Jump to content
Malsua

Big price increase in Water Heaters in 2015

Recommended Posts

A lot! they are commercial only. Anything commercial is $$$$$. Better off twining two 50 gal heaters together for a residential application IMO. 75 gal is the largest gas fired residential water heater. 80 gal is the largest electric water heater for residential Anything larger than that is considered commercial. I will call tomorrow for a price for you on a 100 gal, sit down when you read my post.

So will these rules apply for commercial stuff too, or just residential?  Also would a good commercial unit have a longer life, especially when used in residential service.  I know our contractor was not happy when he finally read the contract I wrote when we put the addition on our house as I specified (at his cost) a high efficiency 100 gallon hot water heater.  I'll be sure to stay seated to read your price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are all tankless heaters electronic?  I was just thinking - we have a regular hot water heater - boiler/tank, and that was a lifesaver during the power outage post Hurricane Sandy.  I could cook and I had hot water for showers... Yes, my hot water heater has a pilot...  I'm thinking that a Tankless heaters are 100% electronic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are all tankless heaters electronic?  I was just thinking - we have a regular hot water heater - boiler/tank, and that was a lifesaver during the power outage post Hurricane Sandy.  I could cook and I had hot water for showers... Yes, my hot water heater has a pilot...  I'm thinking that a Tankless heaters are 100% electronic?

 

No, there are gas tankless as well.  They could require a service upgrade from the gas company but it's not a big deal really, they usually just have to change out the regulator.  They have electronic ignition so without power, you're not making water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah - electronic ignition - that's the kicker. My water heater's working fine so I think we'll keep it for now. I'll speak to my father-in-law - he does a lot of construction. I'll tell him to stock up on heaters now..

Once these rules go into effect there will only be heaters with electronic ignition. Pilot lights will become a thing of the past, they cant meet the efficiency standards with a standing pilot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So will these rules apply for commercial stuff too, or just residential? Also would a good commercial unit have a longer life, especially when used in residential service. I know our contractor was not happy when he finally read the contract I wrote when we put the addition on our house as I specified (at his cost) a high efficiency 100 gallon hot water heater. I'll be sure to stay seated to read your price.

I called Hanover Supply in Randolph. A 100 gal commercial powervent (natural gas high efficiency) water heater at 100,000 BTU is $5000 my cost for the tank and draft inducing blower. They have to be built to order. Let me know how many you want me to get you lol.... keep in mind this is what's required to run a commercial kitchen for food service. This is why two 50's or two 75's twinned together is the way to go for a home, if you really needed that much hot water. How big is your tub??? Hahhah.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Translation - this is why I like to waste energy heating my entire boiler all summer to provide me with a small bit of endless hot water and potentially polluting the environment with my oil tank as well as the air with all the NOx, CO etc that my ancient 50% efficient burner spews into the atmosphere.  "But it's reliable."

 

:facepalm:

tank's in the house. on concrete. the furnace is less than 15 years old. it burns actually very clean. in the summer, it only fires up when hot water is necessary. much like a hot water heater. 'cept it's a single system. my old wood stove burned a lot dirtier i think than this does. or my old kerosene heaters that i used to use in the garage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All new oil tanks are above ground so no potential for leaking into the ground.

 

As for co2 and nox, wood stoves put out way more gases than oil burners.

 

I have the same setup except this summer I'm going to add a propane heater inline so I don't have to burn oil during the summer. I don't have a gas hookup at my house so I have no choice but to run oil and propane.

i didn't know i could do that? the propane thing i mean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I called Hanover Supply in Randolph. A 100 gal commercial powervent (natural gas high efficiency) water heater at 100,000 BTU is $5000 my cost for the tank and draft inducing blower. They have to be built to order. Let me know how many you want me to get you lol.... keep in mind this is what's required to run a commercial kitchen for food service. This is why two 50's or two 75's twinned together is the way to go for a home, if you really needed that much hot water. How big is your tub??? Hahhah.

OUCH!  I just got scalded on that price :(  Sent you a PM on this.  I think what we have must no longer be considered high eff as it is not power vented.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boilers heat water, furnaces heat air. You have a boiler. Unless you have hydronic coils in an air handler, then you would still have a boiler that makes the heat for forced air.

 

Its kinda like calling a "magazine" a "clip" to me, when you say that your furnace makes your hot water lol...

sorry man. i didn't realize the difference in that. thanks!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OUCH! I just got scalded on that price :( Sent you a PM on this. I think what we have must no longer be considered high eff as it is not power vented.

Correct natural draft heaters are no longer high efficiency. Power vented units are now. They produce a stack temperature of 120* or less, meaning the tank is absorbing almost all the heat the burner is producing. Now a natural draft heater produces stack temperatures of 300* - 400* that your throwing up your chimney heating the neighborhood with. Also 24/7/365 that natural draft heater is pulling a draft, sucking the cold air from your basement floor through the center of your heater (where the hot water is being stored) cooling it down as its sucked up the chimney. power vented units induce their own draft only during a call for heat. One reason they are much more efficient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm due for a new water heater in my townhouse. I see gas 40 gal heaters are still plentiful. However, I measured mine and it's height is 56.5"... I don't see many that height. Is it easier to buy a shorter one and extend the vents and copper or get a taller one and cut back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm due for a new water heater in my townhouse. I see gas 40 gal heaters are still plentiful. However, I measured mine and it's height is 56.5"... I don't see many that height. Is it easier to buy a shorter one and extend the vents and copper or get a taller one and cut back?

Supply houses sell them either way. Usually have tall or short in stock. Your never going to find another heater exactly the same as your current heater. So it doesn't really matter. Your going to be soldering pipe and messing with the vent either way. I would be more concerned with the height of the gas valve. For me its easy to lengthen or shorten a the gas supply, I have assortments of black nipples and fittings on my truck. You will probably be making multiple trips to and from your local home improvement big box store for what you need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can understand mandating high efficiency levels for furnaces to heat your home but high efficient water heaters?? My natural gas bill in the summer is less than $20.00 which includes the natural gas to fire my water heater, my stove for cooking, & gas dryer. I never understood spending $1000 dollars for an on demand water heater vs spending $375 for my plain jane 40 gallon Bradford White.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can understand mandating high efficiency levels for furnaces to heat your home but high efficient water heaters?? My natural gas bill in the summer is less than $20.00 which includes the natural gas to fire my water heater, my stove for cooking, & gas dryer. I never understood spending $1000 dollars for an on demand water heater vs spending $375 for my plain jane 40 gallon Bradford White.

But its for the children! Don't you love children? LoL. Someone is making a lot of money. They tried it with HVAC equipment recently they lost for now. But its coming back soon they won't give up this fight (EPA).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think efficiency is great.   My boiler is 95%, my AC is 18 Seer, my Hot tub meets California's highest efficiency standard...but I'm against the EPA requiring it.  I'm the guy that would rather have a high upfront cost and lower running costs simply because I know what I can afford for utilities today...tomorrow, who knows, specially with a president who says "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket".   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think efficiency is great. My boiler is 95%, my AC is 18 Seer, my Hot tub meets California's highest efficiency standard...but I'm against the EPA requiring it. I'm the guy that would rather have a high upfront cost and lower running costs simply because I know what I can afford for utilities today...tomorrow, who knows, specially with a president who says "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket".

 

Gotta agree here. Just bought a house and it seems everything had been purchased in the past 10 years so my utilities aren't that rough at all. After I get settled and figure out a master plan I'm going to get myself set up with some high efficiency systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an old oil boiler that heats my hot water. I had electric run for an electric water heater. I'm not quite sure which way to go here. Boiler still runs, but it can't possibly be efficient.

 

It depends on the efficiency of your boiler and what type of fuel.   My co-worker calculated how much fuel oil he was using during the summer months to make hot water and found out that he was burning about 20 gallons a month for hot water.  He rigged a relay timer that runs his furnace before the morning showers for 1 hour and run again for 30 minutes in the afternoon and cut his oil usage to 5 gallons a month.   In the winter it doesn't matter because the boiler is heating the house.

 

I would imagine that if someone was on natural gas, the numbers would be a lot cheaper than heating oil.  

 

If you do get a high-efficiency electric water heater, it really should be a tier II designed for northern climates and these start at about 2k and go up from there.    Also, you have to take into consideration where the heater is.  If it's in a basement, it's going to scavenge heat from the furnace and if in the garage or an unconditioned space, it becomes less efficient when it's very cold out, specially if it's a tier I.  Tier I really shouldn't be sold in NJ for an unconditioned space but they are cheaper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have ways of making even an older boiler significantly more efficient. they make some pretty cool controls these days that stop short cycle and use outdoor reset. If your running a tankless coil built into your boiler an indirect fired water heater is a 30% fuel savings alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think efficiency is great. My boiler is 95%, my AC is 18 Seer, my Hot tub meets California's highest efficiency standard...but I'm against the EPA requiring it. I'm the guy that would rather have a high upfront cost and lower running costs simply because I know what I can afford for utilities today...tomorrow, who knows, specially with a president who says "Under my plan of a cap-and-trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket".

I agree with you as well. When I don't agree is when i go to a house with an 80 year old lady living alone with a cracked heat exchanger. A bunch of cat food cans in the recycling bin and all over the counter, with no cats to be seen in the house anywhere. And I have to tell them instead of $3,800 for a new furnace its going to cost $7,000 because the new laws force me to install 90% or higher equipment or better. That's where I see the problem. And it happens a lot. I wind up basically putting the thing in for almost free and a tin of cookies lol...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a Utica hot water oil boiler, which according to the serial number, was manufactured in September 1988. It is a 175,000 BTU model. I cannot seem to locate the efficiency of the model.

 

Currently hot water is run directly off the boiler. This leaves me with a hot shower for 10-15 minutes max. With 2 adults and a baby on the way, this setup will not work for my home. I had the electric upgraded to a 200 amp panel in anticipation of installing an electric water heater. It appears that most of my neighbors are running propane, as natural gas is not available on our street, however I believe there is a line going through the intersection off my street.

 

I am torn at what to do. I know if we went to NG it would be a no brainer, but there is no plan to install natural gas on my street at this time. Would liquid propane be more cost effective? Should I replace the oil boiler and get a combi model for heat and hot water? Electric water heater? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Edit: Water heater would be located in the basement near the boiler. The basement is finished and heated, however it is slightly colder than the main floor. The home is a raised ranch and approximately 1500 square feet including basement. Main floor is 962 sq ft according to Zillow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you as well. When I don't agree is when i go to a house with an 80 year old lady living alone with a cracked heat exchanger. A bunch of cat food cans in the recycling bin and all over the counter, with no cats to be seen in the house anywhere. And I have to tell them instead of $3,800 for a new furnace its going to cost $7,000 because the new laws force me to install 90% or higher equipment or better. That's where I see the problem. And it happens a lot. I wind up basically putting the thing in for almost free and a tin of cookies lol...

 

I'm just curious but is that 7k including a boiler re-pipe with a hydraulic separator and a high efficiency zone pump like a Grundfos Alpha?  Because my 90k btu Bimini and Bimini Buddy was about half that.  I installed it, so there's no labor in it and I did get it at contractor price because the guys down there knew me and my history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a Utica hot water oil boiler, which according to the serial number, was manufactured in September 1988. It is a 175,000 BTU model. I cannot seem to locate the efficiency of the model.

 

Currently hot water is run directly off the boiler. This leaves me with a hot shower for 10-15 minutes max. With 2 adults and a baby on the way, this setup will not work for my home. I had the electric upgraded to a 200 amp panel in anticipation of installing an electric water heater. It appears that most of my neighbors are running propane, as natural gas is not available on our street, however I believe there is a line going through the intersection off my street.

 

I am torn at what to do. I know if we went to NG it would be a no brainer, but there is no plan to install natural gas on my street at this time. Would liquid propane be more cost effective? Should I replace the oil boiler and get a combi model for heat and hot water? Electric water heater? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Edit: Water heater would be located in the basement near the boiler. The basement is finished and heated, however it is slightly colder than the main floor. The home is a raised ranch and approximately 1500 square feet.

 

If you have a 175k btu boiler built in 1988, it's not very efficient and going to a new boiler would improve the efficiency drastically.   Also, a 175k btu boiler should be able to give you practically unlimited domestic hot water.   That said, as far as high efficiency, oil boilers ain't it.   They can get upper 80s as far as efficiency but only a gas or propane boiler goes up to 94+ %.

 

Also, unless you go to tankless hot water, even an 80 gallon tank is going to run out if you're after 30+ minutes of continuous hot water.  

 

I would stick with your boiler for as long as you can because replacing it is going to cost quite a lot.   You could however just go tankless electric for domestic hot water since you have the service for it now.  That's probably your easiest path.

 

Installing propane involves an entire new set of headaches, including getting a new tank, digging trenches properly and getting them inspected.   I did it by hand and it was a pain in the ass, it's probably not a good option and propane, while efficient isn't as cheap as natural gas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay thanks Mark. I'll scratch off the propane till we can get natural gas in the neighborhood. We have limited funding so I guess this is going on the back burner for now. Wifey reminded me that it's probably pointless till I get the rotted windows replaced. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Yeah that includes the heater. That $1500 price tag is for a 75 gal powervent they aren't cheap. a 40 or 50 gal natural draft or electric I usually get about $900 installed. The bigger the tank or the higher the efficiency the more $$$$ it costs. I make about $300 per install or less, after overhead, materials including the tank, pay help to bring in the new and bring out the old. Some heaters are easy and some are a bitch. Every now and then you get one that takes more than half a day to change. sometimes you get lucky and they take an hour.

 

How much would it cost to replace an old electric water heater with a new tankless gas water heater. The electric is on one side of the house and the new one would go in the attic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...