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Should I get a piston ar?

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would you trust a DI gun if the SHTF, you had to run it in dusty, sandy, high moisture, conditions with very little oil on hand? Or maybe you add too much oil and gum everything up, what then? I trust my life to pistons

 

Planning to storm beaches with no logistical support? Ok then, prepare to have every damn gun fail in those conditions.

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Planning to storm beaches with no logistical support? Ok then, prepare to have every damn gun fail in those conditions.

 

LOL, no storming of the beaches...

 

But I look at the weapons of the world that have been in wars in every imaginable condition imaginable, with very few if any failures, and the AK/pistons come out on top. The Israelis new weapon is piston operated.

 

I'm not saying DI does not work, they do, but the pistons have a stronger reputation as being reliable and ready to go, when needed and in crappy conditions.

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I hate to break it to you, it isn't the piston that makes some guns more reliable then others in certain conditions, it is the rest of the design. It is more about tolerances and sloppy fit vs tighter fit. It is a trade off if you care about accuracy.

 

I know my competition background makes people think that race space guns are somehow ok to fail and we don't care about that, but you couldn't be more wrong. When it costs me $500+ to attend a match, before travel, ammo, food, a single jam can ruin your match. Our space guns work (and really they are basically SPR's, they are not that crazy) or you don't really compete. In that world, where rifles+optic are north of $3000 and people can pretty much afford any rifle on the market, the rifle of choice is the DI AR with adjustable gas blocks. The only people shooting piston guns are people sponsored by companies that make them, like FN, Adams, etc.  I call that another clue.

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would you trust a DI gun if the SHTF, you had to run it in dusty, sandy, high moisture, conditions with very little oil on hand? Or maybe you add too much oil and gum everything up, what then? I trust my life to pistons

I regularly carry a DI AR for work. I will continue to carry one all day long and twice on Sundays. With proper PM and an end user knowledgable enough to use it for its intended purpose a DI gun will run in the same conditions a piston gun will.

 

Where/when have you "trusted your life to pistons"? When have you carried a piston AR into harms way?

 

I will tell you this, I see more DI guns than piston guns in classes I teach, training I attend, and being carried by professionals. Clue #1

 

Even with the overwhelming number of DI guns I still see less DI guns fail. Clue # 2

 

If there is a piston gun in class it usually shits the bed - and usually in a manner that is an instant show stopper. Clue # 3

 

Keep in mind that this is on manicured green ranges with cotton ball clouds floating across an impossible blue sky, over rivers of chocolate flowing past trees that give beer. They inspire no confidence.

 

Like it or not that heat, carbon, etc... has to go someplace. Sure the bolt is cool now but that little piston gets hot as a mo-fo.

 

Gumming it up with too much oil is a Sgt Major fairy tale - especially around here. And you can run an AR on a multitude of lubes, it doesn't have to be gun oil. I have seen them run/demonstrated that they run on:

 

WD-40

Butter/Margarine

Olive Oil

Pam

Saliva

Vagisil

Urine

Astroglide

KY Jelly

Motor oil

Eye drops

 

And believe it or not, a piston gun needs lube too.

 

So where are you gonna get your spare parts when SHTF and it's the Zombie Apocolypse End of the World Alien Invasion and your piston fails, or your BCG reaches the end of it's life expectancy? Or you get a leak in your regulator, or you need new piston rings? What if you have an Adam-Arms gun and you find LWRCI or H&K parts? Are they swappable? Is there a universal standard?

 

You like your piston gun? Great. Awesome. I am happy for you. Go forth and buy piston guns 'til your heart's content, but don't blow smoke up my ass about them.

 

Planning to storm beaches with no logistical support? Ok then, prepare to have every damn gun fail in those conditions.

Bingo.

 

LOL, no storming of the beaches...

But I look at the weapons of the world that have been in wars in every imaginable condition imaginable, with very few if any failures, and the AK/pistons come out on top.

Show me.

 

The DI AR has been around since the 60's and has killed more people than cancer - from jungles to deserts and everything in between. Every top NATO special operations unit that I can think of has chosen the DI M16 FOW as it's standard carbine/rifle even when their GP Troops carry a different weapon - including many Izzy teams.

 

 The Israelis new weapon is piston operated.

So what? It is not a piston AR (which is the topic of this thread), and also, so what? The Izzys are not the ones to be modeling a weapons program after. They are not all they are cracked up to be.

 

What's next, you going to advocate carrying condition 3 in a Fobus holster or using a Mako Carbine Conversion :rolleyes:?

 

LOL, no storming of the beaches...

 I'm not saying DI does not work, they do, but the pistons have a stronger reputation as being reliable and ready to go, when needed and in crappy conditions.

Again, show me where this reputation is?

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would you trust a DI gun if the SHTF, you had to run it in dusty, sandy, high moisture, conditions with very little oil on hand? Or maybe you add too much oil and gum everything up, what then? I trust my life to pistons

While we are talking hypotheticals, would you trust being able to find parts to replace your piston once you get to the failure point. If the world turned into the walking dead tomorrow I'm sure finding some 10w30 would be easier than finding a piston bolt carrier

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WHEW, some of you guys really get your panties in a bunch over this topic, LOL...

 

If you want proof of piston weapons (AK's) without fail, just turn on the news, they are being used all over the world and have been since the ~50's or 60's. For the most part, they run without fail and are still running today.

 

Look at the DI guns running today, people are still complaining about jams when they get a little dirty, running dry while in a firefight, etc... The US military buys the least expensive products available for the general troops while spec ops (most of the time) get the higher end (piston) stuff.

 

I have very little doubt you can outshoot me on the range with your pampered DI and if my goal in life was to pamper my weapon, buy 3k in gadgets, and shoot a mag, let everything cool off while I re-lube/clean before the next round, then I would get a DI.

 

My shooting goals are to shoot, have fun, compete with buddies, hunt and enjoy life - not worry about bringing enough oil to keep my gun running and pamper, and play with gadgets. I try to keep things simple and stress free

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While we are talking hypotheticals, would you trust being able to find parts to replace your piston once you get to the failure point. If the world turned into the walking dead tomorrow I'm sure finding some 10w30 would be easier than finding a piston bolt carrier

 

I trust I won't need a bolt carrier because I don't need to pamper the weapon after ever mag.

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I have very little doubt you can outshoot me on the range with your pampered DI and if my goal in life was to pamper my weapon, buy 3k in gadgets, and shoot a mag, let everything cool off while I re-lube/clean before the next round, then I would get a DI.

Oh, FFS. I laid this challenge before to people say lever guns where best, so what the hell.

 

Bring your whatever, I'll bring mine. I won't even clean it because that's work and I don't clean it now and I'm not going to start for this. We shoot a few hundred yards my way, a few your way, and let's see which one fails first. I need to load some ammo anyway.. Be aware being able to hit targets will be part of the test.

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WHEW, some of you guys really get your panties in a bunch over this topic, LOL...

 

If you want proof of piston weapons (AK's) without fail, just turn on the news, they are being used all over the world and have been since the ~50's or 60's. For the most part, they run without fail and are still running today.

 

Look at the DI guns running today, people are still complaining about jams when they get a little dirty, running dry while in a firefight, etc... The US military buys the least expensive products available for the general troops while spec ops (most of the time) get the higher end (piston) stuff.

 

I have very little doubt you can outshoot me on the range with your pampered DI and if my goal in life was to pamper my weapon, buy 3k in gadgets, and shoot a mag, let everything cool off while I re-lube/clean before the next round, then I would get a DI.

 

My shooting goals are to shoot, have fun, compete with buddies, hunt and enjoy life - not worry about bringing enough oil to keep my gun running and pamper, and play with gadgets. I try to keep things simple and stress free

 

I still fail to see how the reliability of AKs transfer over to putting a piston on an  AR.   And who says DI guns are or need to be pampered?  maybe the vietnam era ones do, but there are plenty of examples out there of modern versions being put through pretty rigorous dirty cycles without issue.  

 

As for simple and stress free, thats why i chose a platform with an abundance of available "open source" parts should the need arise.  because lets face it, mechanical parts break eventually.  

 

where are the torture tests of your piston ARs?  the reliability of an AK doesn't mean anything when talking about "should i get a piston AR"

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If you want proof of piston weapons (AK's) without fail, just turn on the news, they are being used all over the world and have been since the ~50's or 60's. For the most part, they run without fail and are still running today.

Same as ARs.... What's your point?

 

Look at the DI guns running today, people are still complaining about jams when they get a little dirty, running dry while in a firefight, etc... The US military buys the least expensive products available for the general troops while spec ops (most of the time) get the higher end (piston) stuff.

Prove it.

 

Jams[sic] when a little dirty? What's a little dirty? :rolleyes:

 

You use an M4 like it was a SAW you will have issues. That is a fail on that troops leadership, not a weapon fail. If you use a AK like a MMG you will have issues as well.

 

The guys I know on the sharp end are all shooting standard DI guns (M4s or SBRs) unless they have been saddled with something for a special purpose.

 

I have very little doubt you can outshoot me on the range with your pampered DI and if my goal in life was to pamper my weapon, buy 3k in gadgets, and shoot a mag, let everything cool off while I re-lube/clean before the next round, then I would get a DI.

Pat Rogers is still shooting filthy 14. It is a standard AR, with no bells or whistles. No "reliability" work, no special parts/gadgets, just a sling, optic and white light - a simple fighting carbine. It has around 44,000 (as of Feb 2014) on it without ever being cleaned. He has since "retired" his HK416 and LWRCI piston guns because they couldn't keep up.

 

My shooting goals are to shoot, have fun, compete with buddies, hunt and enjoy life

Wait, I thought you said you "trust your life to pistons".... :facepalm:

 

Again, you want to use piston guns, be my guest.

 

Just don't sit there and tell me how you "trust your life" to your range gun, and spout the bad info you used to justify your purchase to yourself at me. It gives me a case of the ass.....

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WHEW, some of you guys really get your panties in a bunch over this topic, LOL...

 

If you want proof of piston weapons (AK's) without fail, just turn on the news, they are being used all over the world and have been since the ~50's or 60's. For the most part, they run without fail and are still running today.

 

Look at the DI guns running today, people are still complaining about jams when they get a little dirty, running dry while in a firefight, etc... The US military buys the least expensive products available for the general troops while spec ops (most of the time) get the higher end (piston) stuff.

 

I have very little doubt you can outshoot me on the range with your pampered DI and if my goal in life was to pamper my weapon, buy 3k in gadgets, and shoot a mag, let everything cool off while I re-lube/clean before the next round, then I would get a DI.

 

My shooting goals are to shoot, have fun, compete with buddies, hunt and enjoy life - not worry about bringing enough oil to keep my gun running and pamper, and play with gadgets. I try to keep things simple and stress free

Just a wee bit of hyperbole about the reliability of a DI gun, don't you think? I'll run several hundred through a suppressed select fire SBR between lubrication intervals. Unsuppressed and with a longer barrel, my DI guns will typically go 400-500+ before requiring lubrication. If DI guns were as unreliable as you make them out to be, we'd have a lot more caskets in the ground.

 

And there's no such thing as over-lubricating an AR and gumming it up. I don't know where this started but it's pure bupkiss. To prove this point, I have taken a BCG apart and soaked every component in lube before reassembly and proceeded to dump a 60rd Surefire mag on full auto. Want to know what surprised me the most? The Surefire mag not choking.

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if di is better than why did ar manufacturers start making the piston design? Im not saying di is a bad gun. I like my di very much. Imo piston is the better design though. Cleaner and cooler. piston driven ar works very much like an ak. thats crazy to say it doesnt. do you know how both piston and gas work?

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if di is better than why did ar manufacturers start making the piston design? Im not saying di is a bad gun. I like my di very much. Imo piston is the better design though. Cleaner and cooler. piston driven ar works very much like an ak. thats crazy to say it doesnt. do you know how both piston and gas work?

To be different and create a new market. Piston systems have their place but for a general purpose AR, DI is the way to go.

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if di is better than why did ar manufacturers start making the piston design? 

 

It is called marketing. To stand out in a sea of AR manufacturers you need to convince the buying public that somehow your product is better. You will note that Adams Arms sell DI stuff under the Voodoo label, FN makes both DI and piston guns, etc. 

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if di is better than why did ar manufacturers start making the piston design? Im not saying di is a bad gun. I like my di very much. Imo piston is the better design though. Cleaner and cooler. piston driven ar works very much like an ak. thats crazy to say it doesnt. do you know how both piston and gas work?

They work in the same way in that they both have a piston. Other than that they are very different. It's crazy to call them similar as they just aren't. Tolerances are different, the buffer tube system is different. Bolts are different. The arak21 is closer but still very different. Installing a piston on an AR platform is not necessarily bad, but call it what it is

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I'd think that would be obvious, the design doesn't really permit it, without silly amount of modification.  The AR isn't really DI either, not REALLY,  it is a rod-less piston system if you think about it, the bolt itself is the piston, sort of, there just isn't a rod there, the gas operates directly on the piston/bolt. To make an AK that way the AK bolt would need to actually have a chamber around instead of just cam'ing surfaces. You can turn an AR into a piston operated format by pushing the carrier with a rod, instead of having the inside pressure pushing it, you can't do the reverse to an AK. 

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I love the logic that piston ar = reliability of an AK. Seriously? Have you ever examined the short stroke piston vs an AK op rod? The raft of short stroke piston guns are NOT the same. Then saying because the ak platform has been fielded everywhere it hasn't failed. Once again REALLY? Is there like a CNN ticker at the bottom of the screen keeping count? The AR has been fielded all over the place as well. Last I checked less folks with the AR wound up in body bags. Not that it proves they are awesome, but is sure does prove it isn't a crippled design. There are also a heck of a lot of well functioning ones that have put up high round counts between failures for it to be inherently flawed. 

 

Heck you don't even have to run them wet, it's just the simplest set of instructions to get to a state of working lubrication. 

 

My distaste for piston ARs is their proprietary nature with little practical advantage. Both the DI AR and AK platforms function as designed with a fairly broad source of compatible parts for both platforms. Something that is not remotely true of piston ARs. 

 

Also, the AK's popularity probably has a heck of a lot to do with it's ease of manufacture over anything else. 

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They work in the same way in that they both have a piston. Other than that they are very different. It's crazy to call them similar as they just aren't. Tolerances are different, the buffer tube system is different. Bolts are different. The arak21 is closer but still very different. Installing a piston on an AR platform is not necessarily bad, but call it what it is

they are similar. they work in the same fashion. so what if the parts might be a different shape. they both have the excess gas in the barrel go into a gas tube which pushes the piston rearward to reset the bolt. the excess gas does not blow back into the bolt to reset it like the di. the way in which the piston ar functions is closer to an ak than the way a di ar works. 

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they are similar. they work in the same fashion. so what if the parts might be a different shape. they both have the excess gas in the barrel go into a gas tube which pushes the piston rearward to reset the bolt. the excess gas does not blow back into the bolt to reset it like the di. the way in which the piston ar functions is closer to an ak than the way a di ar works. 

 

Not at all. Not even a little bit. The AR piston guns have a short movement piston that shoves the carrier on its merry way, the AK piston has a long stroke that moves along with the bolt for the entire trip. 

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I love the logic that piston ar = reliability of an AK. Seriously? Have you ever examined the short stroke piston vs an AK op rod? The raft of short stroke piston guns are NOT the same. Then saying because the ak platform has been fielded everywhere it hasn't failed. Once again REALLY? Is there like a CNN ticker at the bottom of the screen keeping count? The AR has been fielded all over the place as well. Last I checked less folks with the AR wound up in body bags. Not that it proves they are awesome, but is sure does prove it isn't a crippled design. There are also a heck of a lot of well functioning ones that have put up high round counts between failures for it to be inherently flawed. 

 

Heck you don't even have to run them wet, it's just the simplest set of instructions to get to a state of working lubrication. 

 

My distaste for piston ARs is their proprietary nature with little practical advantage. Both the DI AR and AK platforms function as designed with a fairly broad source of compatible parts for both platforms. Something that is not remotely true of piston ARs. 

 

Also, the AK's popularity probably has a heck of a lot to do with it's ease of manufacture over anything else. 

Im pretty sure noone called the di ar a "crippled design". I think everyone actually likes them. some of us just prefer the piston guns to the di. Its no news that a piston gun runs cooler and chamber stays cleaner. We all know that oil attracts dust. on top of that the di gun blows the excess gas and carbon into the chamber. the piston guns do not. in terms of long term reliability, a piston gun should be jam free longer than a di gun. Its only a matter of time before the di chamber gets filled with gunk causing it to jam. Im not saying this is going to happen at 500-1000 rounds but it could and has happened.

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