ATF Classifies SS109 and M855 as Armor Piercing

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Page 17 of this document:

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

 

Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges will again be regulated as armor piercing ammunition.  Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition. 

[MidwestPX 172]

The timing seems "convenient" with the Sig brace ruling.  Almost like the ATF said, "Hey, people keep bugging us about AR pistols, doesn't this give us the justification to go after M855 and SS109 as AP ammo?"

[Dan 177]

The 2nd amendment is totally about sporting purposes.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Meh - ordered a little more M855 just in case.... Wideners has Federal Lake City M855 for a decent price.  About 37c/round after shipping

https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100001628&dir=

[45Doll 5,873]

Some of us will need to see a legal opinion on this. If M855 is classified as armor piercing will possession of it now be a felony in NJ?

 

I haven't reread the statute yet, but I believe 'armor piercing' ammo is prohibited in NJ.

[Dan 177]

Here's a good article on the power that the ATF has over determining if AP ammo is both used for handguns and whether or not it is used primarily for "sporting purposes" http://www.captainsjournal.com/2012/12/10/atf-ruling-on-sporting-purposes-exemption-to-armor-piercing-ammunition/

 

The intent of the original law back in 86' was to curb AP ammo that was designed for and primarily used in handguns. Think .357 ammo with a tungsten core. Because there are no protections in the broad power the ATF has over its definitions, they are now taking the fact that there is a whole new class of handguns that use ammo that was initially and primarily used in rifles.

 

Every time someone makes available a handgun that takes a rifle caliber cartridge, this triggers the super heroes at the BATFE to spring into action scrubbing the environment for any rifle ammo that could be defined as AP, then subsequently stamp it as "non-sporting purposes".

 

We had it happen to the russian 5.45 7N6 stuff once someone made an AK74 based pistol, and now SS109 because of all of the AR based pistols out there.

 

All of this was to supposedly save cops from exotic soft-body armor piercing handgun ammo. IMO, it was more about using any excuse they can in order to pump more cream filling into the anti-gun rights agenda's pie hole.

[Dan 177]

Some of us will need to see a legal opinion on this. If M855 is classified as armor piercing will possession of it now be a felony in NJ?

 

I haven't reread the statute yet, but I believe 'armor piercing' ammo is prohibited in NJ.

 

This ammo is not defined as armor piercing in NJ. NJ's AP ammo definition includes that it must be designed to be used primarily in a handgun, and also does not meet the other tests such as hardness.

 

It is not illegal to own or use at the federal level after the ATF ruling either. It is only not able to be sold any longer.

[siderman 1,137]

   I think its ok to have via (2)a. below but of course IANAL- from our Gun Law faq  (or am I interpreting it wrong?)

 

 

f. Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than.025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and © is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. For purposes of this section, a collector may possess not more than three examples of each distinctive variation of the ammunition described above. A distinctive variation includes a different head stamp, composition, design, or color.

 

(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

Some of us will need to see a legal opinion on this. If M855 is classified as armor piercing will possession of it now be a felony in NJ?

 

I haven't reread the statute yet, but I believe 'armor piercing' ammo is prohibited in NJ.

i don't think it is. could be wrong though.

[mipafox 438]

I know we are not talking about AP ammo here, but the ATF definitions of "AP" as handgun ammo designed to penetrate police vests. But I don't think M855 meets ANY of the ATF definitions. It does not have more than 25% by mass jacket, is not lead free, is not entirely constructed of listed materials.

 

I know it was previously specifically exempted by ATF, but I think that was simply to avoid confusion in the market. Not because it needed an exception.

 

I believe this is being done to put pressure on ammo costs for these types of firearms. In 2013 when dems were swinging around all the ban talk, they had no idea what was going to happen. They thought the NRA would get some fringe voters to knock a few dems out of the Senate like after the 1994 AWB. They had no idea that these firearms were the most popular in the country and that they had almost become mainstream. It was, no doubt, shocking and horrifying that their aspirations had zero chance. They want to make this too expensive and cumbersome to be popular. Progressives are delighted to wait a generation to see the fruits of their labors. That is why they are teaching all school children that guns are bad and even pointing a finger will result in an instant Pavlovian electrical shock. We face future challenges to say the least.

[Dan 177]

 That is why they are teaching all school children that guns are bad and even pointing a finger will result in an instant Pavlovian electrical shock. We face future challenges to say the least.

 

I know it is off topic, but this is huge. Kids can't talk about, draw, or even have pastries that were bitten into the shape of a gun while in school. The anti-gun rights folks (progressives included) are playing the long game. They know it will take a generational change to enact their 2A repeal/gun-ban faux utopia plan.

[Dan 177]

Oh and, yea, SS109 or M855 doesn't meet the other criteria to be considered real AP ammo. This is a case of ban by decree "just because we say so" by the BATFE. Implications are pretty big as it closes off all of our access to military surplus, both the in use SS109 and practice M855 stuff.

[dwamp2006 1]

funny how all the m855 is sold out now.... lol

[Kaiser7 33]

I know it is off topic, but this is huge. Kids can't talk about, draw, or even have pastries that were bitten into the shape of a gun while in school. The anti-gun rights folks (progressives included) are playing the long game. They know it will take a generational change to enact their 2A repeal/gun-ban faux utopia plan.

 

That's why it's all the more important to actively support, and foster young people to get into shooting.

 

I think that I'm one of the few who come from a family that ranges from simply "not-liking" guns, to being "passively antigun" (meaning my mom doesn't march with MDA, but  expresses her disapproval of firearms.) Anyway, I just sort of randomly got interested and pursued it. But many have no experience with guns.

 

I have tried to take as many people as I can shooting so that, even if they don't become gun owners, they get over their fear, and will at least not buy the BS the antigunners are shoveling.

[ogfarmer 138]

funny how all the m855 is sold out now.... lol

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/500-rds-pmc-m855-556x45mm-62-grain-fmj-ammo?a=1587054&CJ=1&cjaffilid=4084797&cjaffsite=Slickguns+Inc&cjadv=CJTSGUSA&cjadvid=1522857&utm_source=Slickguns+Inc&utm_medium=CJ&utm_campaign=SPG+Product+Catalog+-+SportsmansGuide.com

[Krdshrk 3,877]

http://www.sgammo.com/product/223-556mm/1000-round-can-556mm-gp21-ss109-m855-62-grain-penetrator-nato-spec-ammo-made-lithu

 

LOL good thing I ordered when I did... 

 

Anyway.... I think so many people made a fuss about the Sig Brace that the BATF suddenly went "wow there's a lot of people with AR pistols".... and if you have 5.56 AP "Pistol" ammo.... Let's ban it!

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

And all the in-stock (yesterday) SS109 projectiles disappeared overnight at Wideners.

[MidwestPX 172]

And all the in-stock (yesterday) SS109 projectiles disappeared overnight at Wideners.

I should call my buddy who demils ammo for the DoD and see if he has any M855 pulled bullets I can throw on gunbroker.  I don't load 62gr because it's not that great of a bullet to begin with.  I'd rather push the 55gr pills faster.  The only 62s I load for 5.56 are M856 tracers for machine guns.

[mipafox 438]

 

I should call my buddy who demils ammo for the DoD and see if he has any M855 pulled bullets I can throw on gunbroker.  I don't load 62gr because it's not that great of a bullet to begin with.  I'd rather push the 55gr pills faster.  The only 62s I load for 5.56 are M856 tracers for machine guns.

 

 

M196 are better. They burn bright red and light up right out of the barrel. Me and a buddy bought a bunch of them a couple years ago when a big batch came into the country and shooting them out of M16s is like Star Wars on meth

[Shawnmoore81 623]

It's showing up as sold out on the wholesale level at most places

[intercooler 41]

wideners has projectiles in stock

[302w 83]

So... M193 and M193 will forever be banned commercially now?

 

Funny since M193 is just a 224 FMJ at 3300ish(?) FPS

[RUTGERS95 890]

enough is enough and it should be challenged.  They simply cannot make arbitrary rules and that is codified in law and precedent.

 

Also, it's time to challenge executive action

[intercooler 41]

it's their end game...can't ban the gun? ban the ammo

they have been trying to ban lead ammo for years, now they want to ban any steel ammo too...

see the correlation?

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

And soon drinking straws will be banned as "dangerous spitball delivery systems"

[JackDaWack 2,895]

So... M193 and M193 will forever be banned commercially now?

 

Funny since M193 is just a 224 FMJ at 3300ish(?) FPS

It clearly states penatrator bullets and m855 cartridges.

 

 

How would this be challenged? M855 is not even classified as armor piercing, they literally just made this shit up.

[302w 83]

It clearly states penatrator bullets and m855 cartridges.

 

Read it wrong, sprry

How would this be challenged? M855 is not even classified as armor piercing, they literally just made this shit up.

[302w 83]

It clearly states penatrator bullets and m855 cartridges.

 

Read it wrong, sorry.

How would this be challenged? M855 is not even classified as armor piercing, they literally just made this shit up.

[DeerSlayer 241]

The 2nd amendment is totally about sporting purposes.

You must have watched the liberal version of the 2A I posted in daily humor lol... "Because this thing is Tottaly about hunting guys"....

[Dan 177]

You must have watched the liberal version of the 2A I posted in daily humor lol... "Because this thing is Tottaly about hunting guys"....

 

Hahah, exactly I did! "I'm toooootally serious guys, we're going to leave this thing wiiiide open to interpretation."