International Terror Watch List - Not Part of background check for gun permits

[AVB-AMG 530]

I am attaching a link to an interesting newspaper article that I read today, Feb. 26, 2015.
It is about the fact that when a state performs a background check on an individual who is applying for a gun permit, in NJ, a Firearms Purchaser ID card as well as a pistol purchase permit(s), the state agency doing the checking DOES NOT also cross-reference names on the international terror watch list.

With all of the growing terrorist events around the world, I just assumed, (mistakenly so…), that a thorough and rigorous background check would include this, but apparently it does not.
I believe it is time to add this step to all states background checks that are for gun permit applications.
It does not infringe upon US Citizens Constitutional 2nd Amendment rights and we all would be much safer as a result.
Here is the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/26/opinion/gun-rights-for-terrorists.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

 

Am I alone or in the minority in this forum in having incorrectly assumed that the international terror watch list was included in background checks….?

AVB-AMG

[JT Custom Guns 956]

You would think they would cross-check but apparently they haven't gotten

to that point yet where the systems can interface.

I'm sure if you give the govt. another 2-3 years they will get to it............ 

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I thought that this bill was proposed in NJ and rejected, but someone said that it had passed. Regardless, I strongly disagree with your (and the NYT's) position.

 

Nobody knows how the TWL is compiled and once you are listed on it, no one knows how to remove their name. There is no due process for being placed on the list - it can be simple innuendo or an error, but because you can't challenge it, you're stuck.

 

This is a gross infringement on our right of due process and further erosion of our constitutional rights. This is a very slippery slope and I think that you need to rethink the ramifications.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob 

[djg0770 481]

I do not approve of any list that cannot be examined by the public, nor queried by any person.  I further want to know EXACTLY what activities lands one on this watch list, and how many hoops does one have to jump through to get off such a list if incorrectly placed on the list.

 

There's a member on this forum who has the same first, middle, last name, and birthdate as a convicted felon.  He has detailed his "hoop jumping" just to resolve this when his social security number is not the same as the felonious person of the same name.  As I understand it he even had to get a SPECIAL SBI number to avoid constant NICS delays.

 

Furthermore, anything in the hands of the government is a recipe for disaster.

 

I strongly object to using "the terrorist watch list" (what is it's real name, how many names are on it and how many are citizens?) for any denial of RIGHTS to legitimate American Citizens.  Or have we morphed into a country where the authorities have the RIGHT to demand "PAPERS PLEASE"???

 

 

 

Oh - and 5 posts... 

[AVB-AMG 530]

Did some of you actually read this article....or just jumping to conclusions?

 

I think that the majority of US citizens are more concerned about thwarting possible terrorist events on US soil than the remote possibility of being improperly placed on the international terror watch list.

Keep in mind that that vast majority of people on this list are foreigners, not American citizens.
What is the point of a supposedly thorough background check if it misses some glaring reasons to, at the very least, question the applicant on some uncovered issues...?

I am for these basic steps necessary for Americans (specifically NJ residents), to be able to get their Firearms ID card and to purchase handguns.

This is not a black & white or either/or issue.

I believe the pros far outweigh the cons of possible mistaken listing on this list of Americans for inaccurate reasons.

AVB-AMG

[djg0770 481]

 

Keep in mind that that vast majority of people on this list are foreigners, not American citizens.

 

Where? show me...

 

Tell me, if your name is on the list tomorrow (incorrectly) how do you get off?  Where's your due process?

[SmartAss 11]

The terror watch list bill was signed by the governor on 8/8/13...

 

A3687 ScaSa (2R) Disqualifies person named on federal Terrorist Watchlist from obtaining firearms identification card or permit to purchase handgun.  

Bills and Joint Resolutions Signed by the Governor

[Double Cheese 8]

Here's a video of the debate in the NJ Assembly:

 

 

Linda Stender argues that known terrorists shouldn't be able to purchase firearms. I think if you're a known terrorist, you're probably not going to go through NJ's permitting process. 

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

Where? show me...

 

Tell me, if your name is on the list tomorrow (incorrectly) how do you get off?  Where's your due process?

 

Soooooo this.

 

Please show me the detailed due process for determining who is added to TWL and the process for appealing an unjustified addition.

 

Hypothetical - say that this passes, and the TWL becomes part of the background check for firearms purchases without any reforms or oversight on how the list is compiled or the process for appealing being placed on the list.

 

The government would then have a nearly unregulated and un-appealable mechanism for denying firearm purchases.  Go directly to denied background checks, do not pass Judge, do not pass Jury.

 

Did you buy more than 1,000 rounds last year, or did you purchase a lot of powder, primer and reloading components?  Possible domestic terrorist, on the TWL you go.

Do you already have "too many" firearms, or did you buy more than a certain amount in a certain period of time?  Possible domestic terrorist, on the TWL you go.

Are you active with the "wrong" political organizations, or do you make blog/facebook posts critical of the gov't?  To the TWL with you, you terr'ist!

 

Never happen?  Sure, just like the gov't will never traffic firearms to cartels, will never use the IRS as a political pawn, and will never intercept domestic communications or insert cryptographic backdoors into domestic communications infrastructure.

[Qel Hoth 33]

 

Linda Stender argues that known terrorists shouldn't be able to purchase firearms. I think if you're a known terrorist, you're probably not going to go through NJ's permitting process. 

 

If you truly are a known terrorist there should be a conviction or pending criminal charges.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

The terror watch list bill was signed by the governor on 8/8/13...

 

A3687 ScaSa (2R) Disqualifies person named on federal Terrorist Watchlist from obtaining firearms identification card or permit to purchase handgun.  

Bills and Joint Resolutions Signed by the Governor

 

Is that only for NJ background checks?

[maintenanceguy 510]

They don't check the terror watch list because the list is a secret.   The NJSP doesn't have access to it.  

 

I would object to checking this list because

(1) There is no due process to get on or off the list

(2) The list is a secret and not subject to any public review or challenge.

(3) If John Smith is on the list - all the other John Smiths will be rejected

(4) The John Smith that doesn't belong on the list can get a card from TSA that lets him fly anyway.   No such mechanism exists with background checks.

(5) There are specific things that disqualify someone from exercising this constitutionally guaranteed right under Federal law.  Being on a secret government list that you can't challenge, won't be told how you got on the list, and can't have your rights restored if you're the wrong guy on the list, isn't one of those disqualifying things - thankfully.

 

 

 

 

The governor signed the bill but it can't be implimented.

[n4p226r 105]

Don't feed the trolls

[djg0770 481]

If you truly are a known terrorist there should be a conviction or pending criminal charges.

 

Like those true known terrorists in Guantanamo bay???

[djg0770 481]

 

 

Never happen?  Sure, just like the gov't will never traffic firearms to cartels, will never use the IRS as a political pawn, and will never intercept domestic communications or insert cryptographic backdoors into domestic communications infrastructure.

 

THIS!

[AVB-AMG 530]

DirtyDigz makes some thoughtful and valid points and raises some interesting questions in his #9 post.... Thank you.

Smart Ass and Double Cheese: Thanks for the update on the specifics of this in NJ. It helps understand where we currently stand.

 

Why are the names of individuals on the international terror watch list a secret???

Why not make it very public, with easy access to everyone via the internet.

Also, if your name appears there should be a clearly stated process that one must follow to appeal the posting and to remove your name for valid reasons.

 

This may sound simplistic but it should be the goal.

 

Oh and djg0770, are you taking a shot at me for just starting to post here with only 5 posts so far...?

and are you insinuating that I am a troll....? (My wife certainly does not think so), and by the way, I count only 4 Trols in your photo.

Is that what members do here to encourage a thoughful discussion or debate on an internet blog?

Or am I taking this too personal?

 

We use the same GFH Range, so I would be happy to introduce myself to you there some time...

 

AVB-AMG

[JC_68Westy 1,024]

Did some of you actually read this article....or just jumping to conclusions?

 

I think that the majority of US citizens are more concerned about thwarting possible terrorist events on US soil than the remote possibility of being improperly placed on the international terror watch list.

Keep in mind that that vast majority of people on this list are foreigners, not American citizens.

What is the point of a supposedly thorough background check if it misses some glaring reasons to, at the very least, question the applicant on some uncovered issues...?

 

I am for these basic steps necessary for Americans (specifically NJ residents), to be able to get their Firearms ID card and to purchase handguns.

 

This is not a black & white or either/or issue.

I believe the pros far outweigh the cons of possible mistaken listing on this list of Americans for inaccurate reasons.

 

AVB-AMG

I am completely opposed to the entire process.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

DirtyDigz makes some thoughtful and valid points in his #9 post.... Thank you.

 

Why are the names of individuals on the international terror watch list a secret???

Why not make it very public, with easy access to everyone via the internet.

 

My understanding is that the composition of the TWL was originally intended to be kept secret, so that a terrorist will not know if he/she is on the list until they actually attempt to fly.  This was before the TWL started to experience "mission creep".

 

 

Also, if your name appears there should be a clearly stated process that one must follow to appeal the posting and to remove your name for valid reasons.

 

This may sound simplistic but it should be the goal.

 

Yes, I agree - if there was a clear process that did not leave the decision entirely to one sub-branch of the government with no oversight, regulation, accountability or penalties for abuse of process then I might be more open to the idea.

 

 

Or am I taking this too personal?

 

Yep, don't get bent out of shape.  Strong opinions, acerbic manners and general grouchiness have been a part of every gun forum I've seen.

 

Welcome, by the way!

[CMJeepster 2,777]

I would object to checking this list because

(3) If John Smith is on the list - all the other John Smiths will be rejected

My father and I shared (he's dead now) the same name. For a while, he wrongly and without my permission used my address on insurance and other documents. I had a hell of a mess on my hands dealing with creditors, banks, insurance companies, etc. when I sold the house at that address. It took time, money & effort to get stuff cleared up.

 

As stated above, bad guys aren't buying firearms through the system.

[AVB-AMG 530]

Thanks DirtyDigz

I sense that you have a very methodical and reasonable approach to this topic, as well as these types of blogs.

I appreciate your even handidness and fair outlook.

 

I assume that most people on this forum would have serious issues with this particular topic but hopefully would be open to a discussion of the pros and cons and realistic potential problems that go with any well-intended legislation instituting laws and regulations.

 

AVB-AMG

[AVB-AMG 530]

As stated above, bad guys aren't buying firearms through the system.

I agree with CMJeepster. This is probably one of the most important assumptions on this issue and should not be lost on the general public.

I read a recent study, (sorry I do not remember exactly where), that stated most handguns used in crimes in NJ are not the more expensive ($550 on up) brand name models that most of us enjoy and purchase, but rather very low end / low cost guns purchased illegally (or sometimes legally), outside of NJ, such as VA or other states and brought into NJ illegally.

AVB-AMG

[1LtCAP 4,262]

Did some of you actually read this article....or just jumping to conclusions?

 

I think that the majority of US citizens are more concerned about thwarting possible terrorist events on US soil than the remote possibility of being improperly placed on the international terror watch list.

Keep in mind that that vast majority of people on this list are foreigners, not American citizens.

What is the point of a supposedly thorough background check if it misses some glaring reasons to, at the very least, question the applicant on some uncovered issues...?

 

I am for these basic steps necessary for Americans (specifically NJ residents), to be able to get their Firearms ID card and to purchase handguns.

 

This is not a black & white or either/or issue.

I believe the pros far outweigh the cons of possible mistaken listing on this list of Americans for inaccurate reasons.

 

AVB-AMG

if you trust someone to walk amongst yourself, and those you love, then you should be able to trust them with a gun. after all, you're already trusting them with much more dangerous weapons than guns.

[10X 3,296]

For one spectacular example of how such super-secret lists can be abused, look no further than this:  http://www.loweringthebar.net/2011/02/immigration-officer-puts-wife-on-the-no-fly-list.html

 

Ok, on some level that one is hilarious...but it's still VERY VERY wrong.

[Zeke 5,504]

Here's a video of the debate in the NJ Assembly:

 

 

Linda Stender argues that known terrorists shouldn't be able to purchase firearms. I think if you're a known terrorist, you're probably not going to go through NJ's permitting process.

Linda Stender bilked habitat for humanities out of $11,000. It's coming out now.

 

Twl is bullshit! One day every good citizen may be on it.

 

Are there no good honest people that run our government?

[Tack Tickle 0]

The no fly list does not work.

 

"U.S. Sen. Edward M. "Ted" Kennedy said yesterday that he was stopped and questioned at airports on the East Coast five times in March because his name appeared on the government's secret "no-fly" list.

 

Federal air security officials said the initial error that led to scrutiny of the Massachusetts Democrat should not have happened even though they recognize that the no-fly list is imperfect. But privately they acknowledged being embarrassed that it took the senator and his staff more than three weeks to get his name removed.

 

A senior administration official, who spoke on condition he not be identified, said Kennedy was stopped because the name "T. Kennedy" has been used as an alias by someone on the list of terrorist suspects."

[maintenanceguy 510]

In a world that made sense, there would be no background check at all.  Criminals that will commit violent crimes aren't submitting to these checks so they only apply to the good guys anyway.   Clearly, these background checks aren't having any effect on criminals since they continue to find sources of firearms.