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mikka1

Weird question on mag capacity and law...

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(...) Frankly, as this is a public forum, and can be viewed by anyone, why would anyone want to give the State of N.J. more ideas on how to screw us? I am all in favor of vigorous debate, but where the debate takes place, in some instances should be in non public sections of this website, where those given access can be pre-screened.

Actually, I disagree here (though I admit I might be totally wrong).

I think illogical examples like this one should be as widely known as possible. We are not engaging in conspiracy here and not sharing recipes of how to circumvent existing regulations (unless you consider advice about 50 beowulf marking as the attempt to do so, LOL), but rather point out how a law-abiding citizen may all of a sudden become (at least in theory) a felon just based on how the law is defined now. I personally don't like it when where is a law on the shelf that has a potential to twist something upside down and make a law-abiding person a criminal - this is wrong on so many levels.

We haven't written this law, but we have to live with it and try not to break it :-)

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The Politicians were, and are not that smart. They are stupid and arrogant fools.

Agreed.  vladtepes is correct using the letter of the law IMHO. Let's take these 2 examples.

 

1) I am at the range shooting my .40 with the mags loaded to full capacity, 15 rounds of .40 cal. Who is going to bother me???

 

2) I am at the range shooting my 9MM with my .40 mag loaded to capacity with 9mm ammo, If the wrong person notices I fired 18 rounds without a reload. I am screwed!!!

 

I think it all depends on the circumstances of each situation. I know it's stupid, but I ALWAYS count how many rounds I load into my mags. I had a couple of pmags, 15/30s factory blocked at 15 rounds

that could take 16 if you pushed hard enough. Scared the crap out me so I returned them for "GOOD" magazines

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I think it all depends on the circumstances of each situation. I know it's stupid, but I ALWAYS count how many rounds I load into my mags. I had a couple of pmags, 15/30s factory blocked at 15 rounds

that could take 16 if you pushed hard enough. Scared the crap out me so rather than bother with returns, I took a hammer to them!

Dude this is crazy talk! Next time that happens return them to where you bought them, mags aren't free. Ask for non felonious mags in return, that's definitely a legitimate request.

 

 

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Agreed.  vladtepes is correct using the letter of the law IMHO. Let's take these 2 examples.

 

1) I am at the range shooting my .40 with the mags loaded to full capacity, 15 rounds of .40 cal. Who is going to bother me???

 

2) I am at the range shooting my 9MM with my .40 mag loaded to capacity with 9mm ammo, If the wrong person notices I fired 18 rounds without a reload. I am screwed!!!

 

I think it all depends on the circumstances of each situation. I know it's stupid, but I ALWAYS count how many rounds I load into my mags. I had a couple of pmags, 15/30s factory blocked at 15 rounds

that could take 16 if you pushed hard enough. Scared the crap out me so rather than bother with returns, I took a hammer to them!

This is all hypothetical of course!  Because we all KNOW that KNOWING you have a Hi-Cap mag and DESTROYING IT is against the law, for when the Hi-Cap mag ban first went into effect, throwing your mags in the garbage dumpster, the river or otherwise disposing of same was against the law!  You had to SWALLOW them and crap them out of your ass (yes I joke, but NO the law did NOT allow for making them inoperable OR disposing of them).  So let's try real hard to AVOID "diming yourself out" on a public forum, shall we??????????

 

(NOT meant as a put-down, I assure you--I just wanted to relay the message that knowingly destroying Hi-Cap mags is treated the same as destroying evidence in NJ).  Next time I'd simply request a replacement for your "broken" 15 round mags........

 

Take care and enjoy the hobby!

 

Dave

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This is all hypothetical of course!  Because we all KNOW that KNOWING you have a Hi-Cap mag and DESTROYING IT is against the law, for when the Hi-Cap mag ban first went into effect, throwing your mags in the garbage dumpster, the river or otherwise disposing of same was against the law!  You had to SWALLOW them and crap them out of your ass (yes I joke, but NO the law did NOT allow for making them inoperable OR disposing of them).  So let's try real hard to AVOID "diming yourself out" on a public forum, shall we??????????

 

(NOT meant as a put-down, I assure you--I just wanted to relay the message that knowingly destroying Hi-Cap mags is treated the same as destroying evidence in NJ).  Next time I'd simply request a replacement for your "broken" 15 round mags........

 

Take care and enjoy the hobby!

 

Dave

 

Thanks Dave for the good advice. You must have been referring to this line.

 

I think it all depends on the circumstances of each situation. I know it's stupid, but I ALWAYS count how many rounds I load into my mags. I had a couple of pmags, 15/30s factory blocked at 15 rounds

that could take 16 if you pushed hard enough. Scared the crap out me so I returned them for "GOOD" magazines.

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Thanks Dave for the good advice. You must have been referring to this line.

 

I think it all depends on the circumstances of each situation. I know it's stupid, but I ALWAYS count how many rounds I load into my mags. I had a couple of pmags, 15/30s factory blocked at 15 rounds

that could take 16 if you pushed hard enough. Scared the crap out me so I returned them for "GOOD" magazines.

:gaming:  :haha: All better!

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Every NJ gun owner lives in schrodinger's box. They are both lawful and unlawful at the same time until observed.

 

My point is, to be a NJ gun owner, is to be someone who most likely has committed at one time or another a victimless felonious gun related crime. The laws are set up this way so that the state can make a case against nearly anyone who is in possession of a gun if they really really wanted to, and tried hard enough.

 

I'm not going to list out examples here, but its not difficult to think of many.

 

Our best defense is to fly low and slow. Follow the laws. If a court case comes up with some new interpretation, we all follow that. Otherwise, most importantly not fire off new examples where poorly crafted NJ gun laws can further snag existing lawful gun owners who do their best to follow our cryptic, unconstitutional, and confusing laws. This especially if it has never been prosecuted in such a way before. The state doesn't need any more ideas or excuses to use our crappy laws against us.

 

Next up are calls to the State Police with "mother may I" questions on owning these mags. We all know how that works out...

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If your argument was correct, then 40 round mags designed to hold 15 rounds of 40 cal would be illegal and seized by the State Police because you can squeeze more than 15 rounds of 9mm in them. The fact that this has not happened is because of long standing agency practice which belies your argument that because the statue is clear, it is ok for it to be interpreted to reach an absurd result. Of course, if you load it up, with more than 15 you have a problem. Statutes are not applied in isolation, they are applied to specific facts.

No attorney client relationship exists between the writter and any member of this forum. 

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If your argument was correct, then 40 round mags designed to hold 15 rounds of 40 cal would be illegal and seized by the State Police because you can squeeze more than 15 rounds of 9mm in them. The fact that this has not happened is because of long standing agency practice which belies your argument that because the statue is clear, it is ok for it to be interpreted to reach an absurd result. Of course, if you load it up, with more than 15 you have a problem. Statutes are not applied in isolation, they are applied to specific facts.

No attorney client relationship exists between the writter and any member of this forum. 

 

 

the law also bans "AK types" but yet they are readily available throughout the state... lack of enforcement doesn't prove anything....

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Its not the lack of enforcement, it is the fact that they are sold in the state, the state police permits it, and there has never been a prosecution of anyone for it. These factors are exactly what a court would consider to be persuasive. You see custom and practice is relevant regarding the issue of agency interpretation. Do you know of any FFL in the state that will not sell a 40 cal mag designed to hold 15 rounds? To say that you are correct because the law bans "AK types" is way to much of a generalization, when you, yourself know the limitations on that issue. Anyway, I enjoyed your argument. Best, SJGLAW

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Its not the lack of enforcement, it is the fact that they are sold in the state, the state police permits it, and there has never been a prosecution of anyone for it. These factors are exactly what a court would consider to be persuasive. You see custom and practice is relevant regarding the issue of agency interpretation. Do you know of any FFL in the state that will not sell a 40 cal mag designed to hold 15 rounds? To say that you are correct because the law bans "AK types" is way to much of a generalization, when you, yourself know the limitations on that issue. Anyway, I enjoyed your argument. Best, SJGLAW

 

 

my point is that there is no logic to the laws here... m1 carbine and AK are banned in the same language.. "type" but yet one is sold hand over fist.. and the other calls for the swat team to execute you...

 

my argument was never that you are at risk.. my argument was not that you would be "in trouble"... my argument was simply by the letter of the law.. no matter what anyone says.. you are in fact in violation.. if you are comfortable with it.. if the people in this thread are comfortable with it.. then by all means.. go for it.. but by the wording of the state.. there is NO difference between a 100 round AR drum.. and a 15 round 40 S&W mag for a glock.. that is fact..

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Just to share, I had a near issue! I have an old USGI mag for my 92FS with a metal follower. I lost count but suddenly realized it was able to squeak a 16th round inside. I quickly tested and confirmed it would not load into the pistol against a closed action.

 

I get the tendency to keep a tin foil hat on with this stuff, but a mag also be able to feed to be deemed illegal. Looks like I'm safe and sound.

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The Politicians were, and are not that smart. They are stupid and arrogant fools.

Agree on the politicians. But they aren't the ones who write these laws. It's the leaders of the Antigun groups. And they are not stupid fools. They are very smart, very conniving and know a lot about guns. They know how to take advantage of "the stupidity, if you will, of the American voter" to do an end run around the constitution under the guise of "sensible gun safety laws."

 

Look at the California unsafe handgun act. If they'd introduced legislation to ban all new handguns, including trivial modifications of existing ones, it would have never passed, even in CA. So they achieved the same result with a common sense law which initially defined safety quite reasonably as not firing when dropped and then, outside the legislative process, gradually redefining safety such that no gun that will ever be produced will meet the criteria. Brilliant.

 

Obama just tested the waters of doing the same with ammunition. Gradually change the definition of "armor piercing" by fiat until all centerfire rifle ammo is gone.

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Wooly, I believe your assessment is correct. The anti gun groups are the authors of this crap. To them, we are all evil, criminals. Their job is to construct a law that will match the crime we have already committed in their view.

 

As far as mag issues, there may be arguments for other positions, but vladtepes is right ultimately. That's how the law is written. No prosecutor, and likely no judge in this state would be bothered to consider some intent or spirit of a gun law. Remember, to the anti gun crowd, we are nothing but criminal scum in need of a law to be prosecuted with. While that may make them certifiably insane....it's who they are.

 

This was a pretty good thread.

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