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A3764- Assembly Bill-- Requires successful completion of firearms education program to obtain initial firearms purchaser identification card and permi

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There are some that don't believe that CCW training should be a "requirement" either... because it's a "constitutional right." Refer to this Shaneen Allen thread...

It shouldn't be just as there shouldn't be quotes around your reference to a constitutional right...like it's some phenomenon or something.. it's in black and white in our Bill of Rights. That can be found under amendment number 2 if you want to look it up.

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I have never understood how lawmakers have the balls to impose any restrictions on law abiding gun owners, when they have not tackled illegal gun ownership.

 

I refuse to even consider any legislation restricting legal gun ownership, until each and every illegal gun is taken off the street.

 

The day these douches get 100% of the criminals to give up their guns,  is the day we can have a discussion about me giving up mine.

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Its not about their concerns for our safety but another expose on CC for the national stage.If hesigns it he's a Constititional stomping Fascist dog. A veto and he's a cold heartless child killer letting sociaty run wild.

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It shouldn't be just as there shouldn't be quotes around your reference to a constitutional right...like it's some phenomenon or something.. it's in black and white in our Bill of Rights. That can be found under amendment number 2 if you want to look it up.

 

I did not intend to imply anything with my quotes, other than to "quote" an earlier "quotation" from a previous post. I also believe that keeping and bearing arms is a constitutional right that should not be infringed.  But is it truly "infringement" to require training? Is it the training to which you object, or the cost of the training, or the fact that the govt. is behind the mandate for training?  Would you feel better if the 2A community were the motivation behind the training, rather than the govt. (i.e. "self-policing")? If so, than perhaps that's something toward which we can work. We've done it successfully in the "cave diving" community. We are still self-policing. And we do an excellent job of it.

 

Point being, I can't believe the founding fathers just allowed anyone to do whatever they wanted with firearms... there was training... (i.e. show them how they work, how to clean them, how to be safe with them, how to organize attacks and defenses against the enemies with them and not shoot each other up in the process).... They were, after all, "well regulated" militias. 

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Regarding cost-------

Hunters safety course is free, and $27 for a license so cost is not much, it's not like they are forcing you to only take a $200 class.

 

 

As I mentioned before I am kinda in agreeance but kinda not. Only due to things I have seen. I am totally agree with the constitution shall not be infringed thing, but again I'm kinda torn.

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I dont get it. All you people go to Florida, Utah and every other ccw class so you can carry concealed in other states. Thats training before you are allowed a constitutional right. Very few states have constitutional carry. I get that this isnt for ccw in NJ but the lines are similar before exercising a right.

Do realize that the world we live in is full of people who arent self responsible. We see people at ranges all the time who dont know the proper rules of gun safety.

 

We always live in a world full of people who aren't self responsible. That doesn't mean we continue make laws (specially with malice intent) *trying* to make people responsible.  First thing I did after buying a BB gun is to go get a decent safe.  If there were to be a crooked NJ law about storage, I would have kept it in a cardboard box just to satisfy the law. 

 

Forget all this. We (as a society) cannot get guns off criminals, cannot enforce existing laws so we turn around and make more laws for the only population we can control - law abiding citizens ?

 

There is nothing new in this bill but same old crooked, controlling attitude.

 

Last but not least, NJ is not a lost cause. It is forefront of 2A struggle and people who ignore it are just digging a grave for 2A. Anti-2A will continue to bring seemingly logical, convincing bills that pit brother against brother , pass them into laws,  make them history, a culture and then win in courts by arguing that these measures have been there for "long time".

 

The safest way to live in a dangerous world is to tie everyone to beds and feed them with tubes. Does that sound right ?

 

<end of rant>

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But is it truly "infringement" to require training?

yes definitely.

Is it the training to which you object, or the cost of the training, or the fact that the govt. is behind the mandate for training?

both

Would you feel better if the 2A community were the motivation behind the training, rather than the govt. (i.e. "self-policing")?

This is be happening now.

Point being, I can't believe the founding fathers just allowed anyone to do whatever they wanted with firearms... there was training... (i.e. show them how they work, how to clean them, how to be safe with them, how to organize attacks and defenses against the enemies with them and not shoot each other up in the process).... They were, after all, "well regulated" militias.

That's crap.

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The comparison to driving requirements (or anything else that needs training) is Bull Sh*t. Assuming we are ok with CCW training required in other states, that concept is generally built on public vs private space.  Barring NJ style unconstitutional laws, almost every training / licensing requirement is about safety when *you* are *operating* something in *public space*.

 

Show me what *you* are *operating* in *public space* with NJ FPID or pistol permits ? Then we can talk about licensing and training.

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Is there any evidence that untrained legal purchasers are a significant safety hazard in New Jersey? (Compared to, say, untrained swimming pool owners in New Jersey.)

 

Is there any evidence that untrained illegal gun owners are a hazard in Newark, Camden and Trenton?

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to mandate firearm safety courses in New Jersey public schools, particularly in urban school districts?

 

Or to mandate a safety course prior to buying a swimming pool.

 

The goal of this bill IMO would be to make Christie look bad if/when he vetoes it. The problem with that strategy is that a veto would make Christie look good with many groups that might be apprehensive about voting for him for president. Or vice president.

 

I expect much of this nonsense to be passed under the next Democrat governor. I only hope that I am a resident of another state when that happens.

 

 

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Point being, I can't believe the founding fathers just allowed anyone to do whatever they wanted with firearms... there was training... (i.e. show them how they work, how to clean them, how to be safe with them, how to organize attacks and defenses against the enemies with them and not shoot each other up in the process).... They were, after all, "well regulated" militias. 

 

 

That's crap.

 

Care to justify that accusation?  

 

If the Revolutionary war fighters were so disorganized as to let "anything go" when attempting to battle against the British, then I'm amazed we aren't enjoying "tea and scones" at 4pm every day, and having no guns at all. The fighting minute men were smart, organized, and took every advantage of their environment. They also knew how arrogant the British forces were, and used that very arrogance against them. That's not something that's automatically acquired. it takes some training and experience.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that mandatory training with firearms is a constitutional infringement. It might be if it's "govt." mandated and the intent of the govt. is to control or reduce the free exercise of that right. But I see nothing wrong with it being "industry/sport mandated."  The objective for me being simply that people know what they're doing with firearms, and that I'm not at risk whenever I'm on a public range because somebody didn't bother to get training as a result of exercising their constitutional rights. Or one of my loved ones.... 

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.......

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree that mandatory training with firearms is a constitutional infringement. .......

1. In NJ, that constitutional right is not afforded so all other bills / laws such as this one are moot.

2. I love it when people pick and choose which *part* of the constitutional right do we need to discuss. If the arguments are around history of 2A. Then lets go all the way. People get to carry the latest military gear if they choose, open / concealed shouldnt matter, every town would have a range overseen by local PD, every town also offers training. Only people who show up for mandatory training hours get to exercise their right.  I am up for it, as long as we go all the way.

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1. In NJ, that constitutional right is not afforded so all other bills / laws such as this one are moot.

2. I love it when people pick and choose which *part* of the constitutional right do we need to discuss. If the arguments are around history of 2A. Then lets go all the way. People get to carry the latest military gear if they choose, open / concealed shouldnt matter, every town would have a range overseen by local PD, every town also offers training. Only people who show up for mandatory training hours get to exercise their right.  I am up for it, as long as we go all the way.

 

In re: "1)", I think the argument there is that NJ, by it's laws, is infringing on the federal constitutional right (2A).

 

In re: "2)", if you switched the "range overseen by local PD" to "range overseen by a recognized 2A NGO,"  that might work. But good luck getting the govt. to let you sling a SMAW on your back... :D

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We need to amend this to include High School and Junior High School

 

     The bill limits the firearms education program to no more than four hours.  It may be offered by the National Rifle Association, a State or local law enforcement agency, junior college, college, university, firearms training school, or any other entity approved by the superintendent.

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Based on responses here, this bill may pass and it will be a shame.

 

Yes, its good idea.

Yes, it will help NRA and firearms business in NJ.

Yes, it will help people in general.

No, bad idea in  NJ based on its history to scr*w 2A community at every opportunity.

Yes, if NJ scraps FID and Pistol Permits all together and issues CCW as people will then be *operating* a firearm in public space.

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Based on responses here, this bill may pass and it will be a shame.

 

Yes, its good idea.

Yes, it will help NRA and firearms business in NJ.

Yes, it will help people in general.

No, bad idea in NJ based on its history to scr*w 2A community at every opportunity.

Yes, if NJ scraps FID and Pistol Permits all together and issues CCW as people will then be *operating* a firearm in public space.

Nj people are so used to getting screwed over that they have become passive and are OK with more laws under the cloak of safety. They even have opinions on how other states' laws should be..They are 2a's own worst enemy..and of course since none of this affects them currently as stated before by someone in this thread, that makes it even more OK...what a shame.

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It's just the same.  Compromising your 2A rights, one step at a time until ownership is a thing of the past.  New Jersey will drown under its own laws one day.  Sometime in the future, after we all here have passed, our grandchildren will wake up one day an realize they are no safer with the laws, than they were without. Sad state of affairs. 

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It's just the same.  Compromising your 2A rights, one step at a time until ownership is a thing of the past.  New Jersey will drown under its own laws one day.  Sometime in the future, after we all here have passed, our grandchildren will wake up one day an realize they are no safer with the laws, than they were without. Sad state of affairs. 

Yep. But it wont stop here. NJ is really a pilot ground. The whole point is, convince people here, make laws here, win court battles here and then slowly but surely spread it.  That "slowly" will be accelerated by NJ folks moving to other states as jobs move and take their screw*d up logical cr*p to other states.

 

For this very reason, I think NRA (and 2A community as a whole) is making big mistake in giving NJ up. At National level, we have to be strong enough to hold the fort AND put more efforts into NJ.  Otherwise, the other states enjoying 2A today WILL FALL, GUARANTEED.

 

From time to time, even best of the best fall into the "logical" traps anti-2A sets up.

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Yep. But it wont stop here. NJ is really a pilot ground. The whole point is, convince people here, make laws here, win court battles here and then slowly but surely spread it.  That "slowly" will be accelerated by NJ folks moving to other states as jobs move and take their screw*d up logical cr*p to other states.

 

For this very reason, I think NRA (and 2A community as a whole) is making big mistake in giving NJ up. At National level, we have to be strong enough to hold the fort AND put more efforts into NJ.  Otherwise, the other states enjoying 2A today WILL FALL, GUARANTEED.

 

From time to time, even best of the best fall into the "logical" traps anti-2A sets up.

Ok I'll step out on A limb here.

The next time you get that call in the evening, Asking for you to step up and donate more to the NRA.

ASK the person on the other end, How much of my donation is going to actually be spent towards our fight for 2A rights here in NJ?

 

I have actually had A couple callers apoligize to me for calling, When I posed this question.

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Ok I'll step out on A limb here.

The next time you get that call in the evening, Asking for you to step up and donate more to the NRA.

ASK the person on the other end, How much of my donation is going to actually be spent towards our fight for 2A rights here in NJ?

 

I have actually had A couple callers apoligize to me for calling, When I posed this question.

My experience has been same.

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I dont get it. All you people go to Florida, Utah and every other ccw class so you can carry concealed in other states. Thats training before you are allowed a constitutional right. Very few states have constitutional carry. I get that this isnt for ccw in NJ but the lines are similar before exercising a right.

Do realize that the world we live in is full of people who arent self responsible. We see people at ranges all the time who dont know the proper rules of gun safety.

I'm all for training but not MANDATORY for the purpose of getting an FID.

 

I'd be much more supportive of the various gun ranges requiring training as part of their membership.  

 

Or let the gun manufacturers package a deal with the purchase of a firearm.

 

Let the free market handle it.

 

I don't like anything mandated by the government.  We have enough and they eff it up anyway.

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As usual, many of the progressive-indoctrinated on the forum agree with the statists (at least in theory?).  

 

Have I missed something?  Has there been a rash of irresponsble people running to the ranges to shoot, and doing really dangerous things?  All of a sudden this is a pressing issue for those SH in Trenton!  At the private range I go to, there doesn't seem to be that many challenged and dangerous shooters, and if there were, they would be educated by the other members.

 

You want training, provide cost-effective opportunity.  You want training, provide for more training locations.   Let those idiots provide incentive, a tax deduction if you get training. 

 

There should be a public range in each town for safety practice. 

 

Could you imagine the further delays, etc. that would occur if training had to be done and documented.  What if a law is passed to end ranges, like the one against the dreaded gun shows, with no access to training what would happen?  And, it seems that once in place, a simple switch would be flipped to make it necessary for all FIDs to be renewed on a regular basis and of course, training.  And, all of this training would be a further means of registration by the state.  Maybe they will mandate you to take training for each kind of firearm you purchase.  Who would perform this training and exactly what would it entail?  

 

As someone stated above, lets have the opportunity for firearms training in high school.  It couldn't hurt to replace some of the progressive dribble classtime and brainwashing with it.  And, while we are at it, lets get rid of the zero-tolerance laws to allow this to happen. 

 

Another idea would allow people seeking training to take a nice tax credit to pay for their needed training.  I'd take advantage of it to further  my education.  Besides, the government that wastes everything would be better off without it.

 

And while we are at it, lets talk mandatory...  I think that we should have a few more required courses for the public safety.  All attorneys should have to have a mandatory Constitutional class and a mandatory ethics class before they can serve in either of those environments, and not classes at the progressive bastions of learning.  And, there should be a whole panel of classes judges and politicians should have to take before they can serve their offices, including those Constitutional class and the ethics class.  And, lets not stop there, all parents should have safety and educational classes as well. 

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I have never understood how lawmakers have the balls to impose any restrictions on law abiding gun owners, when they have not tackled illegal gun ownership.

 

I refuse to even consider any legislation restricting legal gun ownership, until each and every illegal gun is taken off the street.

 

The day these douches get 100% of the criminals to give up their guns,  is the day we can have a discussion about me giving up mine.

 

I agree with this!  But, these tools aren't just for sporting purposes or self defense.  These tools are also meant to keep the government in check. 

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I almost don't think this is not that bad of an idea. On'y because i've seen multiple times at ranges where people don't understand how to handle a gun, and pose a danger to not only themselves, but to others as well.

 

So, then let the ranges mandate that you need to take a safety class before attending.   The government doesn't need to get involved.   If they want your business, they should be able to establish a cost-effective and suitable class for you.

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We always live in a world full of people who aren't self responsible. That doesn't mean we continue make laws (specially with malice intent) *trying* to make people responsible.  First thing I did after buying a BB gun is to go get a decent safe.  If there were to be a crooked NJ law about storage, I would have kept it in a cardboard box just to satisfy the law. 

 

Forget all this. We (as a society) cannot get guns off criminals, cannot enforce existing laws so we turn around and make more laws for the only population we can control - law abiding citizens ?

 

There is nothing new in this bill but same old crooked, controlling attitude.

 

Last but not least, NJ is not a lost cause. It is forefront of 2A struggle and people who ignore it are just digging a grave for 2A. Anti-2A will continue to bring seemingly logical, convincing bills that pit brother against brother , pass them into laws,  make them history, a culture and then win in courts by arguing that these measures have been there for "long time".

 

The safest way to live in a dangerous world is to tie everyone to beds and feed them with tubes. Does that sound right ?

 

<end of rant>

 

This!  Excellent Post!  Too bad it contradicts your other one.  

 

Have you ever heard the phrase "you cannot fix stupid"?  You think a training course will make you more safe at the range, etc.?  The community should police itself.  If someone is unsafe at the range, the range officer, and/or others there should politely set them straight.   Do you honestly think this will matter.  "Peace Officers" go through lots of training and there are quite a few stories about stupid cops doing dangerous things with firearms.  This is about control, not safety!

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The elephant in the room is whether or not the NRA will oppose this bill or not.  I suspect the NRA will not oppose it because they stand to make huge profits and gain members if it is passed.  If it passes with the NRA's blessing, how will that affect your opinion of the NRA?

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Following the logic of some here, there should be mandatory training required before someone can purchase the majority of the tools at Home Depot.

 

It saddens me that supposed 2A supporters would be ok with any additional legal restrictions on our rights. This is why "rally the troops" never seems to work in NJ. People intent on being reasonable simply don't understand that the anti's are anything but reasonable. They know their end game and all these things are designed to win them their goal. Resist at every turn an counter with an aggressive offense.

 

They can afford to lose a thousand times and keep trying. Once we lose, the game is over.

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