Acquiring sick uncles guns.

[Eric. 9]

There is no borrowing language in the firearms statutes.  There are transfers.  Temporary or Permanent. 

 

Temporary transfers can occur at a gun range as long as the owner is present.   They can occur at gun shop and for minors while hunting.  That's it.

And... This is why he shouldn't be taking legal advice from a forum:

 

2c:58-3.1 (please read all of the subsections too).

 

 

Eric

[PD2K 115]

There is no borrowing language in the firearms statutes.  There are transfers.  Temporary or Permanent. 

 

Temporary transfers can occur at a gun range as long as the owner is present.   They can occur at gun shop and for minors while hunting.  That's it.

 

Exactly. If you remove the firearms from your uncle's home, you can be charged with illegal possession of a firearm if he reports them missing. And oh yeah, I'm not a lawyer so please consult one.

[Malsua 1,422]

And... This is why he shouldn't be taking legal advice from a forum:

 

2c:58-3.1 (please read all of the subsections too).

 

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

Did you read the statute  yourself?   Temporary transfers of handguns, rifles and shotguns can take place at a gun range under supervision of the owner.  They can take place in the woods for rifles and shotguns for hunting with the appropriate hunting license.   The owner in that case has to be in the vicinity.  There is no "borrow it, go home, come back later"

[PD2K 115]

Did you read the statute  yourself?   Temporary transfers of handguns, rifles and shotguns can take place at a gun range under supervision of the owner.  They can take place in the woods for rifles and shotguns for hunting with the appropriate hunting license.   The owner in that case has to be in the vicinity.  There is no "borrow it, go home, come back later"

 

Let's even put it another way. Can your wife (-EDIT- who is not the legal owner of the firearms), take your guns to the range without you present? Of course not, so why would you believe you are able take the uncle's firearms?

[Eric. 9]

Did you read the statute  yourself?   Temporary transfers of handguns, rifles and shotguns can take place at a gun range under supervision of the owner.  They can take place in the woods for rifles and shotguns for hunting with the appropriate hunting license.   The owner in that case has to be in the vicinity.  There is no "borrow it, go home, come back later"

I did read it.  The only part you are correct in, is that you cannot borrow the guns without the owner present.

 

The part where you are incorrect is where you said "There is no borrowing of firearms in NJ except for hunting by Juveniles." This is about as wrong of a statement as there can be.

 

Your other statement is also misleading: "Temporary transfers can occur at a gun range as long as the owner is present.   They can occur at gun shop and for minors while hunting.  That's it."

 

That most certainly is NOT it.  Borrowing can occur in my basement, your living room or in the middle of the friggin woods.  There is no stipulation that it can ONLY occur at gun shops or ranges.

 

Temporary transfer and "borrow" are synonymous.

 

Once again, THIS is why I strongly suggested that the OP consult with a lawyer.  I'm no legal expert...but neither are you.

 

 

Eric

[Malsua 1,422]

I did read it.  The only part you are correct in, is that you cannot borrow the guns without the owner present.

 

The part where you are incorrect is where you said "There is no borrowing of firearms in NJ except for hunting by Juveniles." This is about as wrong of a statement as there can be.

 

Your other statement is also misleading: "Temporary transfers can occur at a gun range as long as the owner is present.   They can occur at gun shop and for minors while hunting.  That's it."

 

That most certainly is NOT it.  Borrowing can occur in my basement, your living room or in the middle of the friggin woods.  There is no stipulation that it can ONLY occur at gun shops or ranges.

 

Temporary transfer and "borrow" are synonymous.

 

Once again, THIS is why I strongly suggested that the OP consult with a lawyer.  I'm no legal expert...but neither are you.

 

 

Eric

 

Wow, you just don't get it.

 

You cannot give a gun to someone else in your basement.  It's simply not legal.    Range, or woods.  Not basement or living room. 

 

You apparently cannot read either.   The only one that applies to a person is Range.  Are you a Law enforcement Agency, a military Organization or a Rifle and Pistol club which submits its members to the superintendent?  If not, Range or Woods.

 

if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

 

If hunting...

 

if the transfer is made in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State

 

Now, unless you have a stream running through your basement, that's not really a "water of the state".

[PK90 3,570]

Q? What allows a NJ Dealer to hand a gun to another at his shop?

[Eric. 9]

Wow, you just don't get it.

 

You cannot give a gun to someone else in your basement.  It's simply not legal.    Range, or woods.  Not basement or living room. 

 

You apparently cannot read either.   The only one that applies to a person is Range.  Are you a Law enforcement Agency, a military Organization or a Rifle and Pistol club which submits its members to the superintendent?  If not, Range or Woods.

 

if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

 

If hunting...

 

if the transfer is made in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State

 

Now, unless you have a stream running through your basement, that's not really a "water of the state".

Ok, I see what I'm dealing with.  You never admit when you are wrong about something, do you?  Are you the type that keeps focusing on minutaie until you appear to sound like you are right again?

 

The original reference I made was about borrowing guns.  While I was not completely correct, because, as I stated, I am not a legal expert, I was correct in that ANYONE can borrow a gun (they have to follow the legal stipulations).

 

YOU attempt to correct me by saying "There is no borrowing of firearms in NJ except for hunting by Juveniles."  This has to be the most uninformed and incorrect post in this whole thread. You can borrow a gun.  Also, the NJSA makes note about being over 18 and makes NO reference to juveniles or "hunting by juveinles".

 

I provided you with the NJSA.

 

At this point, there is no need to debate the Statute.  I've already acknowledged that I am no legal expert.  MAybe you should step off too, since you've already made uninformed, non-expert statements.

 

 

Eric

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Let's try to make some things clear here.

 

"Borrowing a gun" = can mean several different things.  That's why there's language for temporary vs permanent transfer.

 

Showing your buddy your gun in your basement?  That's not borrowing a gun or transferring - it's still in your "possession."

Going to your basement and giving a buddy one of your guns for him to bring home for a week?  That's not a legal transfer... The only way it would be legal is if they have a NJ FID and you both fill out CoE's or Pistol Permits if it's a pistol.  That's a permanent transfer.  Then you do another permanent transfer to get it back.

 

At a range, letting someone shoot your gun in the port?  That's not a transfer or really even borrowing - it's in your "possession" the whole time..

 

When you're hunting, letting your kid use your shotgun (because they're a minor and can't legally own the gun) is a temporary transfer... and the ONLY kind of temporary transfer that's allowed.

[Malsua 1,422]

Ok, I see what I'm dealing with.  You never admit when you are wrong about something, do you?  Are you the type that keeps focusing on minutaie until you appear to sound like you are right again?

 

The original reference I made was about borrowing guns.  While I was not completely correct, because, as I stated, I am not a legal expert, I was correct in that ANYONE can borrow a gun (they have to follow the legal stipulations).

 

YOU attempt to correct me by saying "There is no borrowing of firearms in NJ except for hunting by Juveniles."  This has to be the most uninformed and incorrect post in this whole thread. You can borrow a gun.  Also, the NJSA makes note about being over 18 and makes NO reference to juveniles or "hunting by juveinles".

 

I provided you with the NJSA.

 

At this point, there is no need to debate the Statute.  I've already acknowledged that I am no legal expert.  MAybe you should step off too, since you've already made uninformed, non-expert statements.

 

 

Eric

 

You cannot borrow a gun in NJ.  Period.  It's a transfer.  There is or was language in the hunting regs referencing juveniles borrowing guns but they were referring to transfers.    The statutes only discuss transfers of which there are two types, temporary and permanent and when they are allowed.

[Big Mack 5]

Yea I'm not sure if I'm missing something grey here but I was always under the idea that the only way one can borrow/use a firearm not belonging to them is if the owner was present. Either way it's not something I would even play around with, or consider. I appreciate all the input though.

[Eric. 9]

You cannot borrow a gun in NJ.  Period.  It's a transfer.  There is or was language in the hunting regs referencing juveniles borrowing guns but they were referring to transfers.    The statutes only discuss transfers of which there are two types, temporary and permanent and when they are allowed.

OMG, lolol.

 

You love to play semantics, huh?

 

Temporary Transfer=borrow

 

Permanent Transfer=sale

 

You most certainly can borrow a gun, provided that you only do it in the way it is spellednout in the NJSA.

 

Like I said before, neither one of us are experts on this matter (although only one of us is focusing on one semantic to try to show he was right). With respect to the OP, he doesn't need the arm chair quarterbacks, he needs good legal advice. 

 

*Period*

 

 

Eric

[Malsua 1,422]

You seem to be hung up on the fact that you think Borrow = Transfer = Borrow.

 

They have different legal meanings.

 

If you let someone borrow your car and they go get in an accident with it, you can be held liable.

 

If you transfer your car to someone, legally, they are 100% responsible for it.

 

I realize you think it's a distinction without a difference.   It is exactly these kinds of things that can get you jammed up in NJ law.

[Eric. 9]

Listen, you are not qualified to interpret the law (neither am I).

 

One interesting point is that a Temporary Transfer involves very little, if any formal process. the only stipulations are that it has to occur in a legal area i.e.the woods, etc. there are no forms to fill out, there are no third-party witnesses and there is no registration. so, in practice, it could be something as informal as a gun owner pulling a spare gun out of his bag and handing it to you to use for up to 8hours.

 

Ponder that.

 

 

Eric

[Krdshrk 3,877]

so, in practice, it could be something as informal as a gun owner pulling a spare gun out of his bag and handing it to you to use for up to 8hours.

 

Ponder that.

 

 

Eric

 

Your friend pulls the spare gun out of his bag and then what?  Are you at the range?  At his house?  At a bank wearing ski masks?

Does he stay with you while you're using it?  Or did you get it from his house then go to the range?

[PD2K 115]

Listen, you are not qualified to interpret the law (neither am I).

 

One interesting point is that a Temporary Transfer involves very little, if any formal process. the only stipulations are that it has to occur in a legal area i.e.the woods, etc. there are no forms to fill out, there are no third-party witnesses and there is no registration. so, in practice, it could be something as informal as a gun owner pulling a spare gun out of his bag and handing it to you to use for up to 8hours.

 

Ponder that.

 

 

Eric

 

Yes a firearm owner can let someone use his firearm but (1) only if you're hunting or at the range, and (2) the firearm owner is present.

 

A firearm owner cannot "pull[ing] a spare gun out of his bag and hand[ing] it to you to use for up to 8hours" without both above requirements met.

[Eric. 9]

Krdshrk, if you go back to my post, i mentioned "legal area i.e. the woods".

 

 

Eric

[Eric. 9]

PD2K,

 

We've already clarified that, earlier.

 

 

Eric

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Ok so you're in the woods, hunting.  Your friend lets you use his gun since you forgot yours, breaks, etc... That's like borrowing when you're at the range - he's still in possession of the gun, he's there with you.  If, however, he goes home... then that's (by definition of law) an illegal transfer...  Though if you fill out 2 CoE's (1 for each of you) before he leaves, then that's a legal (permanent) transfer...

[PK90 3,570]

If a gun is borrowed in the woods, does anyone ever know?

[CMJeepster 2,777]

If a gun is borrowed in the woods, does anyone ever know?

[JeremyP 0]

I don't know what the process would be like in NJ, or if it is legally allowed, but discuss with a lawyer the option of putting the guns into a gun trust. Talk to a firearms lawyer. Gun trusts are not the same as revocable living trusts. I know people with NFA items use gun trusts to allow others to possess their NFA stuff and the future hassle of getting it transferred to their successors once they die. I would imagine it would be agreeable to your uncle if you allowed him to keep the guns (minus the bolts and firing pins, etc.) and name you as a beneficiary, so should he pass, his wife wouldn't automatically inherit the guns. Although, if you get him to sign anything now, it could be argued he wasn't in the proper mental state and you took advantage.

 

I am not a lawyer, but thought a gun trust seems like a good compromise (on top of neutering his firearms for the time being). He keeps his guns, you get them if things take a turn for the worse.