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hey guys........a fellow shop owner and friend asked me this the other night......

 

 he lives in pa. he's got his pa carry permit. he knows that he can't carry here on that permit. but.....can he carry at his fixed place of business just as us residents can?

 

 thanks!!

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he's the owner. he's got a few mechanics working for him. he's a transmission shop. good guy. same as the rest of us. sees stuff going down the pooper, and wants to have the ability to defend himself. he's also looking for actual carry training in pa, if anyone on here is an nra instructor.

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hey guys........a fellow shop owner and friend asked me this the other night......

 

 he lives in pa. he's got his pa carry permit. he knows that he can't carry here on that permit. but.....can he carry at his fixed place of business just as us residents can?

 

 thanks!!

 

He's basically GTG.  Just make sure he doesn't pull a dumb-ass move and get caught....like having a loaded gun in NJ in his vehicle when he crosses the border into the People's Republic en-route to the place of business he owns.........  So yeah, he has to disarm himself to drive to work!

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He's basically GTG.  Just make sure he doesn't pull a dumb-ass move and get caught....like having a loaded gun in NJ in his vehicle when he crosses the border into the People's Republic en-route to the place of business he owns.........  So yeah, he has to disarm himself to drive to work!

he already knows that. i pretty much explained it to him crystal clear.

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I think he is allowed to possess a handgun at a business that he owns, from place of purchase to that business, and to another business while moving.

 

In other words, he has to leave the gun at the business. Forever.

 

Going from memory, somebody correct me if I missed the mark, please.

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Not sure but I thought firearms cannot be brought across state lines, handguns specific, other than thru FFL? Also was told that even though you own business must also be property owner or have permission from the landlord.  Again not 100% sure but its worth looking into.  

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Not sure but I thought firearms cannot be brought across state lines, handguns specific, other than thru FFL? Also was told that even though you own business must also be property owner or have permission from the landlord. Again not 100% sure but its worth looking into.

Handguns cannot be bought across state lines without going through an FFL in your home state. Once you own them they can be brought across state lines under FOPA and state law depending on the states and the route. I do it twice every time I go to shoot in PA.

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

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Not sure but I thought firearms cannot be brought across state lines, handguns specific, other than thru FFL?

 

Are you trying to imply that FOPA doesn't cover handguns?:

 

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/articles/2010/guide-to-the-interstate-transportation.aspx

 

"Federal law does not restrict individuals from transporting legally acquired firearms across state lines for lawful purposes except those explicitly prohibited by federal law to include convicted felons; persons under indictment for felonies; adjudicated “mental defectives” or those who have been involuntarily committed to mental institutions; illegal drug users; illegal aliens and most nonimmigrant aliens; dishonorably discharged veterans; those who have renounced their U.S. citizenship; fugitives from justice; persons convicted of misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence; and persons subject to domestic violence restraining orders. Therefore, no federal permit is required (or available) for the interstate transportation of firearms.  Title 18- Part 1- Chapter 44- s926A"

 

 

...Also was told that even though you own business must also be property owner or have permission from the landlord.  Again not 100% sure but its worth looking into.

 

No.  Here's the actual statute, no mention of a *requirement* to own property or have permission from property owner in connection with place of business:

 

"e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location."

 

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nosir. he's in marlton nj.

 

I lived in Marlton,NJ for 23 plus years before moving to PA about 3 years ago. Has someone threatened him in that area? Marlton,NJ has had some crime but overall it's a pretty safe area. 

 

Quick question, does he have to own the business in order to carry on the premises or own the property and business for legal carry?

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I lived in Marlton,NJ for 23 plus years before moving to PA about 3 years ago. Has someone threatened him in that area? Marlton,NJ has had some crime but overall it's a pretty safe area. 

 

Quick question, does he have to own the business in order to carry on the premises or own the property and business for legal carry?

 

Yes. Ownership of business has been the implied law, even though it does not state that. It states "place of business".

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Not sure but I thought firearms cannot be brought across state lines, handguns specific, other than thru FFL? Also was told that even though you own business must also be property owner or have permission from the landlord.  Again not 100% sure but its worth looking into.  

don't need permission from the landlord. you must be "in possession" of the property, be it by lease or ownership.

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I lived in Marlton,NJ for 23 plus years before moving to PA about 3 years ago. Has someone threatened him in that area? Marlton,NJ has had some crime but overall it's a pretty safe area. 

 

Quick question, does he have to own the business in order to carry on the premises or own the property and business for legal carry?

only needs to be business owner. i believe the statute states "fixed place of business". if he's leasing the property, as i do here at my shop, he's still good to go, as the lease puts him in possession of the property.

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only needs to be business owner. i believe the statute states "fixed place of business". if he's leasing the property, as i do here at my shop, he's still good to go, as the lease puts him in possession of the property.

 

CORRECT!  And a further example:

 

You move out of state and change your permanent residence to Free America, but come home to Mom and Dad's house quite often.  You're a bit nerdy so you have a computer-ish career.  Your laptop IS your "office".  You sign a formal contract (written on toilet paper) to LEASE their house (at say $100/year or a quart of good single malt) for YOUR BUSINESS (as an Independent Contractor).  Now you can carry in the house all day long, play with hollow points, even transport (unloaded of course) to and from EXEMPTED locations all day long (according to written law, as a "Business Owner").   It's all legal...   

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he's the owner. he's got a few mechanics working for him. he's a transmission shop. good guy. same as the rest of us. sees stuff going down the pooper, and wants to have the ability to defend himself. he's also looking for actual carry training in pa, if anyone on here is an nra instructor.

 

This guy, Joe Riedy, is pretty good.

I attended his handgun fundamentals class.

He's trained with some of the big names out there, if that means anything.

 

http://sightsandtrigger.com/Training.html

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&

CORRECT!  And a further example:

 

You move out of state and change your permanent residence to Free America, but come home to Mom and Dad's house quite often.  You're a bit nerdy so you have a computer-ish career.  Your laptop IS your "office".  You sign a formal contract (written on toilet paper) to LEASE their house (at say $100/year or a quart of good single malt) for YOUR BUSINESS (as an Independent Contractor).  Now you can carry in the house all day long, play with hollow points, even transport (unloaded of course) to and from EXEMPTED locations all day long (according to written law, as a "Business Owner").   It's all legal...   

You can file Schedule Cs all decade long for income earned through self employment and nobody will bother you most likely. But all businesses in NJ are registered with a fixed NJ street address, id est your parent's house, with registered names and filing annual reports and fees. You will probably never be caught with a handgun at or on the way to your parent's house unless you get into an accident, blab to police during a traffic stop, or somebody calls the cops on you. The latter being the worst. But if it actually comes down to it in court I don't think any judge is going to rule your house of cards is a legitimate business lease at your parent's house for a business that is not registered at that address.

 

This is one of the things that I see a lot of at this place that bothers me. People making worse than tenuous contortions of law that we all know probably won't stand up if shit is real (e.g. Brian Aitken claiming he was "moving") and then when anybody points out that it's baloney people finish off with a pinch of "You guys are way too paranoid" as if somehow that makes the illegal a little more legal. Those are three distinct issues, not one murky issue. Will you get caught, if you are discovered what will the cop do, and if there is suspicion when discovered or if somebody actually calls the cops on you (mother, GF's X, GF, etc.) and makes you a suspect will your excuse stand up in court (are you legal). The chances of getting caught does not make an activity any more or less legal. Perhaps a cop will buy your story or will let you go by custom. If you get in a pinch, nonsense and mental gymnastics won't help.

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^^^I merely point to the laws as they are written.  I poke holes in them, sometimes showing how stupid they are (just like you do).  You are somewhat incorrect on this one.  All businesses aren't registered with the state, especially independent contractors that get 1099's and don't file a separate report for the business because all income and expenses flow through your personal return.  I KNOW this because that used to be ME when I freelanced.  So there is NO registered business address with the state OR the Feds for the state to check!  In fact Mail Boxes, Etc. store was set-up for this very subject...a P.O. Box where your "official mail" gets directed, and then forwarded if your on a job out of state freelancing.  The state laws say that the business has to be at a "fixed location" so as to prevent Sabret Hot Dog Cart owners or Fuller Brush Salesmen from driving-around NJ towns and parking on the side of the road "packin' HEAT".  Your old bedroom/den in Mommy's house set-up as an office w/ high speed internet (with the invoice in YOUR name for tax purposes) is such a "fixed location" in today's world.  Having a real document (obviously NOT toilet paper) dated, signed by both parties and Notarized is a formal contract in the state of NJ.  So armed with all of these FACTS, I don't consider what I type to be a "house of cards".  I'm just pointing-out a LOOPHOLE in firearms law that was written in the 60's.  

 

Holstering-up at your "place of business" doesn't mean that you have to make the majority of your annual income while seated/standing within a single "fixed location", structure/dwelling.  If I was a land owner that lived out of state in Free America, or as a NJ resident, I could visit my property, and once I've arrived, retrieve my pistol so as to be "packin' HEAT" and perform a "perimeter patrol" to check for varmints (either 4 or 2 legged).  The LAW doesn't say it has to be my main or permanent residence.  It doesn't even say I need to have a residence on it to patrol it.  Further, as an EXAMPLE, if I owned several Bars/Restaurants within NJ, I could drive from one to another all night long collecting the profits with my unloaded gun secured in the trunk of said automobile, since I'm traveling from one EXEMPT location to another w/o detouring!  And all the while I'm in each establishments' office opening the drop boxes, I could pack HEAT since I own the business.  And before I drive out of the parking lot, I need to disarm and secure the gun in the trunk of my sedan.  I could do this by simply unloading it and tossing it thru the air till it bounces off my spare tire (in the trunk) next to the cash box, since when I close the trunk lid, the state of NJ considers my unloaded sidearm to be "SECURE".  

 

The Aitken case is one I'm VERY familiar with.  Even if he was "moving" for two months (with unloaded hand guns in the trunk of his vehicle), he had to have stopped at a non-exempt location several times a day.  He obviously should have rented some storage space to secure them.  And the Cops had probable cause because his own Mother called him in to the Cops as being despondent and having firearms with him.   Did he break the law, even if unknowingly?  Yes I think he did.  Was it all blown out of proportion?  YES!  So in my opinion, his case is a poor example to bring to this conversation. 

 

Most folks read the statutes and merely "assume" or "read-into" what ever they THINK is missing.  I do not.  I read it LITERALLY, and unless and until the laws are changed to forbid reasonable actions by reasonable law-abiding civilians, I will continue to point-out these "loopholes" that educated folks like me make use of and enjoy.  As a Patriot it is my DUTY to live within the constraints of the laws, NOT invent, add to or misinterpret them.  There is no law on the books that allows me to breathe air, so I do it w/o asking permission from the state.......  I may have a different opinion or mindset than some here, but in reading a LOT of what you've typed since I've been a member here, it has come to my recollection that you and I are cut from the same bolt of cloth when it comes to "erring on the side of caution" by voluntarily giving up rights as free Citizens.  Hell, isn't that one of the very reasons you now live in PA?  Hope you enjoyed a nice Thanksgiving!

 

Dave

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Smokin,

 

Let me turn this back on me a little. When I lived in Jersey, and had no rights, there were things I had to do that simply couldn't be done. So, I did what I had to do and bargained with tortured mental constructs to assure myself I had some sort of justification for what should be normal human behavior. Heck, you would need a cover story to take your new handgun to your parents' house to show it to them. But there was no real, legit cover story.

 

It got to the point where I didn't even fire a gun for the last 5 years or so I lived in NJ. The more I learned about the real laws, and not the "gun club/shop talk laws," the more I decided it wasn't worth it and F it, I'm out.

 

Now that I have rights I don't break any laws. I even have old, old friends from Jersey asking me to lend them guns to carry in PA or wanting to buy/sell me longarms with no FFL and I won't touch it even though I think there is not a damn thing wrong with it (other than the laws). If I still lived in Jersey I probably wouldn't have flinched, although I'll never know for certain because those things didn't come up.

 

When the state declares the Citizens criminals you end up with criminal Citizens. And when there is no hope, there is denial and bargaining with the truth.

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^^^^Well said and I completely understand.  I'm still trying to see the glass half full (or maybe a 1/4 full in some circumstances, lol).  It took me several years to learn and study all of the EXCEPTIONS and EXEMPTIONS carved out of TOTAL ILLEGAL gun ownership and transportation in the PRNJ.  For the average Newbie to be able to dissect them and apply them correctly is a challenging task indeed.  Being able to wrap one's head around the fact that you could take a shopping tote onto public transportation and then walk into a gun shop with an unloaded "secured" hand gun (to be repaired, sold or just appraised) wrapped in butcher paper and tied with bakery string does take some talent to dissect out of the NJ laws.

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