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A3764- Assembly Bill-- Requires successful completion of firearms education program to obtain initial firearms purchaser identification card and permi

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How soon before Home Suppository and Blowes will need to schedule classes for permit holders of common contracting tools.  I really am afraid of the thought that my neighbor may have an unregistered nail gun or worse.  Stupid laws for stupid people.  "You can't fix stupid"

 

 

OMG, assault nail gun and rapid fire ?.....end of the world.

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In my view, a government with the size, scope and power of our current federal and state ones, aided and abetted by the bureaucracy and court system, is potentially a far greater threat to our lives and freedom than any 'idiots' who could cross my path. In addition, idiots are generally a one or two time occurrence, if at all. The government is with us every hour of every day.

 

Therefore, although it sounds rational, I would opt not to require any training or requirements dictated by any federal or state government. It only weakens our civil position, and guarantees nothing.

 

THIS is the best post in this whole thread.  This is what NJ gun owners should be focusing on in my soft-spoken opinion.

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"The two other members are to represent organizations, associations, or other entities advocating gun violence prevention, one each to be appointed by the President and the Speaker. "

So this panel could include a Sandy Hook parent from Newtown, Bryan Miller, Shannon Watts or Nicola Bocour???  

 

NFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"The firearms education program, which shall not exceed four hours, may be offered by the National Rifle Association, a State or local law enforcement agency, junior college, college, university, firearms training school, or any other entity approved by the superintendent."

 

 

And yet when I took my NRA Basic Pistol course almost a decade ago, that class ran the better of two days over an entire weekend (about 6-7 hours each day).

 

I don't even think such a thorough "approved" course under four hours in duration exists.  I could be wrong.

 

 

"Can we say 'back door FID/PPH denial', boys and girls?  I knew ya could..."  -Mr. Rogers

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If they want to go for this, Gun Safety should be made part of the curriculum required to graduate High School.

EVERY student should be made to take it. Stick it in the phys ed dept or something like that.

 

Oddly enough, that's precisely what was offered at my private undergraduate university. A PE dept. course in "Riflery," taught by the US Marine GySgt on station for the Univ's NROTC program. It covered .22LR semi-auto pistols as well as .22 single shot bolt rifles. It wasn't "required," but definitely "offered."

 

I took it. :)

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I am not going to lie. I like mandatory training. We have it for other stuff. Why not this. My only problem is that its just another restriction in an otherwise marxist state. You need training to drive, a course for a hunters license so why not for this. This would benefit ranges and trainers in NJ so its supporting local business. Not their stupidest idea

 

Of course you like mandatory training, I bet you'll also like the LE exemption that comes with it. It's "shall not be infringed," not "shall not be infringed; except for training." You cant legislate away stupid, mandatory training will do nothing to make anyone safer. It will only put, yet another, onerous restriction on a constitutionally protected right.

 

With some of the Yahoo's you see on the line, sadly enough....at times..this is not such a bad idea..... for me....my .02.... I don't have a problem with it

 

Your posts are why I will never give mastadon a single penny. Anti-gunners selling guns... Unreal.

 

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Not taking sides with anyone here, but I also have seen bad gun handling techniques. This was when I was a firearms instructor for my PD. Cops are the worse.

 

However, I am taking sides against mandating training for a right granted under the constitution.

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Ha...ok...your prerogative..... im.sure you havent spent a penny anyways....

 

I will.not shirk what I believe or . Think at the altar of the almighty dollar.

 

I have seen some of the worst gun handling skills in my life come through those doors.

 

And if you think any type of training is a bad idea..mandated or not..your a fool

Yes, yes it is my prerogative, and I won't spend a penny at Mastadon because of your stance on this, and other 2A rights related issues, based upon your posts on this forum. We've already established that. I have also discouraged those who have asked about where to shop for guns and gun accessories from buying from Mastadon. I'm sure I have spent plenty of pennies, plenty of places, that aren't Mastadon.

 

I am a big proponent of training, gun safety, and people voluntarily seeking gun safety training. I have, in my own free time and free of charge, trained at least 10 people on gun safety as best as I can in the past 3 years. As well as encouraged additional training going forward.

 

Your stance is that somehow more government regulation is going to do away with irresponsible people, at the cost of restrictions on an inalienable right. Knowing NJ and its evil, gun grabbing legislature, I suggest that it is exceedingly ignorant, irresponsible, and to use your own terms, foolish, to think that mandatory training will not lead to infringement of the most important of all constitutionally protected rights, while simultaneously doing very little to curb stupid people from doing stupid things. No four hour course on this planet will make an irresponsible person suddenly capable of being responsible for their actions.

 

edit for spelling

Edited by Knuckle Sandwich

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I wonder if supporters of this bill, especially NJ gun dealers and FFLs, would continue support the bill if it were to mandate that all NJ licensed gun dealers, and FFLs in the state of NJ give a gun safety course, not to be longer than 4 hours in length, free of charge, before selling any gun to any first time buyer?

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Anyone who has spent any real time in this 'shop' knows exactly how we stand on the issues...I will also personally not change what I believe in the face of the bully pulpit tactics you are exhibiting..you free to do what you want how you want...

 

Your absolutism will fail ...and does much much more harm than good.

 

Instead of seizing an opportunity...... oh well it doesnt matter .... you r opinion is made up....

 

We will be just fine.... thanks for the economic Gestapo tactics though....!

 

Being overly zealous in anything ...at the expense of reason...is very very dangerous.

 

You suggest I am being unreasonable? Please tell me what other reasonable restrictions on MY right to keep and bear arms do YOU suggest be enforced on me at the point of a gun?

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Not taking sides with anyone here, but I also have seen bad gun handling techniques. This was when I was a firearms instructor for my PD. Cops are the worse.

 

However, I am taking sides against mandating training for a right granted under the constitution.

You must be joking, law enforcement officials have the best safety training, I mean check this guy out. Perfect gun safety being practiced in a room full of children, ironically teaching them about gun safety of all things. :o

 

http://m.youtube.com/

 

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I wonder if supporters of this bill, especially NJ gun dealers and FFLs, would continue support the bill if it were to mandate that all NJ licensed gun dealers, and FFLs in the state of NJ give a gun safety course, not to be longer than 4 hours in length, free of charge, before selling any gun to any first time buyer?

Maybe the FFL's that are in favor of mandatory training, should just implement their own store policy about selling firearms only to trained customers. I'm sure that would be good for business, and everyone that purchased a firearm from their shop would be safer. I would like to see any FFL put their money where their mouth is on this subject, if they believe in this policy so adamantly.

 

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Here are two of the biggest problems:

 

  The bill requires the superintendent to prescribe the basic curriculum for the firearms education program, in consultation with a firearms safety panel.  The panel is to consist of four members.  Two members are to represent organizations, associations, or clubs promoting hunting, shooting sports or competitions, one each to be appointed by the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the General Assembly.  The two other members are to represent organizations, associations, or other entities advocating gun violence prevention, one each to be appointed by the President and the Speaker.  The superintendent is designated as chair of the panel and is responsible for determining when and where the panel will meet.  

     The bill requires the basic curriculum of the firearms education program to include classes relating to responsible firearms ownership, safe storage, restricting access to firearms by unsupervised minors, and any other matters concerning the safety and well being of this State’s families and children.  

 

 

So, you could have two non-NJ residents (how about Shannon Watts and Chuck Schumer??) sitting on a panel demanding that for FPID you need to watch two hours of 'Everytown' videos.

 

Contact your nearest Assemblyperson and complain on this basis alone.

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Maybe the FFL's that are in favor of mandatory training, should just implement their own store policy about selling firearms only to trained customers. I'm sure that would be good for business, and everyone that purchased a firearm from their shop would be safer. I would like to see any FFL put their money where their mouth is on this subject, if they believe in this policy so adamantly.

Just like I thought...Crickets. .

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how any gun owner could support this is beyond me.  I swear to God some people have their collective heads up their a$$es.  People, you cannot be this stupid.....you CANNOT!

 

Rutgers,

 

I agree.  This proposed bill is total BS.  The constitution is very clear - "shall not be infringed".  WTF is the problem with people not understanding those four words?

If you want training, go get it but DONT try to shove it up our collective asses under the guise of "public safety".  We have far too many laws restricting us already.

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having a drivers license is a privilege NOT a RIGHT

watch them do that with voting and see the ACLU swoop in

sadly for guns, the aclu seems to turn the other eye

DAMN this is the third time today I see this. VOTING IS NOT A RIGHT IN THIS COUNTRY. NEVER WAS. 

 

Those of you who say it's a right please find it in the Constitution and post a link here.

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Everybody calm down. 

 

Training is a big part of many important things we do. You need training and a certificate to be a dietitian in many states, or a barber or hair stylist. You need to pass an exam to have an amateur radio license or to sell food. NJ requires training to get a hunting license, correct (I am a bit fuzzy on this as I got mine long ago after showing them a NY license)? I don't hear too many people complaining about that.

 

Still, those activities are not constitutional rights. Yet we know that ALL Constitutional rights are subject to regulation. Been around this block before with you guys.

 

Let's face it. If this were the only requirement standing between us and say a NH- or PA-style gun environment nobody would gripe. 

 

The trick here is to ask for something in return. Loosening travel laws for handguns and HP ammo would be a very nice compromise. That type of horse trading is all we're gonna get in this state folks. 

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You guys better go back to the OP and read the bill. Please notice the pronouns I have capitalized below.

 

First, it says:

 

1.    a.  An applicant for a firearms purchaser identification card or permit to purchase a handgun shall not be issued the card or permit unless the applicant presents evidence of successfully completing A firearms education program of A type approved by the Superintendent of State Police or has received substantially equivalent training through law enforcement or military service.

 

The NJSP is the only arbiter of what programs are acceptable, but there might be a number of them.Then it says:

 

Acceptable evidence of successfully completing A firearms education program shall include, but not be limited to, a certificate indicating satisfactory completion of A National Rifle Association firearms course...

 

Implying that NRA courses and certs would be OK. But they're not! It then says:

 

THE firearms education program, which shall not exceed four hours, may be offered by the National Rifle Association, a State or local law enforcement agency, junior college, college, university, firearms training school, or any other entity approved by the superintendent.

The superintendent shall prescribe the basic curriculum for THE firearms education program required under this section.

 

In other words THE program doesn't exist yet, and any NRA certs you have up to this point are not relevant. Only the NJSP Superintendent (and his committee) decides what an acceptable curriculum is. Then we add:

 

c.     THE form or certificate issued pursuant to this section shall be valid, and shall be used, for an application for an initial firearms purchaser identification card or initial permit to purchase a handgun.

 

Please notice there is NO MENTION of grandfathering in existing FIDs. You've already got yours and you're not worried? Fine. Now go back and read the previous paragraph again. EVERY TIME you apply for a permit to purchase a handgun, you've got to provide proof of training. Every P2P you ever get is, at first, an INITIAL permit; it is not a permit renewal!

 

Lastly, go read the bill summary and notice it does not comport with the actual text of the bill. Can we fool you again?

 

Please stop focusing on the advisability and benefits of safety training. Nobody wants unsafe gun owners.

 

The ISSUE is that New Jersey is crafting another half-assed, ambiguous, ill-defined law that they will misinterpret and administer through REGULATIONS ESTABLISHED BY THE NJSP (not the law itself) to STOP YOU from acquiring firearms at every possible opportunity.

 

Or does everybody really want to go back to government school?

 

I do not.

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...*ME* I am voting with *MY* feet as soon as I can.......all that being said as a firearms collector, shooter and enthusiast, for *ME* I see no problem with mandating training...

 

:facepalm:

 

No offense, but please do not move here. AZ and other states have no mandatory training to acquire, to carry openly, or to carry concealed (a few places are restricted and have yet to be changed).  I do not want others who are "progressive thinkers" to change that. We will close the borders and not just to Mexico. :laugh:

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I am not suggesting anything of the sort and we are being a tad melodramatic aren't we?  Point of a gun?  Oh my.....

 

What I am personally suggesting is that, for me in my own (probably to your distasteful and my myopic view) is that I have no issue with reasonable mandatory training to acquire a firearm.  Sorry I just do not.

 

Also so you and others are painfully aware, as most are I have ZERO financial stake in Mastodon Ammo and Camo, none zero zilch.  I help out there and I am rewarded with lunch from time to time...but I do usually get the first call about the cool stuff that comes in, much to the chagrin of Nick (intercooler) I am sure...  LOL.

 

Let's put it this way, if this 'training' was all that stood between you and CCW in NJ what would you advocate for?  hmm?

 

Stomping of feet, carrying on like spolied children will get you know where but looked down upon.  Like it or not in *THIS* state firearms ownership is taboo and not mainstream. 

 

Understand it, deal with it and get over it. 

 

Don't like it?  Move. 

 

Don't like it? Change your legislature.

 

*ME* I am voting with *MY* feet as soon as I can.......all that being said as a firearms collector, shooter and enthusiast, for *ME* I see no problem with mandating training.

 

Regardless *WHAT* the USCONN says, *WHAT* you and I may believe to be true, you are not going to turn the tide in this state by, as I said prior stomping your feet and whining..-" BUT THE USCONN SAYS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED...."

 

They are looking at you and laughing.........

 

Once again to the point, mandatory training, in my opinion is not such a bad thing, because again like it or not.......MUCH MUCH MUCH worse is coming down the NJ Legislative turnpike that most assuredly will make the ny safe act look good....and that is one thing you can take to the bank sadly enough.

 

You absoutely are suggesting that my rights be restricted. You have no problem with a mandatory training requirement for yourself, and as such have no problem placing that same restiction on me, at the point of a gun. All the while calling me unreasonable for not seeing the common sense in gun control.

 

At the point of a gun, yes, I chose those words carefully, and I'm hardly being melodramatic. This is something so few people are willing to understand when it comes to laws. You see, when you support a laws passage you are essentially saying that you are willing to unchain men with GUNS to enforce that law with violence. In the hopefully unlikely event that a horrible law like mandatory training is passed, should a person purchase a gun without first obtaining training, men with guns will be there willing to do violence to correct the problem, hence, AT THE POINT OF A GUN. No dramatics, just the hard reality of law.

 

Your apathy towards unreasonable gun control is abhorrent and antithetical to the second amendment, and in this case equivalent to supporting gun control. We are not talking about negotiating with legislators for concealed carry in NJ, we are talking about having, yet another, unreasonable restriction forced on us. Refusing to support giving more ground in the lost battle which is gun rights in the state of NJ isn't stamping feet and acting childish. It is facing the reality that this is one that Tubby the magic RINO could definitely get away with signing into law... He could get away with it because of people like you.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that CCW will ever happen here, I plan to evacuate as soon as I am able. But no matter where I am, I will oppose all anti-2A legislation that is brought forward, and that includes any mandatory training requirements to purchase or carry firearms. But then again my support of the 2A isn't being called into question here is it?

 

So, Mr. Mandatory Training Requirements, which other of my freedoms are you be willing to trade in for privileges?

 

 

Funny you should mention that, if I had a time for every time I helped someone of some sort doing just that, I would have a lot of dimes.....!

 

And frankly I am NOT supporting it, I just don't have a problem with it.  There is a stark difference in that........just for clarification..........

 

Then you have no problem with the state mandating you do it, free of charge, for 4 hours, per first time purchaser, right?

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Been there done that got the T-shirt (kinda)..........so?

 

You ever see someone that is just, well kinda off? Creepy? It just so happens we didn't have anything he was looking for in stock...and probably never will........

I would hope that would be the case. always go with your gut instinct on anyone questionable. If I were an FFL I would choose a lost sale over one to someone I thought was shady. That's your choice to make.

 

Lets be realistic though brother, any gun store that required training to purchase a firearm wouldn't be around long we both know this.

 

Honestly I think if your worried about people at the range your attending are acting unsafe, then its up to you to point that out to the powers that be at that range. As well as the idiot sweeping you or whatever unsafe act you witnessed.

 

I am apposed completely to mandatory training for firearm purchases, but I'm not opposed to ranges requiring training to utilize their facilities. Maybe thats a better option then forcing an unconstitutional law upon the people. Just my $.02

if you want to shoot yourself in the face at home because your an untrained idiot, I have zero problem with that. When your at a range putting other people at risk because your an untrained idiot that's a problem for all of us.

 

And Nick I like you and your work, I don't think your progressive or anti 2A. I just disagree with you on your view in this case.

 

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All of this arguing but nobody is asking the real question. Will the mandatory training be required for curb side transfers between gang members?

 

This isn't going to make anyone safer and you all know it. I could get behind reasonable gun regulation laws, the entire book needs to be rewritten but I sure don't trust the government to hold the pen.

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