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8/6 CJRPC General Membership Meeting. Anyone Going?

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For as long as I can remember, there were club issues.  One hand greasing another... in how contracts and other things were handed out.  A former treasurer of the club even brought up from before, how he quit because he was tired of the bs.  There were cj key fobs given out to people with no names, and were used. 

 

How many members?  Newsletter should not cost that much, or give people option to do electronic as was stated.

 

As a member of a non for profit, you should be able to request copies of the statements. 

 

the fact is... CJ is a for profit vehicle for some people at the top.

 

Nevermind how at new member meetings if you were not referred, a new name would appear on the form. 

 

Power corrupts.  Absolute Power, corrupts Absolutely.

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The "Faction" had to get legal with a threat of eviction from the club. Expenses and ATM cards and the mileage? Fo what? Driving from bank to bank, or from ATM to ATM? Something smells fishy! Management fee? BS!

Mileage is mileage, and is reimbursable.

 

I have no problem with that and in my opinion no member should.

 

The BOD is volunteering their time (with the exception of some small stipends) and they shouldn't have to reach into their pocket for gas and mileage on their cars.

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How many members?  Newsletter should not cost that much, or give people option to do electronic as was stated.

There are approximately 3,800 active members.

 

A stamp cost what.....44 cents.

 

3,800 x .44 x 12 = 20,964.  That just postage.  Throw in the cost of printing.

 

It cost what it cost.

 

Whether or not the club should be offering and embracing alternative methods of delivery is another topic.

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Power corrupts.  Absolute Power, corrupts Absolutely.

To the victor go the spoils. : ) 

 

My view is that anyone who has an issue with how the club is run should attend every meeting and let their voice be heard, and if that isn't enough, they should run for the board and initiate the changes for the things they think are wrong.

 

It's a thankless job.  Anyone who has done volunteer work knows this.  

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Mileage is mileage, and is reimbursable.

 

I have no problem with that and in my opinion no member should.

 

The BOD is volunteering their time (with the exception of some small stipends) and they shouldn't have to reach into their pocket for gas and mileage on their cars.

 

...except when a 2 mile trip is billed for 20. 

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There are approximately 3,800 active members.

 

A stamp cost what.....44 cents.

 

3,800 x .44 x 12 = 20,964. That just postage. Throw in the cost of printing.

 

It cost what it cost.

 

Whether or not the club should be offering and embracing alternative methods of delivery is another topic.

The thing is they are using a bulk postage permit they are saying it runs 1500 to 2000 a month plus the cost of printing so if we go electronic then we save like 50000 a year (this was the approx number given tonight if I remember right) so either charge those that want a print copy and the rest of us can read the electronic version. Or only give a print version to those that "have no internet access".

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...except when a 2 mile trip is billed for 20. 

If that is the case than that would be a breech of fiduciary responsibility, wouldn't it?

 

So now one needs to ask himself...do you (figuratively) think that the BOD is routinely overcharging for mileage?

 

Like I said earlier in the thread...I'd love to see the "evidence" that's initiated this entire hoopla.  At this point all we have is an allegation from a few members against the board and in response a $10,500 audit and lawyers sitting at tables.

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The thing is they are using a bulk postage permit they are saying it runs 1500 to 2000 a month plus the cost of printing so if we go electronic then we save like 50000 a year (this was the approx number given tonight if I remember right) so either charge those that want a print copy and the rest of us can read the electronic version. Or only give a print version to those that "have no internet access".

Different discussion Mike.

 

Could the board use better (less expensive/more efficient) means of delivery of the newsletter?

 

Sure, they could.

 

Some people like paper, some like electronic.

 

Does it make sense to offer both?

 

Sure.

 

If the board doesn't, does that then subject them to accusations of misappropriation of funds?

I don't think so.

 

Guilty of being out of touch and as others have said "Old Fudds?"

 

Sure. : ) 

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If that is the case than that would be a breech of fiduciary responsibility, wouldn't it?

 

So now one needs to ask himself...do you (figuratively) think that the BOD is routinely overcharging for mileage?

 

Like I said earlier in the thread...I'd love to see the "evidence" that's initiated this entire hoopla.  At this point all we have is an allegation from a few members against the board and in response a $10,500 audit and lawyers sitting at tables.

 

the proof is in... let me see the financial statements... but you are not going to.  In fact, the vast majority of members just don't care and view it as a place to pay to play... not as a community.

 

with forums, now you have one person complaining, then another, and another, then you get a vocal crowd.

 

I have not seen it personally, but know of those who have. 

 

And yes, breach of fiduciary duty... did anyone ever doubt that? 

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the proof is in... let me see the financial statements...

Max, you and I both know that the financial statements aren't gong to show anything.

 

I know that I've looked at enough of them in my professional career, and I know you have as well.

 

You'll see the total expense, but you aren't going to see each and every receipt, invoice and check that makes up the line item expense on the financial.

 

That is what the "faction" wants to see.   They want to see the shoe box of receipts and mileage reports.  Are they entitled to see that much minutia?  I don't know.

 

It's easy to question a large item on a financial statement.  I think the number of 24,000 for mileage was mentioned, which at its face, seems like a lot, but when you consider that 2 or 3 board members drive out to Camp Perry and back, the number seems much more reasonable given that there are 13 BOD members, all doing various things with their personal vehicles.

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I can give you a few specifics, pm me.... but yes, 

 

This is a non for profit organization, where the board serves at the behalf of the members.  Not the other way around.  If the members want to see the mileage tracker, they should be able to see it.   If the IRS has the right to request it, so should the membership.

 

This is not a for profit organization where the minority shareholder demands to see day to day stuff.  You are not a poor sap who owns one share of nike.  You are a member of a club, to which you contribute towards operations.  big big difference. 

 

Otherwise, privatize the club, make it a for profit corporation and be done with it.  Owners can tell customers to pound sand. 

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I missed the vote thing last month and that should not have been allowed to proceed in the first place. Irresponsible on all the of the officers to have allowed it.

 

The cat calls in the back were absurd.

Every dues paying member is a shareholder and has a right to know and ask how the 1.8 million dollars is being controlled.

After all, once you have your 5 years and are vested in the club, wouldn't you want to know where all the money comes and goes in case it was to close shop?

 

The BOD's get indignant every time they are questioned

 

The prez got a little loud and boisterous at first, but perhaps the attorney told him to calm down and act civil, as he was fine after the initial outburst.

 

And just how much did that cost us to have an attorney sit there for well over an hour before any club business came up that he would be needed?

Kind of reminded me of a legal proceeding.

Someone asks a question, attorney leans over and whispers in the ear.................

 

The member asking about he mileage is within his rights. If he head a rumor he has a right to question it.The obama remark was out of place. He might have lost a few there.

 

The hypocrite comment form the yellow shirt guy was spot on.

 

In the newsletter it was mentioned that he newsletter costs 50K a year, I kind of expected that to be a discussed issue last night, but it was only just touched.

I for one would vote for an electronic only version, with the few that need a paper version continue as always, without being charged extra.

 

I do find it a bit heard to believe that the entire row sitting behind me "had no internet or email" capability.

 

 

Did anyone sign up for the Guidestar account to look at what was filed?

 

From 2012

$433K in other expenses, Schedule O

$2,4347 for mileage

$2,289 for fuel

$1,457 Travel

 

$141,940 repairs and maintenance

 

Schedule L part IV $102K, project manager

 

I could see where a club member would want to question some things

 

 

Now we are starting to get somewhere. Since it was brought up at the meeting by another member and since the IRS form 990 is available openly to the public I am sure my attorneys (yes there are now two of them) won't mind me mentioning that the club filing for 2011 and 2012 lists payment made to board member Byron for 102,600.00 in 2011 and 102,600.00 in 2012. Yes over 205k in just two years.

 

Now what I cannot talk about is a lot more. There are hundreds of thousands of reasons why they will not audit 2011 and 2012. In fact they did an audit in 2010 but I don't think that was for 2010, only 2009. 2010 financials are really interesting as we'll.

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This is a non for profit organization, where the board serves at the behalf of the members.  Not the other way around.  If the members want to see the mileage tracker, they should be able to see it.   If the IRS has the right to request it, so should the membership.

I think its unreasonable for the board to have to show every receipt and mileage reimbursement report to any member who wants to see it.  This is why there is a board with a treasurer and a CPA.  That should provide sufficient checks and balance, or at least in a perfect would it should.  And if not we get back to the issue about members volunteering to become part of the board.  Bitching about an issue is one thing, actually doing something about it is another.

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There are hundreds of thousands of reasons why they will not audit 2011 and 2012. In fact they did an audit in 2010 but I don't think that was for 2010, only 2009. 2010 financials are really interesting as we'll.

This is something that's stuck fairly deep in my craw.

 

You guys have been asking for info from 2011 and 2012, yet the President "commissions" an audit of 2013 and wouldn't answer why he wasn't doing one for 2011 or 2012, or both.  I got a bad vibe from his response, or lack thereof.

 

Part of me is naturally wishing this is just some big misunderstanding but at the same time if you've got something I hope it proves fruitful and will result in positive changes to the club.  I know what you guys have been dealing with isn't easy.

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Mileage is mileage, and is reimbursable.

 

I have no problem with that and in my opinion no member should.

 

The BOD is volunteering their time (with the exception of some small stipends) and they shouldn't have to reach into their pocket for gas and mileage on their cars.

 

Mileage is mileage, yes - but 40,000 miles?

 

As a volunteer for a non profit they can deduct the milage on their own 1040

 

The BoD here like in any club are there because they want to be, not because they expect to get compensated. And yes, I agree there are times when reimbursement would be appropriate. But not to attend meeting and matches etc.

 

 

For as long as I can remember, there were club issues.  One hand greasing another... in how contracts and other things were handed out.  A former treasurer of the club even brought up from before, how he quit because he was tired of the bs.  There were cj key fobs given out to people with no names, and were used. 

 

How many members?  Newsletter should not cost that much, or give people option to do electronic as was stated.

 

As a member of a non for profit, you should be able to request copies of the statements. 

 

the fact is... CJ is a for profit vehicle for some people at the top.

 

Nevermind how at new member meetings if you were not referred, a new name would appear on the form. 

 

Power corrupts.  Absolute Power, corrupts Absolutely.

 

It took me well over ten years to finally join, because of of all the infighting and financial issues I heard form one of our friends. From what I recall the indoor range was a huge fiasco.

 

New member name - thats a new one for me, never thought about it, and that alone, if true, could topple a regime.

 

 

There are approximately 3,800 active members.

 

A stamp cost what.....44 cents.

 

3,800 x .44 x 12 = 20,964.  That just postage.  Throw in the cost of printing.

 

It cost what it cost.

 

Whether or not the club should be offering and embracing alternative methods of delivery is another topic.

 

3396 as of last night

 

 

Max, you and I both know that the financial statements aren't gong to show anything.

 

I know that I've looked at enough of them in my professional career, and I know you have as well.

 

You'll see the total expense, but you aren't going to see each and every receipt, invoice and check that makes up the line item expense on the financial.

 

That is what the "faction" wants to see.   They want to see the shoe box of receipts and mileage reports.  Are they entitled to see that much minutia?  I don't know.

 

It's easy to question a large item on a financial statement.  I think the number of 24,000 for mileage was mentioned, which at its face, seems like a lot, but when you consider that 2 or 3 board members drive out to Camp Perry and back, the number seems much more reasonable given that there are 13 BOD members, all doing various things with their personal vehicles.

 

I did 5 years of air rifle coaching at our high school (NJROTC) We drove all over attending matches, never once did I receive or expect to receive compensation.

I frequently used my truck because of its capability and chalked up the expense as my "donation" to the group. Yeah, I got some meals out of it (mostly fast food) overnight accommodations (usually military barracks), but I never once thought about submitting mileage for reimbursement.

 

But, maybe that was because I knew the unit did not have the funds to spend like that.

Where here, the volunteers know the club can afford to pay out.

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Reasonable mileage reimbursement is one thing. That is only one of the issues. The operative word is reasonable. Say what you want but in 2012, and 2013, as documented in the financials, a fraction of the board logged in over 80,000 miles. That's not me throwing out an accusation, that's simple math from their own documents. And, there are more than half of the board members that have not taken a single penny for mileage reimbursement. Why is that.These are also officers and directors that are very active in the club and are there all the time working and volunteering their time. And don't play the hypocrite card on me either. I donated two vacation days and drove the backhoe and a bulldozer helping set the blocks for the new double wide. I also volunteered my time as a match director, once a month that amounted to an all day affair when I got done with the scores. Did I get mileage reimbursement, of course not. Would I have even taken it if it was offered, absolutely not. My time is just as valuable as anyone else. What did I get for my efforts at the club? They forced me out as a match director, then tried to get me thrown out of the club. What did I do? Nothing, I just asked to see some financial information, information that every one of us is entitled to see. 

 

Lastly, lets talk reasonable. The chairman and the treasurer lead the hit parade in mileage reimbursement. Would it interest you to know that our treasurer paid himself over 14k in two years for mileage reimbursement. The president stated that he didn't live on club property the whole time. He was living there in May of 2012 and ever since and still charges the same amount to travel. Reasonable? How about a board member charging exactly the same amount of money for mileage reimbursement for 4 consecutive months. Now that's driving accuracy.

 

Oh yeah I did fail to mention that the financials seem to indicate that the ATM cards carried by some of the members that are also charging the club for mileage are being used to purchase gas. Even the detailed financials don't tell me who those individuals are because our treasurer doesn't like to document the details of the expenses for some items, most notably the use of the ATM cards. The problem is as you examine in detail the financials you find all kinds of examples of suspicious activity. The mileage is just one glaring example. It comes down to this. It's not only about the money, it's about playing games with a whole lot of money.

 

The sad truth is that the club management needs a lawyer present because they need to be counseled on how to stay in control. The bottom line is the board and management of the club is costing the club money. Just allow the membership to see the information that they have a right to see, they don't need a lawyer, "yet". Anyone with intelligence has to ask themselves the question, why are they acting like this, what are they hiding?

 

And did anyone miss my last post? Over 200K to a board member in two years? Nice gig how do I sign up for that one?

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Different discussion Mike.

 

Could the board use better (less expensive/more efficient) means of delivery of the newsletter?

 

Sure, they could.

 

Some people like paper, some like electronic.

 

Does it make sense to offer both?

 

Sure.

 

If the board doesn't, does that then subject them to accusations of misappropriation of funds?

I don't think so.

 

Guilty of being out of touch and as others have said "Old Fudds?"

 

Sure. : ) 

True i misread your first statement sorry bout that 

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I think its unreasonable for the board to have to show every receipt and mileage reimbursement report to any member who wants to see it. This is why there is a board with a treasurer and a CPA. That should provide sufficient checks and balance, or at least in a perfect would it should. And if not we get back to the issue about members volunteering to become part of the board. Bitching about an issue is one thing, actually doing something about it is another.

Historically, when a member interested in taking on the board tries to run against them, the board tries to throw them out of the club.

 

Kind of like they tried to toss the disgruntled members of this latest go round.

 

Most of the money I've seen being pissed away by the board comes down to choosing bad ways to get things done that cost more than they need to.

 

An example is the newsletter. We are spending over a buck a pop on that for a few photocopied pages. That's a bit pricey.

 

Even so, I'd rather see it done every other month, which could pay for an annual audit and put another $15k back in the bank.

 

 

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Overpriced projects ?

 

How about the trailer? When we voted to approve the trailer it was for $70 or $75k, turnkey.

It is now close to $140k !

 

There is a compensated project manager to the tune of $100k and yet "someone" couldn't figure out that an open bottom trailer with plumbing might have a problem in the winter with freezing??????

 

How about the outrageous sum of $150k to pave the driveway?

 

 

I'm no actuary, but I would guess that out if 3400 members 80% use the range 1 time or less per year, 10% maybe 4-6 times with the remainder 10+ times.

 

So who would benefit most? The heavy hitters who also were the ones that proposed the project

 

And what a surprise, "if" we were to do a driveway surcharge, how much?

3000 members at $50 a pop and we have a driveway. But no, instead we just raise the dues 20%, which just happens to be $50.

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Im a new member and picked up my badge last month when they held a vote to kick out the gentleman requesting info (I abstained from voting at all, seemed really odd at the time). This bothers me as a new member, and it certainly dosen't look good to a new member when everyone is arguing about who said what on a friggin blog. Im not sure what to think but I am starting to agree...something is not right. Honestly, its out of hand.....honestly, the only thing pissing ,me off is that I can't draw from my holster until I show "Mr. president" 3 match results, but thats off topic. I'm glad someone is taking initiative to find out what the deal is, i may have to start going to more meetings to see for myself

 

since I have no idea who to PM to give my member number so I can gain access to the CJRPC forum, ill follow this thread. 

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Im a new member and picked up my badge last month when they held a vote to kick out the gentleman requesting info (I abstained from voting at all, seemed really odd at the time). This bothers me as a new member, and it certainly dosen't look good to a new member when everyone is arguing about who said what on a friggin blog. Im not sure what to think but I am starting to agree...something is not right. Honestly, its out of hand.....honestly, the only thing pissing ,me off is that I can't draw from my holster until I show "Mr. president" 3 match results, but thats off topic. I'm glad someone is taking initiative to find out what the deal is, i may have to start going to more meetings to see for myself

 

since I have no idea who to PM to give my member number so I can gain access to the CJRPC forum, ill follow this thread.

You and I are in the same boat. I joined in May. I've been following what's going on and there does seem to be some smoke, and you know what they say, where there's smoke there's fire.

 

I also agree with Vlad about paving the access road. 125k doesn't sound that bad.

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Provided that is an accurate estimate and its done in a timely manner, id be ok with 125 given our budget. was this voted on, or was everyone to busy going back and forth?

 

Did anyone else go almost every weekend when they first joined? haha

I don't know if this was voted on or not.

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