EPDM Roof Problem

[Scorpio64 5,154]

I'm hoping someone here might be knowledgeable about EPDM roofing. I just had my flat roof done and it's bubbling. The contractor says it's normal and wont affect the performance. The bubbles are worse when the roof is hot but are not as apparent when it cools down overnight. It bubbles up like that every time it gets hot. This is a brand new roof, two days old.

 

 

[SOG 7]

There is moisture under the EPDM membrane. It heats up and make water vapor (steam) when it cools down it condenses again. Is it a adhered membrane ? Did you use new insulation ?

 

 

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[Dextersmom 0]

What manufacturer? Carlisle? Call the manufacturer as I think the roofer is giving ya a load of shit! I run a few shopping centers and none of my EPDM roofs have bubbles and they are 10-15 years old!

 

 

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[Scorpio64 5,154]

What manufacturer? Carlisle? Call the manufacturer as I think the roofer is giving ya a load of shit! I run a few shopping centers and none of my EPDM roofs have bubbles and they are 10-15 years old!

 

 

Sent from my own head

 

It's Firestone material.  I called Firestone to ask if they can recommend someone to inspect the install.  Nobody has called back yet.

 

There is moisture under the EPDM membrane. It heats up and make water vapor (steam) when it cools down it condenses again. Is it a adhered membrane ? Did you use new insulation ?

 

 

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The roof was dry for at least a week prior to installation, they sheathed the decking with 1 1/2" insulation.  It is supposed to be a fully adhered membrane.

 

Now that I think about it, it was very humid the night before they installed the EPDM.  Wondering if there was dew on the insulation and they didn't let it dry thoroughly before they laid the EPDM.  The other thought is that did not allow the adhesive to flash off properly or they glopped it on and there were thick spots that would not flash evenly with the rest of the adhesive.  They also applied adhesive to the deck and the EPDM.

[maintenanceguy 510]

Looks like moisture to me too.  I doubt that it was dew on the insulation - that would have made it difficult to adhere the EPDM.  Maybe dew under the insulation?   A core test with a moisture meter is the only way I now of to verify.  Thermal scans are done on large commercial projects but they're expensive and not very accurate.  One advantage of EPDM is that it is easy to patch a core (or other damage) as good as new.

 

Did you get a manufacturer's warranty?  That would have required the manufacturer's rep to inspect the final job and sign off on the warranty.  Without that, I doubt the manufacturer will be much help.

 

What's the deck material and what type of insulation was used?

[SOG 7]

I agree with Scorpio64 that you should call the manufacture. If it is the adhesive flashing off then it will or should correct itself, but moisture won't. Let me know how you make out after you speak with the Firestone Rep.

 

 

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[oneshot 45]

Was /is the installer certified by firestone to install their product? You will have a hard time getting the manufacturer to come out inspect it. generally the contractor who is certified

calls them for inspection so they can get the manufactures warranty. It's not uncommon for some bubbles / wrinkles in EPDM. Everything expands and contracts at different rates.

 Even with a fully adhered system. Air does get trapped and will form bubbles. If you are not far from me i would come take a look at it. EPDM is generally a 15 year roof. Like what was mentioned above it is easy to patch . I wouldn't get to worked up just yet.

[oneshot 45]

P.S. The contractor is correct it will not affect the performance. It is possible that they missed small areas when they applied the glue. Is this a residential roof or commercial?

Is it open underneath the roof deck or is an enclosed area?

[Scorpio64 5,154]

P.S. The contractor is correct it will not affect the performance. It is possible that they missed small areas when they applied the glue. Is this a residential roof or commercial?

Is it open underneath the roof deck or is an enclosed area?

 

Residential, kitchen and dining room are under the roof.

 

Before I decided to go with EPDM I did a bunch of research.  I expected that there may be some wrinkles, maybe even a bubble or two.  But the extent of the bubbles (even if they wont affect performance) leads me to believe the installer was inexperienced and may have carried that inexperience over to the more important areas like flashing and seams.

 

If anyone reading this is a licensed contractor, I will pay to have this inspected.  Time is of the essence as payment is due by the end of next week. PM me.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

I called Firestone again and they do not seem to be eager to help since this is a residential install.  They gave me a possible maybe as far as contacting a contractor that might be willing to inspect the workmanship.  I also have another possible maybe in the works with someone who knows someone so things are still up in the air.

 

I'll ask again.  If anyone reading this is a licensed contractor with flat roof expertise , or knows someone who is, I will pay to have this inspected.

[pilotguy 0]

Send me a PM with your contact info. We have a roofing company and know about EPDM.

[pilotguy 0]

Fully adhered shouldn't bubble; it could be the glue or other moisture.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

I want to thank everyone who helped me so far.  As it is now I have a contractor with decades of experience working with EPDM coming on Thursday to have a look and give me an unofficial assessment.  I'm sure he will identify problems so now I have to figure out what the next step will be.  Since Firestone is no help at all I, may have to hire an architectural engineer associated with an organization called RCI to perform a roof audit. If it comes to that it will be my best option as they are the only third party with the proper accreditation from Firestone able to give me an official report because they are independent of Firestone.  I'm going to hold off on that because it's hella expensive and I want to give the roofer an opportunity to make it right.  I think the roofing contractor I hired is a good guy but he got in over his head using materials they are not competent working with.

[CMJeepster 2,778]

Make sure that all communications to the contractor are in writing and delivered via registered mail.  If you need to get an attorney involved, having a paper trail will help in the fight.

[SOG 7]

If you need someone from RCI I can put you in contact with someone. Let the long time experienced contractor look at it. Them tell the guy that did the work what has to be done to correct it. If he tells you that it's still under warrantee ask him by who and ask if it's a pro-rated warranty. I hope it all works out ok for you.

 

 

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[Nac 3]

That's the problem with a flat roof that is residential. 99% of the manufactory do not warranty it. If you do get a warranty you are going to pay a large premium for it. I have a modern house with a flat roof I just had it redone last year in PVC. My warranty is from the installer. Lucky I know him very well and he is one of my customers.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

If you need someone from RCI I can put you in contact with someone. Let the long time experienced contractor look at it. Them tell the guy that did the work what has to be done to correct it. If he tells you that it's still under warrantee ask him by who and ask if it's a pro-rated warranty. I hope it all works out ok for you.

 

 

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The roof is less than a week old .  I made the contractor aware of the problems last Friday and he only acknowledged they neglected to cut in the two valleys that were present on the old roof. He insists all of the bubbles and lifting seams are not an issue.  Once the other contractor looks at it I will make a list of things that need to be corrected before I pay the roofer.  If he refuses to fix it I will refuse to pay him and that's where things may get hairy and I'll need an engineer report from RIA.

[SOG 7]

I use to work for an Engineering Company. Just spoke to a friend I worked with who is RCI Certified. I have you covered on that end. I'm sure if you didn't pay the roofer and he wants to get paid he will correct the problems. If things do get crazy with finger pointing I can put you in direct contact with the right person.

Regards,

 

 

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[oneshot 45]

 I'm sure it will get worked out  since you have the roofer on the hook. If he wants to get paid at all it would make sense for him to fix/repair/replace whats done improperly.

   I didn't think firestone would be of much help but i figured it couldn't hurt to try.

[Zeke 5,504]

Any update on this?

[Scorpio64 5,154]

Well, there's been some progress.  They came back to fix a few things but they may have made matters worse in one instance.  Instead of cutting in valleys to drain the low spots they lifted the sheet of EPDM and shaved the insulation to create a slope.  Two issues with that.  One; the sheet is at a low point and is supposed to be at the bottom layer, they put it on top so now there is a ridge.  It's kind of like putting on shingles in the wrong order.  The second issue with that is there was less than 50% adhesion, far more bubbles than before.  This may be attributed to the fact they scraped off the facing on the insulation that the adhesive would bond to. 

 

So in short, they fixed many of the edges and seams pretty good but eff'd up the "fix" for the drainage problem.

[maintenanceguy 510]

Don't worry about which way the water runs with EPDM as long as it runs off the roof.

 

EPDM doesn't work like shingles where water sheds off of one shingle onto the next. EPDM is solvent welded at the seams and if done correctly works as a single membrane. On large commercial roofs, the tapered insulation or roof slope changes constantly to direct water to several roof drains. It would be impossible to layer EPDM to let water shed from one sheet to the other.

 

Shaving insulation to get a taper is wrong. Installing tapered insulation is right.