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Federal Interstate Handgun Sales Ban Ruled Unconstitutional

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I'm not entirely sure what this means to us, but if I can buy a gun in Ohio or Florida...well, who needs pistol permits?  I know that whole paperwork for both states has to be met...but does it now?  Inquiring minds want to know.

 

 

 

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https://www.firearmspolicy.org/news/affiliates/ccrkba/federal-interstate-handgun-sales-ban-ruled-unconstitutional/

 

 

In another excellent victory for civil rights by attorney Alan Gura, United States District Court Judge Reed O’Connor struck down the federal interstate handgun sales ban earlier today, finding it unconstitutional (both facially and as-applied) under the Second Amendment and the Fifth Amendment’s Due Process Clause.

As the Court explained, “[t]o prevail on a facial challenge, Plaintiffs must show that either no set of circumstances exists under which the law would be valid or that the statute lacks any plainly legitimate sweep.” That high bar was met by the Plaintiffs’ legal team. The decision explained that “Defendants [united States Attorney General Eric Holder and BATFE director B. Todd Jones] fail[ed] to provide reasonably current figures to show the federal interstate handgun sale ban is narrowly tailored.”

Even though the Court found that strict scrutiny was the proper standard of review for the type of burden on Constitutionally-protected conduct imposed by the challenged laws (18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(3), 18 U.S.C. § 922 (b)(3), and 27 C.F.R. § 478.99(a)), it also noted that the law failed even the relatively-deferential intermediate scrutiny test.

The United States, the Court held, has been enforcing “a regime that is not substantially related to the Government’s stated goal” [of public safety]. Even under intermediate scrutiny, “there must be an indication that the regulation will alleviate the asserted harm to a material degree.” But “Defendants [] failed to carry their burden to show how the federal interstate handgun transfer ban alleviates, in a material way, the problem of prohibited persons obtaining handguns simply by crossing state lines and depriving states of notice that they have under the amended version of the 1968 Gun Control Act.” Accordingly, the laws were declared unconstitutional and enjoined from enforcement.

The lawsuit, captioned Fredric Russell Mance, Jr. et al. v. Eric H. Holder, Jr. and B. Todd Jones, was backed by Citizens’ Commitee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, one of the Bellevue, WA-based civil rights groups led by Alan Gottlieb. CCRKBA was also a plaintiff in the case, which will likely be appealed by the government to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.

The Mance trial court docket can be viewed here.

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This will definitely be interesting to watch.

 

NJ sucks with the P2P and FID nonsense, but if I'm reading this correctly, people in free states are now allowed to freely buy handguns across state lines until the Feds ask for a stay on the order (and assuming it's granted).

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I posted this to another forum that has a lawyer as the moderator and if I get an answer before someone does here, I'll post it. Looks like you can buy handguns in other states on the surface of this. But like the other poster said, you would probably need a P2P. It would be like buying a long rifle in PA or elsewhere, with the required NJ P2P permit.

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Refreshing to see a case where Govt was put on spot to "justify" the useful nature of contended laws.

 

But (if)  with "must be legal and according to both states" language, FFLs could be on the hook to ensure NJ laws (and paperwork is followed). Isnt it why most of online retailers wont sell certain things without NJ FPID ?

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It could be like I could now go to Ohio or Indiana and buy a handgun just like I could in KY. But those in NJ, NY, IL, MA would still need the same permit and or waiting periods like they do now in their states that requires them.

 

One would hope the entire point of this is to eliminate the stranglehold placed by liberal democrat states.   Where as a resident of any state could go to a gun friendly state of their choosing, buy whatever they want, legally and bypass all the gun registration schemes of the marxist states.

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But it would be interesting to see how it would work out with a PA resident going to a NJ FFL and buy a handgun.

 

How would that work?

 

The NJ FFL calls PA's PICS?

 

NJ FFL  Gets a clear from PICS and the PA resident goes back to PA with their shiny new handgun?

 

Or a NJ resident going to PA to buy a handgun, just show the P2P PA FFL calls NJ NICS?

 

Or will all the state POC (Point Of Contacts) go by the wayside and the Federal NICS system is the only one to call in?

 

Yea, this is BIG.

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::::::::::::::::] failed to carry their burden to show how the federal interstate handgun transfer ban alleviates, in a material way, the problem of prohibited persons obtaining handguns simply by crossing state lines and depriving states of notice that they have under the amended version of the 1968 Gun Control Act.”:::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

 THIS part's a bit worrisome. if a person were prohibited here, wouldn't that person pretty much be prohibited anywhere?

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::::::::::::::::] failed to carry their burden to show how the federal interstate handgun transfer ban alleviates, in a material way, the problem of prohibited persons obtaining handguns simply by crossing state lines and depriving states of notice that they have under the amended version of the 1968 Gun Control Act.”:::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

 THIS part's a bit worrisome. if a person were prohibited here, wouldn't that person pretty much be prohibited anywhere?

For federal prohibitions, I think state ones might be able to be more strict?

 

Why would it be worrying?

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A lawyer on another forum http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9804066&postcount=5

 

 

"Before anyone gets too excited --

This is a trial court decision and is not precedent anywhere. It applies only to the parties and to this particular lawsuit. It is likely to be appealed.

On the other hand, it's a nicely reasoned decision for our side, and it's good to see this sort of routine application of Heller and the individual rights model of the Second Amendment. The more of these sorts of decision we see the more theses concepts will take hold.

This is one more brick added to the foundation of favorable Second Amendment rulings we need to build."

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A lawyer on another forum http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9804066&postcount=5

 

 

"Before anyone gets too excited --

 

This is a trial court decision and is not precedent anywhere. It applies only to the parties and to this particular lawsuit. It is likely to be appealed.

 

On the other hand, it's a nicely reasoned decision for our side, and it's good to see this sort of routine application of Heller and the individual rights model of the Second Amendment. The more of these sorts of decision we see the more theses concepts will take hold.

 

This is one more brick added to the foundation of favorable Second Amendment rulings we need to build."

I already said that.

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I posted this to another forum that has a lawyer as the moderator and if I get an answer before someone does here, I'll post it. Looks like you can buy handguns in other states on the surface of this. But like the other poster said, you would probably need a P2P. It would be like buying a long rifle in PA or elsewhere, with the required NJ P2P permit.

Why would you need a P2P? Do you think a dealer in Ohio would spend 20 minutes on that nonsense in addition to other documentation and background check?

 

If buying the gun in PA is legal, and transporting it directly home through NJ is legal, and owning a legally acquired gun is legal, what paperwork do you need? Seems to be similar to buying a rifle, where you go through the usual checks and drive home with it.

 

What obviously matters here is how far-ranging this decision is, and ... drum roll ... if dealers will not voluntarily follow the old system. 

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If this finding becomes further reaching - meaning the appeal is won on several levels, I believe that it will still boil down to a process similar to what we have now for long guns - that is the laws of both states - the state where purchased and the state of residence of the buyer - must be adhered to. Therefore a PA resident wishing to buy a handgun in NJ would have to have a P2P issued by NJ (I would expect the NJSP). NICS check is always done at the point of purchase - so if you are in PA a PICS check is done. POC's access the same FBI maintained data base for background checks, but POC's may check further in state databases - which would be moot for a non-resident. If you wanted to purchase a handgun in another state, you would still need a P2P. Someone asked what FFL would be bothered with all of the NJ paperwork - the answer is any that wish to make the sale.

 

This is a good first step - but a tiny step at that. It could be years, and many appeals won, before we see any positive change resulting from this ruling.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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If this finding becomes further reaching - meaning the appeal is won on several levels, I believe that it will still boil down to a process similar to what we have now for long guns - that is the laws of both states - the state where purchased and the state of residence of the buyer - must be adhered to. Therefore a PA resident wishing to buy a handgun in NJ would have to have a P2P issued by NJ (I would expect the NJSP). NICS check is always done at the point of purchase - so if you are in PA a PICS check is done. POC's access the same FBI maintained data base for background checks, but POC's may check further in state databases - which would be moot for a non-resident. If you wanted to purchase a handgun in another state, you would still need a P2P. Someone asked what FFL would be bothered with all of the NJ paperwork - the answer is any that wish to make the sale.

 

This is a good first step - but a tiny step at that. It could be years, and many appeals won, before we see any positive change resulting from this ruling.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Bob I respect your opinions but do you think that dealers across the river or in NJ for that matter are going to keep a file of the fifty different requirements for purchasing handguns from the 49+1 different states they now do business with? Seems to me -- and I am not advocating anything illegal by any means -- if a dealer in PA was eager to sell something and we bought it that you'd practically have to be arrested for rape on Rte. 80 at mid-day to get searched, the gun to be found, and you to be convicted. And there would be legal challenges even for that, even under our laws. But once the gun is home it's home.

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They did when I lived in Jersey and bought in PA.

 

They would be required to follow that law.

But even then you could not take possession of a handgun in PA correct? This ruling seems to change or at least challenge that. As long as the sale is legal I think dealers would probably follow their own states' laws instead of the laws of 49 other states. If this ruling means anything that's how it will pan out. You buy a gun in OH you follow their rules. Buy one in NJ and you follow their rules. Am I missing something?

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But even then you could not take possession of a handgun in PA correct? This ruling seems to change or at least challenge that. As long as the sale is legal I think dealers would probably follow their own states' laws instead of the laws of 49 other states. If this ruling means anything that's how it will pan out. You buy a gun in OH you follow their rules. Buy one in NJ and you follow their rules. Am I missing something?

Your question said FID. An FID is not required for a handgun.

 

FFLs are required to follow the laws of their own state and the state of the purchaser. All 52 of them (Obama reference).

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