Did RayCo misinform my friend on out of state long gun xfer?

[kwadz 11]

I’m very confused about an incident that happened last night.  A friend's mom is a FL resident while he has lived in NJ for the past 15 years.  Sometime over the past 3 years, she gave him one of her shotguns.  However, they did it all off paper, because he didn’t know the laws regarding interstate transfers.  He does have an FID card, so he is somewhat familiar with the laws here.  That being said, he wants to be in total compliance in case he needs to use it for self defense, so that he doesn’t then get charged with illegal possession. 

 

I told him the proper procedure is to go with his mom to an FFL and perform the transfer there, with COE forms and NICS check, since his mom is out of state and cannot transfer him a long gun without going to an FFL.  He called RayCo in Merchantville yesterday, since his mom is up visiting, and they told him that he doesn’t need to do it at an FFL and all they have to do is fill out a COE form.  I had two blank copies already printed out from when I went to the Armory this past weekend (just in case I found something good) so he stopped down last night to get them.  The section for “seller” states nothing about the seller needing to be a NJ resident.  The section for “buyer” clearly states that the buyer must be a resident of NJ, otherwise the transfer needs to take place at an FFL.

 

Am I misinformed about the law?  Can a NJ resident purchase a long gun from an out of state resident in a private transfer with just a COE form and without needing to use an FFL/NICS? 

 

Even more concerning is that if I am right about the fact that all interstate transfers have to go through FFL/NICS, RayCo gave him the wrong information and he could get into some serious trouble, legally, because of it.

[remixer 1,645]

A NJ resident can purchase a long gun from a gun show or private party out of state (Face to Face) as long as they fill in the COE.

 

NJ does not have Long gun registration. (yet)

[Malsua 1,422]

A NJ resident can purchase a long gun from a gun show or private party out of state (Face to Face) as long as they fill in the COE.

 

NJ does not have Long gun registration. (yet)

 

The above statement is not correct.  All transfers of firearms between residents of NJ and a resident of another state must take place at a dealer.   Handguns must be transferred at a NJ dealer and long guns can be transferred at a dealer in any state.

[kwadz 11]

The above statement is not correct.  All transfers of firearms between residents of NJ and a resident of another state must take place at a dealer.   Handguns must be transferred at a NJ dealer and long guns can be transferred at a dealer in any state.

 

This is what I always believed to be the law.  That is why I was so confused that RayCo, a NJ FFL, told him that FTF was ok for a transfer from an out of state seller to an NJ buyer.  I feel like calling them today to ask them where they are getting this information. 

[Malsua 1,422]

As to the OP, there is a statute of limitations on illegal transfers.  If for whatever reason, he was unable to transfer the firearm from the mother(she dies, is incapcitated in some fashion, whatever), once 5 years has passed, he can no longer be prosecuted for it.

[remixer 1,645]

The above statement is not correct.  All transfers of firearms between residents of NJ and a resident of another state must take place at a dealer.   Handguns must be transferred at a NJ dealer and long guns can be transferred at a dealer in any state.

 

This is what i was told BY the NJSP when i asked them this question a few months back

It applies to long guns only. If im wrong then its due to mis-information  which would not completely shock me

[remixer 1,645]

Im going to call the NJSP today for another reason but i will mention this once again and see if the answer changed

[Malsua 1,422]

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons

 

From the ATF

 

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

[remixer 1,645]

Corrected. I guess the NJSP did not think of Fed laws.   I'm still going to ask the NJSP again today when i speak to them

[kwadz 11]

Corrected. I guess the NJSP did not think of Fed laws.   I'm still going to ask the NJSP again today when i speak to them

 

Thanks, guys!  I appreciate all of the input.  After speaking with some other guys about it, I think we've nailed down the issue that an interstate long gun transfer must go through an FFL.  However, the unanswered question at this point is whether there is a federal exemption on that law for interstate long gun transfers between family members, specifically from a parent to a son/daughter.  Other than Nappen, I'm not really sure where to find out that answer for sure. 

 

It sucks that he even needs to worry about all of these technicalities.  But after hearing Aitken's story, one can never be legal enough to avoid an "illegal possession" charge.  God forbid, he protects his family in a home invasion some day.  The last thing they need is for him to get 7 years for it.

[remixer 1,645]

I called my ATF lady to verify ill ask her that question also

[remixer 1,645]

She confirmed Private to Private from residents of different states is prohibited, There is no exemption "that she see's" for purchasing from a relative. She said some states have exemptions for family but she does not see a Federal one in the GCA

[kwadz 11]

http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html

 

 

3. Long Gun Possession

a. Possess - A person of any age may possess a LG (rifle, shotgun).

b. Purchase- A person of any age may purchase a LG from a non- licensee (not a gun dealer) who resides in the same State as the purchaser.

c. Gift / Loan - A person of any age may receive a LG as a gift or a loan from a non-licensee who resides in the same State as the recipient.

d. Outside State of Residency - A person maynot receive a LG from a non-licensee who resides in another State, except by:

1) Will or intestate succession, § 922 (a)(5)(A) giver, § 922 (a)(3)(A), receiver, or

2) Temporary loan or rental for lawful sporting purposes, § 922 (a)(5)(B), or

3) The non-resident may send or deliver the long gun to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) in the receiver’s State for purchase from the FFL, §922 (a)(2)(A)(unless the recipient State bans that type firearm)

e. It is a felony violation to willfully violate the residency laws: § 922 (a)(5) transferor’s violation, § 922 (a)(3) receiver’s violation, up to 5 years in prison.

 

 

Damn...I think this is pretty clear that there is no exemption for gifting from a family member.  Said family member must have died and either willed it to you or you must be next-of-kin for inheritance purposes.  Otherwise, it must go through an FFL.

[kwadz 11]

She confirmed Private to Private from residents of different states is prohibited, There is no exemption "that she see's" for purchasing from a relative. She said some states have exemptions for family but she does not see a Federal one in the GCA

 

That is consistent with the link that I posted, as well.  Thanks, again, for asking for me!

[remixer 1,645]

I apologize or my initial statement which was in correct

[kwadz 11]

I apologize or my initial statement which was in correct

 

Don't worrry - you aren't the only one who thought that.  I had a bunch of friends who thought the same thing.  In fact, even RayCo thought that.  I don't think they are on this forum, but I think I'm going to need to call them later.  They advised my buddy to do something illegal and his mom was only up here until last night.  I've had several run ins with those guys, too.  They tried to convince me that everyone should have to get a NICS check, even in private transfers, when Toomey was proposing that law a few years back.  I argued with them about it, but they were stubborn.  They're definitely not a) knowledgeable or b) truly pro-2A. 

 

It's one thing to be mistaken about an obscure law, but it's another thing to not be willing to investigate before giving someone advice.  He literally called them to arrange for a transfer and they turned him down because they didn't think he needed it.  The only positive is that they weren't being greedy for money, if they truly didn't think he didn't need to go through an FFL. 

 

Remixer, you were willing to follow up and determine whether your information was accurate.  RayCo didn't seem to have that concern.

[PK90 3,570]

Perhaps Rayco was under the assumption that mommy lived in NJ. I was surprised at remixer's first response, but he corrected it.

[kwadz 11]

Perhaps Rayco was under the assumption that mommy lived in NJ. I was surprised at remixer's first response, but he corrected it.

 

I'd like to believe this was the case.  I hope so, at least.  I'll have to ask him how explicit he was with them.  If he just said, "My mom wants to give me her shotgun." that would be one thing.  If he said, "My mom, who is a resident of FL, wants to give me her shotgun." that is another thing entirely.

[PK90 3,570]

Chinese Whispers

[magnawing 5]

Maybe mom gave him the shotgun when she still lived in NJ...just like my Dad gave me his 22 rifle when I still lived in MD...don't believe it? Just ask me, I'll tell the truth, I promise.

[kwadz 11]

Maybe mom gave him the shotgun when she still lived in NJ...just like my Dad gave me his 22 rifle when I still lived in MD...don't believe it? Just ask me, I'll tell the truth, I promise.

 

I wish this could have been the case, however the shotgun wasn't even manufactured until about 10 years ago.  I'm not sure the specifics but either she never lived in NJ (and he has lived here since he was a minor - parents are separated) or she moved out of NJ long before the shotgun was even made. 

[magnawing 5]

Ehhh...it was worth a shot.

[kwadz 11]

Trust me, the thought ran through my head, as well.  He and mom never lived in the same state for any period of time after it was manufactured and while he was an adult.  Grrr.

[kwadz 11]

I just got some new information that I didn't know before from him.  Apparently Mom spends all summer living with him, every year, so she can hang out with the kids while they're off from school.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Nappen's book state that if you maintain a temporary, but long term residence in a different state, you are a resident of that state from a 2A perspective during that time?  I think 2-3 months/year would definitely qualify as her being a resident of his house (and NJ), in which case he can have her fill out and date the COE form while she's living with him during the summer.  In that case, he wouldn't have to go through an FFL.

 

Thoughts? 

[Malsua 1,422]

If she was living in NJ, and considered it her summer residence, then she was a resident and a COE is all that is required.   The "seller" a.k.a. mom isn't required to have a purchaser ID.

 

Just fill it out as to the date the actual transfer took place.   Consider it a case of delayed paperwork.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Maybe your buddy told Rayco that his Mommy was up here every summer?  Maybe, just maybe, Rayco doesn't deserve to get "hung-out to dry"?

 

Summer is only a few months away.  When Mommy comes back up, is there any other long gun he wants?  Mommy can buy it at a yard sale and bring it up north, lol......

[kwadz 11]

No, he definitely didn't tell RayCo that she is up here every summer.  He even told them that his buddy told him that he needs to do an FFL transfer and they still told him, no.

 

Any parent who is also a resident of NJ can buy a long gun private purchase (FTF, w/ COE) from anyone else and then transfer it to his/her adult kid who also is a resident of NJ (FTF w/ COE).  So it really wouldn't be anything special...

[Lublin 3]

FFL's gone wild.....