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CJRPC scandal?

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Thanks raz. This makes sense and is probably nothing new for organizations of all sizes. It still doesn't make it right and I do hope that any outcome involves measures that will avoid messes like this in the future.

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Term limits for EVERY position with prohibition on running EVER again. Should be that way for politicians, clubs, etc. There are ALWAYS enough skilled people to go around.

We have those already -- they're called elections, and they work pretty well if the bulk of folks agree with your position.....

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All I can say is that I agree they may waste some money at times.  I think this has improved with the addition of the last few new board members.  I am somewhat friendly with more than one of them and see what is actually being accomplished at the club since I do spend quite a bit of time there.  This is the nicest club around and poossibly on the East Coast.  The dues for what you get are very reasonable.  I for one am seeing many more wives, families and girlfriends than ever before.  This is contributing to our sport now and in the future.  I am proud to bring guests to the club.  The more members there are (about 3600 now)  the more maintenance must be done.  I know what it costs to run an operation like this from past experience.  I really don't see any wrong doing but what I do see are some board members that really care.  In any case the suit will prove who is right and who is wrong.  I am sure at that time the disgruntled member who started this will hold his head in shame and hopefully be sued for the legal expenses of a frivolous lawsuit so that we the members can get a reimbursment for the treasury.

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I have a friend primed to join CJRPC, he's psyched about joining and I'm excited to have a new range buddy.

 

He was doing some web searching to get more info about the club and came across this legal complaint filed by a member. Link: http://www.cjrpcblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Second-Amended-Complaint.pdf

 

I read through most of it, and it reads as if the plaintiff started to dig around regarding the finances of the club and allegedly uncovered unscrupulous uses of club funds by some of the board members. It then reads like a drama, where he was kicked out of the club for blowing the whistle, and a string of back and forth defamation claims.

 

Does anyone have any insight into whats going on? Part of me wants to believe it is just drama caused by politics and other BS, and part of me wants to really know what is up with the money trail...is there really a problem?

 

Bryan, Copy of suit.

 

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I don't know if all the accusations are false or not (that will come out in time).  That said, the suit lost me when he started talking about loss of business because he couldn't bring prospective clients to the range and emotional stress. 

 

But I agree that the BOD seems to have mis-handled the initial questions. 

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Believe me, nobody is going to be found guilty or go to jail. There were no improper payments. This is really a fantasy dreamed up by some disgruntled members. Prior to payments going out it was checked by an attorney and brought to the membership at a meeting. Any scene you can think of can be turned around to make it look improper unless all the facts are on the table. George and his buddies are in fantasy land as will be proven.

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Really? I wasn't aware of that?

 

Which rule, specifically?

I have no idea which rule, but I do remember during the new member meeting they specifically said you couldnt bring ppl to the club for profit. I.e. you are an instructor you cannot guest ppl in to teach a class.

 

 

That being said Im waiting until all the facts are out to see who is in the wrong here. Def some interesting points being brought up by George but after attending several gen meetings and bod meetings, then reading the suit I dont think I can come to a conclusion without all the facts in front of me.

 

One positive that came out of it is we can shoot pistol caliber carbines in the pits now (with no special purpose badge). Shot with a BOD member recently and he told me although he fought it he lost the battle and after losing it he felt it was silly to have fought it (thats a paraphrase).

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I have no idea which rule, but I do remember during the new member meeting they specifically said you couldnt bring ppl to the club for profit. I.e. you are an instructor you cannot guest ppl in to teach a class.

 

 

That being said Im waiting until all the facts are out to see who is in the wrong here. Def some interesting points being brought up by George but after attending several gen meetings and bod meetings, then reading the suit I dont think I can come to a conclusion without all the facts in front of me.

 

One positive that came out of it is we can shoot pistol caliber carbines in the pits now (with no special purpose badge). Shot with a BOD member recently and he told me although he fought it he lost the battle and after losing it he felt it was silly to have fought it (thats a paraphrase).

 

 

Blake did the BOD member say why he fought the inclusion of PCC seems like a no brainer to shoot PCC in the pits.

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Blake did the BOD member say why he fought the inclusion of PCC seems like a no brainer to shoot PCC in the pits.

Technically it shouldn't be an issue if it's under 1k fps and you have a d&f badge.

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Technically it shouldn't be an issue if it's under 1k fps and you have a d&f badge.

 

See thats the part of the bylaws that killed me the under 1000FPS part. 9mm and 40 out of a pistol are already going over 1000. the only reason they added the 1000 fps part is cause they wanted it to be only for the SASS guys. That whole part of the rule should be removed altogeather or raised to like 1400-1500 38 super which is just fine to shoot in the pits with 115gr bullets already have a muzzle velocity of 1450. It just seems like the rule was flawed when it was written in the first place.

 

Blake it amazes me that anyone could have thought of it as a safety concern if that is the case it scares me that this is the type of person that is making decisions for the club. It reminded me of what you said about buying the 50 reaper (i think that was it) and having to sell it because it is not allowed to eb shot in the club. Seems like the rule was written to stop people from shooting 50 BMG out of a barret like gun. if that is what they wanted then say that dont make the rule that penalizes a gun that should have no issue with being shot at our range. 

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I have no idea which rule, but I do remember during the new member meeting they specifically said you couldnt bring ppl to the club for profit. I.e. you are an instructor you cannot guest ppl in to teach a class.

 

 

I remember that at orientation also. I'm assumed as an FFL it would be covered by the same clause.

 

Guesting somebody in to try a gun is hardly financial gain.

 

If you are suing the club for Financial Losses then it would be without a doubt for financial gain. 

i think that pretty much sums that up.

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I have no idea which rule, but I do remember during the new member meeting they specifically said you couldnt bring ppl to the club for profit. I.e. you are an instructor you cannot guest ppl in to teach a class.

 

A member may not charge a quest to shoot at the club.  That much is clearly written in the rules, and was discussed during orientation.

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But I understand there is some carry qualification done @ the range. That is charged a fee. Also pinelands billboard on club property was now removed but was an issue also. I know Gerry morey, another FFL that uses the club for CCW coarses.

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I can't speak about those other cases, but there is a difference between planning an event with the club's permission and paying a fee to the club to use the range, and just bringing customers to the range randomly (assuming this is what was going on, I have no idea).

 

Even some of the larger shooting events pay back a certain fee to the club. For example when I ran the USPSA section match there I negotiated a "fee" with the club (something like xx% and no less the $yyyy, I don't remember the numbers) and I think the Glock match people do the same. It may very well be that some of the classes being taught there have a similar arrangement.

 

Again, I know nothing about the actual issue at hand, but there is a difference between planing an event that makes money for someone with the club's approval and effectively renting the range for it, and making money off the club property by bringing customers to it, if indeed that is what happened.

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Believe me, nobody is going to be found guilty or go to jail. There were no improper payments. This is really a fantasy dreamed up by some disgruntled members. Prior to payments going out it was checked by an attorney and brought to the membership at a meeting. Any scene you can think of can be turned around to make it look improper unless all the facts are on the table. George and his buddies are in fantasy land as will be proven.

 

The only caveat I have with that statement is that is that you should check out who is affiliated with the club's attourney. That is probably my #3 hit on what the board is doing that it could catch some serious legal flak for. It is one of those instances where having amember affiliated/associated entity might be saving us money, but I'd rather pay another party more even to just avoid the appearance of impropriety.

 

The board's claims of why the councel we have is the best choice  seems to be they know how to deal with property issues with the town and pinelands commission. That's fine if true, and we could pay them for that. However as far as knowing the legal ins and outs of running an entity structured as our club is, theres a whole mess of unaffiliated lawyer types who know that stuff, and I think we'd be best off using one of them for anything having to do with the issues involving the charter or finances. That and 3rd party accounting should be the norm. We are moving towards the latter more and more, it' helped tremendously with membership funds issues, I think they will find that going tht way will help tremendously with these questions of finacnial propriety just as much. Especially comparedto their current tactic of "shut up don't question us" which is really shorthand for we've been lazy and just writing checks without thinking too much about it.

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^^^^

Nails it.

 

The membership has every right to question the board. They serve the membership. May be a crappy job but they volunteered.

 

I truly feel that the way you deal with people is how people deal with you.

 

The board has pulled this sorta thing with other members. It just so happens that George has the financial backing to push back to them.

 

I don't support either one (board or George) but I have gone to the meetings and I see some balid points.

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^^^^

Nails it.

 

The membership has every right to question the board. They serve the membership. May be a crappy job but they volunteered.

 

I truly feel that the way you deal with people is how people deal with you.

 

The board has pulled this sorta thing with other members. It just so happens that George has the financial backing to push back to them.

 

I don't support either one (board or George) but I have gone to the meetings and I see some balid points.

Agreed we should all question the BOD when we believe there is any improper use of funds or for any other matter.  I was at numerous meetings last year when Walt invited George to air his issues in front of the members.  George declined to stand up.  I would think if Walt or the BOD really had anything to hide this would not have happened and they would have tried to sweep it under the rug.  I really don't know but that is my opinion.  In any case I am sure that sometime in the near future everything will come out and we will finally learn if the BOD was guilty or if George is blowing smoke.  Wait and see time.  While all the squabbling is going on I am going to continue to shoot and enjoy our range.

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As one of George's close personal friends I have listened to enough arm chair legal opinions and speculation without any facts, or intentional mis-information as presented in these forums. He has asked many of us close to him that have first hand knowledge of the facts and documented information (seen with our own eyes) not to participate in trying his case on the internet. Without trying to break that promise I still feel compelled to state the following facts since these facts are public knowledge and do not expose the more serious information he has.

 

I can guarantee that if the board is looking to retaliate further by alleging that George has broken any CJRPC rules they are in for a hell of a big surprise. Because he has not. In fact, the individuals responsible for the club, our leadership, are the very ones that have broken the rules. Somebody brought it up so let’s get to the heart of it. The Pinelands advertised on the club property for over two years. This was brought up by George only because he also wanted to advertise on the property assuming it was ok. Finally, after months of attempts he was told at a board meeting (CHECK THE BOARD MEETING MINUTES) that permission was given by the President of CJRPC to the Pinelands to erect the sign AND THAT WAS AN ERROR ON HIS PART. This came without board approval and no compensation to the club. A direct violation of the published bylaws and rules. The reason given for the sign being taken down was a “Disciplinary action”, the facts of which are a closely held secret however most of us know why, for the rest of you I am sure it will come out in discovery. The whole deal and resulting action is a rats nest of back door deals and inappropriate behavior by the club management. Nothing happened as a result of that. George has never performed a single FFL transaction at the club and has never violated the club “guest” membership policy. He has never advertised at the club, in fact his own steel trailer and truck has no company information or markings on it at all. He did however offer all CJRPC members a discount on his firearms web site, many of whom have taken him up on it. In fact, probably the same people that has formed the hanging party have benefited from his discount. As recently as three or four months ago he was responsible for recommending two individuals to the membership, they joined, and he continues to recommend CJRPC as a great place to shoot. He was a match director and donated two days to construction activities at the site, payment a mere $50 off of his membership. He’s a better man than I am.

 

To another individuals comment, George is a victim of a pattern of intimidation and scare tactics to keep the membership in the dark. A few years ago another member (many of you reading this know his name) attempted to ask the very same questions of the board. Fast forward to the end he was brought up on charges, nothing related to safety or rule breaking at the club, and was threatened with expulsion. He attended the hearing and struck a deal with the “board”. Essentially a threat, either drop your inquiry now or you will be removed from the club. He backed down for reasons only he can answer and I won’t speculate. There is a long history of this behavior. Again to one of the poster’s point, this time they have screwed with a bear that will bite back and unfortunately for the club bullies, he has the teeth to do it.

 

Board members are quick to point out that he didn’t show up for his hearing so he threw himself out of the club. A hearing on charges that were completely false and retaliatory. Charges that were brought on by a board member and heard by other board members all of which George had a standing complaint against for violating his rights as a club member and violating his rights to privacy. That complain, a members complaint, was swept under the carpet. A hearing which he was not notified of. His legal folks have started a formal process to have the Postal Service investigate the alleged attempt to deliver a certified letter to him. Those of us that know him and what he has been confronted with in the past year know for sure he was never notified of the meeting. He would have no reason not to show up. He has never backed down up against the board and would have mounted a full legal assault at that hearing had he been aware of it.

 

I know he is going to be pissed when he finds out about this post. Just last week we were hanging out talking and I asked him how he can sit back and read what people are saying not knowing the real truth. He said no, he wasn’t pissed. First of all he said he knows that some of the posters are just board members thinking that they will remain anonymous trying to mount support by spreading lies. The problem is that not even the anonymous nature of the internet will help once he gets to court. He also said it doesn’t bother him because he is sitting on a mountain of proof to support his case, a case which he is determined to try in court.

 

This is one of my favorite posts,

ARNut, on 08 Feb 2015 - 8:34 PM, said:

Believe me, nobody is going to be found guilty or go to jail. There were no improper payments. This is really a fantasy dreamed up by some disgruntled members. Prior to payments going out it was checked by an attorney and brought to the membership at a meeting. Any scene you can think of can be turned around to make it look improper unless all the facts are on the table. George and his buddies are in fantasy land as will be proven.

 

The only fantasy in this club is the one that the Board members live every time they rattle their mighty sword and declare to the membership at large, kiss my ring for thou art blessed with the gift of shooting at MY range.

 

The real heart of this post is that for every negative opinion I have read so far related to George and the club, I can honestly say I have seen documented evidence to support his position. He has a whole lineup of legal statements, witnesses and supporters that will be there with him in court. Don’t expect to hear from them in this forum. As for me I don’t give a crap about getting flamed, I am retired from law enforcement and use to being beat up verbally. I say in advance, sorry George for this post, I won’t do it again, well maybe not.

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Agreed we should all question the BOD when we believe there is any improper use of funds or for any other matter.  I was at numerous meetings last year when Walt invited George to air his issues in front of the members.  George declined to stand up.  I would think if Walt or the BOD really had anything to hide this would not have happened and they would have tried to sweep it under the rug.  I really don't know but that is my opinion.  In any case I am sure that sometime in the near future everything will come out and we will finally learn if the BOD was guilty or if George is blowing smoke.  Wait and see time.  While all the squabbling is going on I am going to continue to shoot and enjoy our range.

Wow, within five minutes of my last post I have to break my promise again.

 

I am so tired of hearing posts like this one. Look at the FACTS, George NEVER accused the board of doing anything wrong prior to the membership meetings. The only thing George did was informally, then formally requested the monthly financial documents. The very first board meeting which I along with many others attended with George, Byron was the one that stood up and screamed across the table that he wouldn’t tolerate being called a thief! Nobody in that room ever accused him or anyone else of that. All George wanted was the financials he was entitled to. The membership meeting where the Chairman distributed all of Georges personal information then challenged him to provide proof that the board was doing something wrong was setup by them. All they wanted was him up in front of the membership as a setup, EXACTLY like what happened to the last person that requested documentation. At that meeting George had no documentation because the board REFUSED to give him any. People need to get this straight. Your never going to get George to engage in any debate or planned inquisition. He does his homework, compiles the facts and documents whatever he feels is his concerns, then addresses them. And now because of the board’s illegal actions to get him out of the club, he will NEVER produce any evidence to this forum, any other forum or any place other than in court. So speculate all you want but try to keep your opinions in line with the facts. And if you don’t know the facts then wait and when they come out you will be informed.

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