could have made sure she got back into Pennsy by following her there. Maybe that wasnt possible.

 

And I'm sure the advent of "dash/body" cams aren't helping, either.  Then again, those can be "double-edged" swords.  We don't know if any were there. We also don't know (or at least I don't) if there were multiple officers at the scene (or the watch cmdr.), thus, making "discretion" potentially more difficult.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

Hickok45 commented on this:  https://twitter.com/hickok45/status/496728552117911552

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

More recent news article with some more details (she was jailed for 46 days because she missed a court date and had a fugitive warrant, so she was picked up during a traffic stop subsequent to the one where she disclosed her illegal possession):

 

http://articles.philly.com/2014-08-05/news/52433561_1_local-gun-range-ray-rice-carry-permits

[melrose 0]

No PTI for Shaneen Allen charged with a non-violent victimless crime yet Ray Rice gets PTI for knocking his fiance unconscious in an A.C. elevator.

Something wrong here?

[njpilot 671]

They were talking about it on 101.5 this morning and every caller I heard was against this prosecution.

 

Let's not forget, this young woman is not a gun enthusiast. She bought a gun to protect herself because she was robbed twice this year.

 

Many people don't know they can't carry across state lines.

 

Remember the nurse from TN at the Ground Zero Memorial? The jeweler from IN at the Empire State Building.

 

Driving is a privilege and our licenses are good in all 50 states.

 

The Right to Keep and Bear arms is a protected right and should be legal in all 50 states. 

[45Doll 5,874]

Here's the link to the latest story and comments:

 

http://www.nj.com/south/index.ssf/2014/08/atlantic_county_judge_rejects_philadelphia_womans_bid_to_dismiss_gun_charge.html

 

There was one comment I thought was instructive.

 

"This case will pointedly clarify the idiotic essence of the gun control zealots' strategy. Rather than focus on actual deeds that are 'mala in se', they are obsessed with creating 10,000 'mala prohibita' laws and regulations to placate their real (and irrational) fear of guns. Not violence. And not violent people.

 

This woman commits no actual physical offense on or to anyone. She does no harm, and causes no damage. She simply fails to investigate and then navigate the maze of ARBITRARY GUN LAWS AND REGULATIONS constructed by the hoplophobic Democrat legislators in NJ. And then the persecutor (sic) (a Democrat?) goes AH HA! WE'VE GOT YOU!!!

 

Notice that the persecutor (sic) says this must be a deterrent for similar activity. Which activity? Not successfully navigating the mine fields of NJ law. So we're going to slam her in jail for three years and give her a lifelong felony record for being ignorant.

 

And that's how to prevent violent crime!"

 

This is why NJ gun laws are completely ineffective. The concentrate 100% on creating 'mala prohibitum' circumstances to catch law abiding citizens in legal traps, rather then remove actual bad-deed-doers from our society.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

Do we know for certain what the EXACT charges are?  I'm curious if the add-ons (like hollow point possession outside the "allowable areas") will be brought forth, bargained away or disregarded all together.

[illy 1]

2nd deg Unlawful possession of a handgun and 4th degree possession of HPs.

 

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Complaint-Indictment-Shaneen-Allen.pdf

[ryan_j 0]

And I'm sure the advent of "dash/body" cams aren't helping, either. Then again, those can be "double-edged" swords. We don't know if any were there. We also don't know (or at least I don't) if there were multiple officers at the scene (or the watch cmdr.), thus, making "discretion" potentially more difficult.

Pretty sure the officer had at least a dash cam and possibly a body mic. IIRC it was NJSP that made the arrest

[HBecwithFn7 296]

2nd deg Unlawful possession of a handgun and 4th degree possession of HPs.

 

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Complaint-Indictment-Shaneen-Allen.pdf

 

3rd Degree unlawful possession, actually, per the complaint documents. Which also aligns with the proposed time she is facing. 2nd degree would be 5-10yrs. 3rd degree is 3-5.

[Midwest 28]

Since this is already a national story, it is going to shed light on New Jersey's archaic and draconian gun laws. It would be nice if the NRA , GOA and other pro-gun organizations would start taking more interest in New Jersey. With Nappen defending her, I think he will help put New Jersey's gun laws 'on trial'  in a matter of speaking. I hope there is some good that comes out of this. Perhaps Nappen can make quite a few media appearances and shed the spotlight on NJ even further. I think it might help.

 

I think Gov. Christie needs to talk about  NJ gun laws in general and this case on some national media outlet like Fox News and not just some local station.  If he wants to look good to the Republicans and possibly insure his political career in an Republican  Administration he needs to be asked if he would support and sign a conceal carry bill if the bill came before him. 

 

I have seen a comment somewhere here on njgunforums that Christie allegedly said "NJ is special" when the topic of carry in NJ came up. Not sure what that means, but that won't play to the rest of the country. My observation as an outsider is that NJ politicians are stuck in the early 1980's when Handgun Control and a "Million Commie Mommies" made some noise and a few people listened. 

 

Majority of the reason the state has low gun ownership is because of that damned Firearms ID card scheme orchestrated by former NJ Attorney General Arthur Sills in 1966. Sills as some of you might know also helped Thomas Dodd with the 1968 Gun Control act! Sills participated in the "Dodd (gun control) Hearings"  in 1965 . As most of you know, the "Dodd Hearings" lead up to the 1968 GCA.

 

No I don't have the answer and if I think I have the answer it would probably wrong anyway. But keep on keeping on. The rest of the country is starting to listen.

[revenger 473]

Not sure if this was covered elsewhere but 101.5 covered this topic this morning and said a politician (not sure who, didn't recognize the name)   wanted sponsor a bill that would protect American citizens who for whatever reason find themselves behind enemy lines and get caught with a gun and they are permit holders from their home state that the judge has to be more lenient on them.   anyone else catch the name of the politician,  I would like to call him and let him know that WE, NJ citizens are also entitled to our constitutional rights.      

 Also sounds like this will be a jury trial,  what's the chance of educating the jury on "jury nullification" for this case.  Potential jurists need to learn their duties on unconstitutional laws.  It would be nice if the jury shoved it up the prosecutors ass. 

[HBecwithFn7 296]

Not sure if this was covered elsewhere but 101.5 covered this topic this morning and said a politician (not sure who, didn't recognize the name)   wanted sponsor a bill that would protect American citizens who for whatever reason find themselves behind enemy lines and get caught with a gun and they are permit holders from their home state that the judge has to be more lenient on them.   anyone else catch the name of the politician,  I would like to call him and let him know that WE, NJ citizens are also entitled to our constitutional rights.      

 Also sounds like this will be a jury trial,  what's the chance of educating the jury on "jury nullification" for this case.  Potential jurists need to learn their duties on unconstitutional laws.  It would be nice if the jury shoved it up the prosecutors ass. 

 

Very Unlikely in NJ - Jury Nullification....  

[JohnnyB 4,322]

Very Unlikely in NJ - Jury Nullification....  

I don't see why, based on the recent Federal Court rulings, why a jury in the PRNJ could not nullify due to the very fact that NJ's law is unconstitutional.

The Federal Courts have found that self defense outside of the home is at the very heart of the 2nd Amendment.

If the jurors deliberate and find her guilty of violating the laws of PRNJ, but at the same time, based on recent Federal Court decisions, also feel that the

laws of NJ in this case are unconstitutional. They could nullify and find her not guilty!  Why not in NJ???  The Constitution applies here as it does in every state!

 

The only problem I see is that they most likely won't even know what jury nullification is, let alone knowing it is one of their options. I would love to see this case

appealed all the way to SCOTUS. Perhaps with all the media attention this is getting, who knows, this could be the case that sets us free!!!