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kingsey

Should I get a piston ar?

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Not at all. Not even a little bit. The AR piston guns have a short movement piston that shoves the carrier on its merry way, the AK piston has a long stroke that moves along with the bolt for the entire trip. 

actually a lot a bit! Its not gas pushing the bolt back like the di. its a piston. the gas on the di returns all the way back to the chamber. the pistons do not. its the piston that resets the bolts.

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Oil attracts dust? Really? Magnets .. how do they work?

take two pieces of metal. put them outside. put oil on one and leave one dry. take a leaf blower and blow dirt over both of them. let me know which one has more stuck to it.

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Okie, let me help you because I think you radically fail to understand how a normal AR functions and how an AK function and what the short stroke systems like Adams do, despite the videos you posted which apparently you don't understand. 

 

Please take this in the spirit in which it is intended, lots of people are confused about how an AR works, so don't take this personally. 

 

The AR gas system works as follows:

 

Gas is bled from the barrel moved through a tube, and delivered into an expansion chamber formed by the rear half of the bolt and the bolt carrier. The gas is bled slowly so it takes quite a while to fill up that chamber. The gas is retained in that chamber by the front of the bolt being tightly fit to the bolt carrier and the rear gas rings. This creates a piston/cylinder arrangement not unlike a car engine, with the bolt being the piston and the carrier being the cylinder. When the pressure is high enough the bolt can't move forward, so the carrier starts moving backwards. When it moves backwards sufficiently, it starts dragging the bolt with it, it cams on the cam pin, and unlocks. 

 

Now where does that gas go? it leaves through holes on the sides of the gas carrier once the bolt moves away from them and out the ejection port and towards the REAR of the bolt. Gas does not escape forward, if it did the part behind the locking lugs would be filthy but oddly it isn't.  This is why when you clean an AR bolt the REAR of the bolt and the inside of the carrier are the dirty bits, not the front. The only gas coming towards the chamber is residual gas from the gas tube and guess what that is at the same gas pressure as the barrel itself. Given that they are at the same pressure, do you think the gas tube shoves more gas into the action or the barrel itself which has a much higher diameter and it is .. you know .. attached to the damn chamber?

 

Try running an AR, regardless of design, with an compensator with a high pressure chamber or even worse a silencer, those things push a LOT of gas back into the action through the barrel itself. 

 

What the Adams Arms design does is to shove the carrier with a short external piston and then the carrier is in free motion just like it was before. Yes this keeps gases away from the rear of the bolt, but when it comes to the chamber being dirty it makes no meaningful difference.  Note that the carrier moves INDEPENDENTLY of the piston beyond the initial short stroke of the piston. 

 

Now look at the AK design. The piston is hard attached to the carrier. The carrier moves with the piston all the way though its movement. Now, you can claim that a rod is a rod and a semi-auto is a semi-auto so from that point of view they are same, but thats like saying all semiauto handguns work the same way. 

 

Nothing about the Adams Arms design make the chamber any damn cleaner then the DI guns, because the gases from operation of the AR don't end up in the chamber. 

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And I should also add that yes there is small benefit to the Adams arms arrangement, there is less dirt in the action itself (not the chamber as covered earlier) so the BCG does need less cleaning and it does run cooler. I don't view the cooler part as being that important outside fully auto guns and even then I have doubts. It does reduce cleaning, I admit, on the other hand that is a very silly thing to worry about seeing how a properly built AR will run dirty for a very very long time. 

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Okie, let me help you because I think you radically fail to understand how a normal AR functions and how an AK function and what the short stroke systems like Adams do, despite the videos you posted which apparently you don't understand.

 

Please take this in the spirit in which it is intended, lots of people are confused about how an AR works, so don't take this personally.

 

The AR gas system works as follows:

 

Gas is bled from the barrel moved through a tube, and delivered into an expansion chamber formed by the rear half of the bolt and the bolt carrier. The gas is bled slowly so it takes quite a while to fill up that chamber. The gas is retained in that chamber by the front of the bolt being tightly fit to the bolt carrier and the rear gas rings. This creates a piston/cylinder arrangement not unlike a car engine, with the bolt being the piston and the carrier being the cylinder. When the pressure is high enough the bolt can't move forward, so the carrier starts moving backwards. When it moves backwards sufficiently, it starts dragging the bolt with it, it cams on the cam pin, and unlocks.

 

Now where does that gas go? it leaves through holes on the sides of the gas carrier once the bolt moves away from them and out the ejection port and towards the REAR of the bolt. Gas does not escape forward, if it did the part behind the locking lugs would be filthy but oddly it isn't. This is why when you clean an AR bolt the REAR of the bolt and the inside of the carrier are the dirty bits, not the front. The only gas coming towards the chamber is residual gas from the gas tube and guess what that is at the same gas pressure as the barrel itself. Given that they are at the same pressure, do you think the gas tube shoves more gas into the action or the barrel itself which has a much higher diameter and it is .. you know .. attached to the damn chamber?

 

Try running an AR, regardless of design, with an compensator with a high pressure chamber or even worse a silencer, those things push a LOT of gas back into the action through the barrel itself.

 

What the Adams Arms design does is to shove the carrier with a short external piston and then the carrier is in free motion just like it was before. Yes this keeps gases away from the rear of the bolt, but when it comes to the chamber being dirty it makes no meaningful difference. Note that the carrier moves INDEPENDENTLY of the piston beyond the initial short stroke of the piston.

 

Now look at the AK design. The piston is hard attached to the carrier. The carrier moves with the piston all the way though its movement. Now, you can claim that a rod is a rod and a semi-auto is a semi-auto so from that point of view they are same, but thats like saying all semiauto handguns work the same way.

 

Nothing about the Adams Arms design make the chamber any damn cleaner then the DI guns, because the gases from operation of the AR don't end up in the chamber.

 

Your one of those people that will beat a subject to death trying get to make it sound like you were right. Doesn't matter if gas is vented to front or back of the bolt. It's still venting on a critical moving part. your still trying to beat around what I said. You still haven't read what I said. I said the piston ar works more like an AK than the DI ar.

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Doesn't matter if gas is vented to front or back of the bolt. It's still venting on a critical moving part.

Doesn't gas vent on the piston? Is the piston not a critical moving part?

 

The heat and carbon have to go someplace. It doesn't just disappear. With a piston gun it goes to a relatively small and relatively delicate piston that is hard to source and is not built to any standard.

 

On a DI gun, it goes to the BCG - a fairly robust hunk of metal that is (should be) built to a universal standard and is easy to source replacements for.

 

If you think that you don't need to conduct PM on a piston AR and inspect/replace parts on a schedule you are nuts.

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Doesn't gas vent on the piston? Is the piston not a critical moving part?

The heat and carbon have to go someplace. It doesn't just disappear. With a piston gun it goes to a relatively small and relatively delicate piston that is hard to source and is not built to any standard.

On a DI gun, it goes to the BCG - a fairly robust hunk of metal that is (should be) built to a universal standard and is easy to source replacements for.

If you think that you don't need to conduct PM on a piston AR and inspect/replace parts on a schedule you are nuts.

Another person beating around the bush on what I said.please read before posting. Oh and when have you ever heard of a gun jamming from a dirty piston? Please show me.

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I can explain to you, but I can't make you understand.  I don't sound right, I am right, sorry if that gores your goat or something, I'm sorry if you bought a piston AR because you don't understand how a DI gun works and you bought the internet's rumors.

 

I'll put as plainly as I can, my "game" rifle is worth more then my daily driver. If there was any evidence that a piston system would be in any way better, I would spend money on it. I'm not physiologically attached to a particular rifle function system, I care what the end results are.

 

I'll also say that Adams Arms are great guys, support the shooting sports, and if they gave me one of their rifles I'd shoot the crap out of it, but it wouldn't be my primary rifle.

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I can explain to you, but I can't make you understand.  I don't sound right, I am right, sorry if that gores your goat or something, I'm sorry if you bought a piston AR because you don't understand how a DI gun works and you bought the internet's rumors.

 

I'll put as plainly as I can, my "game" rifle is worth more then my daily driver. If there was any evidence that a piston system would be in any way better, I would spend money on it. I'm not physiologically attached to a particular rifle function system, I care what the end results are.

 

I'll also say that Adams Arms are great guys, support the shooting sports, and if they gave me one of their rifles I'd shoot the crap out of it, but it wouldn't be my primary rifle.

Still beating around the bush. Please tell me what I'm wrong about?

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First , it's a malfunction. Jam goes on toast.

 

Pedantic? Yes, but it is a pet peeve. Like saying clip when you mean magazine.

 

Second, I have seen it. Up close, live, and in person.

 

I have inspected a LWRCI gun that shit the bed from The user neglecting to clean the piston end. The "self cleaning" piston tore itself apart.

 

I watched an AA gun choke time and time again when everything up front got loose.

 

I have seen HKs that did not have their accelerated PM intervals maintained shut down hard when their proprietary Uber-expensive bolt carriers shit the bed.

 

I have seen AKs, AUGs, SCARs, SKSs all fail from lack of cleaning, lack of maintenance, being shot well past the life expectancy of wear-items.

 

Just because you haven't experienced it or read about it on the inter-webs doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

Here is what you're wrong about:

 

For a normal civilian use a piston AR is no more reliable than the DI AR - and is actually arguably less reliable. You are paying more, giving up parts commonality, adding weight in the wrong places, for a perceived again that is mostly fiction and marketing hype.

 

If used in a role as described above – as an automatic rifle/MMG, for an SNR with a sub 11.5" barrel, or a dedicated suppressed platform then a piston AR makes sense.

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Okie, lets look at what you said

 

 

 

piston driven ar works very much like an ak

 

No they don't.

 

 

 

If DI is so good, why haven't the folks at the AK factory started making them

 

They did.

 

 

 

they are similar. they work in the same fashion

 

They don't.

 

 

 

hey both have the excess gas in the barrel go into a gas tube which pushes the piston rearward to reset the bolt

 

They don't but mostly because they don't reset the bolt, so maybe you didn't explain clearly what you meant

 

 

 

the way in which the piston ar functions is closer to an ak than the way a di ar works

 

Nope, the bolt is very different, the carrier is very different, one is short stroke one is not, they don't.

 

 

 

We all know that oil attracts dust

 

No it doesn't, the same dust gets there, oil just handles it differently.

 

 

 

on top of that the di gun blows the excess gas and carbon into the chamber

 

It doesn't

 

And now I'm bored. Look, you can believe whatever you want and spend your money any way you want, but personally I get miffed when people spread misinformation. It isn't your fault you believe these things, the internet if full of bad information, but I'll correct you before you convince someone else that things work in a way in which they don't.

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Ha, that's great. When the LWRC gun broke it launched its piston. It took us a good ~40 minutes during a lunch break to find it.

 

I in all of the classes I have ever taught or taken, in all of the training I have conducted or participated in, out of the hundreds and hundreds of ARs firing thousands and thousands of rounds that I have seen on the line and in action, I have never ever seen an LMT piston gun in a class.

 

But I have seen many LMT DI guns, they all performed flawlessly. In my line of work, that is called a clue.

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Okie, lets look at what you said

 

 

 

No they don't.

 

 

 

They did.

 

 

 

They don't.

 

 

 

They don't but mostly because they don't reset the bolt, so maybe you didn't explain clearly what you meant

 

 

 

Nope, the bolt is very different, the carrier is very different, one is short stroke one is not, they don't.

 

 

 

No it doesn't, the same dust gets there, oil just handles it differently.

 

 

 

It doesn't

 

And now I'm bored. Look, you can believe whatever you want and spend your money any way you want, but personally I get miffed when people spread misinformation. It isn't your fault you believe these things, the internet if full of bad information, but I'll correct you before you convince someone else that things work in a way in which they don't.

Yes they do work more like an AK than they do a DI gun. I am right. You are not. Again, you have failed at reading. I didn't say anything about AK making a DI gun so pay closer attention to who you quote. I never said DI was a crippled design which either you or someone else said earlier. I said I like my DI very much! I said I PREFER the piston design over di. All you seem to do is beat around the bush to what I really said to try to make yourself sound right when your not at all right.

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First , it's a malfunction. Jam goes on toast.

Pedantic? Yes, but it is a pet peeve. Like saying clip when you mean magazine.

Second, I have seen it. Up close, live, and in person.

I have inspected a LWRCI gun that shit the bed from The user neglecting to clean the piston end. The "self cleaning" piston tore itself apart.

I watched an AA gun choke time and time again when everything up front got loose.

I have seen HKs that did not have their accelerated PM intervals maintained shut down hard when their proprietary Uber-expensive bolt carriers shit the bed.

I have seen AKs, AUGs, SCARs, SKSs all fail from lack of cleaning, lack of maintenance, being shot well past the life expectancy of wear-items.

Just because you haven't experienced it or read about it on the inter-webs doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Here is what you're wrong about:

For a normal civilian use a piston AR is no more reliable than the DI AR - and is actually arguably less reliable. You are paying more, giving up parts commonality, adding weight in the wrong places, for a perceived again that is mostly fiction and marketing hype.

If used in a role as described above – as an automatic rifle/MMG, for an SNR with a sub 11.5" barrel, or a dedicated suppressed platform then a piston AR makes sense.

All heresay. I can say I saw a million things I didn't too. Where's the actual proof of all of these things you say?

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All heresay. I can say I saw a million things I didn't too. Where's the actual proof of all of these things you say?

The proof is in what we see and experience. For myself, of my rather large safe of ARs, I only have one piston gun and it's a dedicated short barreled suppressor host that happens to have a happy switch. This is because I don't see the value of a piston system other than in that limited application. Like HE, I have seen very few piston ARs carried by professionals in the classes I've either hosted or attended. While there are regular guys who shoot for fun in those classes, there are typically more who carry those rifles into harm's way. The fact that they're using DI guns and not piston guns should tell you something. The logistics of piston guns is an inherent issue that is a result of the operating system not being standardized. You guys who say you'd carry your piston guns if SHTF are discounting the importance of having spare parts readily available. Wanna know what I'm doing with that piston gun if SHTF? Putting a 10.5" DI upper on it because of the logistics and if I really need a LMG, well, I have an open bolt Mk46 for that. For the most part, you should consider any moving part of an operating system to be a consumable. With a DI gun, it's very easy to find a spare BCG should you need it. Can't say the same for a piston gun.

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Why because it wasn't said in court? Definitely rolling my eyes. Your just mad because you have realized your wrong

 

hear·say
ˈhi(ə)rˌsā/
noun
noun: hearsay
  1. information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.
    "according to hearsay, Bob had managed to break his arm"
    synonyms: rumor, gossip, tittle-tattle, idle talk; More
    stories, tales;
    informalthe grapevine, scuttlebutt, loose lips
    "that's all hearsay, and I don't care to listen to such tripe"
    • Law
      the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.
      "everything they had told him would have been ruled out as hearsay"

 

 

You are wrong because the word means that HE would be reporting things he has heard from others. He reported what he has personally experienced or witness. What you want to accuse him of is lying.

 

You sound upset. I'm not, now I'm just amused. Roll your eyes, but do it towards a dictionary.

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if di is better than why did ar manufacturers start making the piston design? Im not saying di is a bad gun. I like my di very much. Imo piston is the better design though. Cleaner and cooler. piston driven ar works very much like an ak. thats crazy to say it doesnt. do you know how both piston and gas work?

Actually, back in the 1960's, Colt designed, built, and tested a piston AR. They found that it was pretty much a solution waiting for a problem.

 

I'm not saying that piston rifles don't have SOME advantages over DI, I'm just saying that the 'problems' are issues that you will never have as an AR owner in NJ.

IMHO, that makes the 'advantage' a piston gun has over DI gun absolutely tits on a bull.

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Read #1 carefully. It is heresay to me what he is saying. To me it is rumor. He hasn't showed any proof.

 

Upset? Lol no. I still find it hilarious that you think the DI ar works more like the piston ar than an ak does.

 

You really are making yourself look foolish instead of just misinformed.

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I decided to resolve this debate like real men do ... so I took my DI AR ... I took my piston AR .. I put them in a room, told them that only one , only the best one can make it out alive and closed the door ... lets wait and see who wins ...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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You really are making yourself look foolish instead of just misinformed.

Haha ok whatever man. You obviously cant provide anymore useful information since you realized you were wrong. So now you just rely on trying to insult me. Lol

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