shot gun home defense ammo what is recommended?

[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

I'll take you for your word, and i believe the alphabet agencies use #4, but in a Home Defense situation does it really matter if the perp is hit with 27 22 caliber pellets or 9 32 caliber pellets?

If you're talking about a soft target at close range it probably doesn't make a difference.  I prefer OO.

Ray, last I heard all the Federal agencies usually use OO.  Some additionally  have #4 buck as authorized ammo.

[High Exposure 5,664]

2 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

Home Defense!  We talking Defensa del hogar!

We are not talking about any other uses.  

 

Rounds designed for self defense don’t care who uses them. The best round is the best round.

What is the difference between stopping a deadly threat in a house whether you are wearing your pajamas or a blue uniform?

A deadly force encounter, when all the chips are on the line, is not the time to use second best. Especially when there are proven better options out there.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

8 hours ago, GRIZ said:

If you're talking about a soft target at close range it probably doesn't make a difference. 

I know this, you know this but our friend @High Exposure sadly does not.  We can only educate those who seek knowledge from the enlightened ones here like ourselves @GRIZ.  If they choose to absorb it is up to them.

[Owen54 4]

18 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

What's your point?

Dude I've only been on here for a couple months and you people are worse that Millennials on Facebook. You guys are rude as fuck and I'm pretty sure most of you are pretty nice guys in the real world. I'm not feeding into this bullshit. I'll go to another forum and try to read adults acting like adults. 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

23 hours ago, Indianajonze said:

Oh yes. I'll keep that in mind when I'm required by NJ law to smuggle my family out of a bedroom window when bad guys break in because of "duty to retreat"

I'll try to answer my own earlier questions as I've been researching all weekend. It turns out sabots are used mostly for dedicated hunting rifles as they require rifled barrels, which most hd shotguns don't have. Also, they're used for long ranges (200-300+ yards). Clearly not ideal for hd. Rifled slugs seem like a good viable option vs standard buckshot. Have to research further but looks promising.

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk
 

within you dwelling, this does not exist.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

12 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

You hit a dude dead center in the chest with:

Slug:  dead

00Buck: dead

#4Buck:  dead

 

AAHHH.....but...suppose the defender does not score a hit in the chest, considering that many(most) will not be accurate under the duress of home defense?

47 minutes ago, Owen54 said:

Dude I've only been on here for a couple months and you people are worse that Millennials on Facebook. You guys are rude as fuck and I'm pretty sure most of you are pretty nice guys in the real world. I'm not feeding into this bullshit. I'll go to another forum and try to read adults acting like adults. 

i'm not seeing a ton of rudeness? i'm seeing people discussing.....sometimes being a little belligerent....but not rude. that's what we see in the 1a lounge.

[Scorpio64 5,153]

Just now, 1LtCAP said:

AAHHH.....but...suppose the defender does not score a hit in the chest, considering that many(most) will not be accurate under the duress of home defense?

Unless you live in a mansion, the average home defense encounter wont be more than 5 yards. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

2 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

I know this, you know this but our friend @High Exposure sadly does not.  We can only educate those who seek knowledge from the enlightened ones here like ourselves @GRIZ.  If they choose to absorb it is up to them.

Yes Ray but of the 3 options (slug, 00, and #4)  why not just load OO and then you're good from close to intermediate range.  Slugs have range but penetrate too much.  #4 makes a lot more holes but doesn't penetrate well.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 minute ago, Scorpio64 said:

Unless you live in a mansion, the average home defense encounter wont be more than 5 yards. 

i've watched guys do mag dumps at only 5-7 yards, and not put a single round on paper.

[Scorpio64 5,153]

Just now, 1LtCAP said:

i've watched guys do mag dumps at only 5-7 yards, and not put a single round on paper.

Well, maybe they will be more focused if their life is on the line, that or darwin takes over.

[High Exposure 5,664]

6 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

Well, maybe they will be more focused if their life is on the line, that or darwin takes over.

Sadly it’s usually the opposite.

You can count on at least a 50% degradation in skill when it’s for real.

[High Exposure 5,664]

4 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

I know this, you know this but our friend @High Exposure sadly does not.  We can only educate those who seek knowledge from the enlightened ones here like ourselves @GRIZ.  If they choose to absorb it is up to them.

It’s not I don’t think #4 could do the job, it’s I know 00B (maybe #1) will do it better. I don’t aspire to mediocrity and I want the deck stacked in my favor at all times. I want every possible advantage I can get my hands on.

Another point to consider, do they make #4 in a Flight Control wad? So now you are choosing lesser performing ammo, that doesn’t shoot as tight a group. 

That is a huge deciding factor for me in shotgun SD ammo. Even if #4 proved to be slightly better, I think I would still choose something that is Flite Control.

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

Well, maybe they will be more focused if their life is on the line, that or darwin takes over.

no. we all like to think we're "billy badass" and will do everything perfectly. the fact is that we can practice and train to mitigate the possibility of mistakes some....but 99% of us will end up doing something not nearly as well as we like to think we'll do it under the circumstances.

[124gr9mm 859]

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

i've watched guys do mag dumps at only 5-7 yards, and not put a single round on paper.

That's scary.

I totally believe it, but it's crazy to think it's possible.

Practice, Practice, Practice...

[Krdshrk 3,877]

3 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

i've watched guys do mag dumps at only 5-7 yards, and not put a single round on paper.

 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

1 hour ago, 124gr9mm said:

That's scary.

I totally believe it, but it's crazy to think it's possible.

Practice, Practice, Practice...

it is. i've seen em put them in the floor, and ceiling. i generally make it a point to point these things out to the rso on duty, 'cause i don't need some dimwit shooting me 'cause he's incompetent.

[Parker 213]

At the celebrated distance of 7 yards (a long room's length,) depending on the load; your pattern should be 7" when using buckshot. A distance of five yards could be winnow that spread down to 5". (standard rule of thumb for pattern is 1"/yard)

Knowing that, you can easily miss in haste and the heat of conflict. The assumed benefits of a "scattergun" in close confines aren't so scatterly. 

    

 

 

[High Exposure 5,664]

A 7” pattern at 7 yards? That doesn’t sound so good for HD. Hunting maybe.

For example - 

At 5 yards, from a 14” barrelled 870P (modified choke) the Federal Flite Control looks like a slug. 

At 7 yards, it is only ever so slightly bigger.

At 15 yards maybe 3” spread.

At 25 yards all 8 pellets in an 9” circle (patterned all pellets in a circle bathing from 8” at the smallest to 10” at the biggest, so I’ll call it 9”)

[GRIZ 3,369]

22 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

A 7” pattern at 7 yards? That doesn’t sound so good for HD. Hunting maybe.

For example - 

At 5 yards, from a 14” barrelled 870P (modified choke) the Federal Flite Control looks like a slug. 

At 7 yards, it is only ever so slightly bigger.

At 15 yards maybe 3” spread.

At 25 yards all 8 pellets in an 9” circle (patterned all pellets in a circle bathing from 8” at the smallest to 10” at the biggest, so I’ll call it 9”)

An inch a yard is about what full power 9 pellet OO does with an open choke.  Full power also tends to donut as range increases.  You can consider yourself lucky if you hit a full size silhouette target at 25 yds with 1 or 2 pellets with that combination.

Shooting Remington Reduced Recoil 8 pellet in a Shockwave I pretty much got the same results as you relate.  Maybe a little bigger pattern at 25, like 10-12".

[Ray Ray 3,566]

5 hours ago, High Exposure said:

It’s not I don’t think #4 could do the job, it’s I know 00B (maybe #1) will do it better. I don’t aspire to mediocrity and I want the deck stacked in my favor at all times. I want every possible advantage I can get my hands on.

Another point to consider, do they make #4 in a Flight Control wad? So now you are choosing lesser performing ammo, that doesn’t shoot as tight a group. 

That is a huge deciding factor for me in shotgun SD ammo. Even if #4 proved to be slightly better, I think I would still choose something that is Flite Control.

I do not use #4 or Slugs or 00 or #1.  I use High Brass BB shot. 

[High Exposure 5,664]

[PK90 3,570]

The larger the spread the better, for home defense.

[Parker 213]

3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Full power also tends to donut as range increases.  You can consider yourself lucky if you hit a full size silhouette target at 25 yds with 1 or 2 pellets with that combination.

 

So true. That's because without the merits of a wad, like the FliteControl, those soft lead pellets deform and those with a flattened side from scrubbing along the barrel as they exit or mash into each other now become fliers and gravitate toward to edge of the pattern. (ALL sizes of lead shot show this attribute when fired, even #9's!) Lead shot, hardened lead shot, copper-plated shot, nickeled shot, shot in a wad, shot without a wad, shot surrounded by buffering (SuperGrex, PSB, MIX47 or some other type of buffer) all behave differently. ROUND shot flies truer. Hardened shot flies truer. (I.E. Steel shot shoots tighter than lead shot, if chokes are equal; because it stays round.) Chokes, forcing cones and bore size all contribute to good or poor patterning. Velocity plays a small factor as well. 

[Zeke 5,504]

15 hours ago, Parker said:

So true. That's because without the merits of a wad, like the FliteControl, those soft lead pellets deform and those with a flattened side from scrubbing along the barrel as they exit or mash into each other now become fliers and gravitate toward to edge of the pattern. (ALL sizes of lead shot show this attribute when fired, even #9's!) Lead shot, hardened lead shot, copper-plated shot, nickeled shot, shot in a wad, shot without a wad, shot surrounded by buffering (SuperGrex, PSB, MIX47 or some other type of buffer) all behave differently. ROUND shot flies truer. Hardened shot flies truer. (I.E. Steel shot shoots tighter than lead shot, if chokes are equal; because it stays round.) Chokes, forcing cones and bore size all contribute to good or poor patterning. Velocity plays a small factor as well. 

If it’s  1”/yard 00, what’s the rule of thumb for #8 or #9 given equal chokes?

[Scorpio64 5,153]

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

If it’s  1”/yard 00, what’s the rule of thumb for #8 or #9 given equal chokes?

There is one, and only one way to determine how your shotgun will pattern at a given distance with a particular load and choke combo.  Pattern it. 

Quote

 

If we don't take the time to pattern our shotguns, we are shooting (and hunting) essentially blind, a very tough hoe to row. Various wad makers claim "better" patterns, choke-sellers do the same, manufacturers of back-bored shotguns (really, just over-sized barrels for the most part) brag about it, and the benefits of lengthening forcing cones and the like tout "better" patterns as well.

All have some potential, of course, but none alone is likely to change your world. What counts is pattern quality, and if the pattern does not improve with an ammo change, choke change, or other modifications, then it just doesn't. All too often we can find ourselves believing in a choke tube, wad, or forcing cone rather than patterning results.

Patterns break clays and bag birds, not choke tube designations or forcing cones. So, it just makes good sense to learn what pattern we are throwing with specific loads in our own specific guns.

 

Full article here --> http://www.chuckhawks.com/why_pattern.htm

 

[Parker 213]

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

If it’s  1”/yard 00, what’s the rule of thumb for #8 or #9 given equal chokes?

1"/yard for ALL lead shot is the general rule of thumb. Choke designations began with the British:

• 1/4 choke or Improved Cylinder 0.010" of constriction
• 1/2 choke 0.020" of constriction
• 3/4 choke 0.30" of constriction
• Full Choke 0.40" of constriction

It was determined more than a century ago that a good shot pattern and choke would be one that delivers 100% of the shot into a 40" circle at 40 yards. Game doubles had both their barrels regulated to hit dead-on POA at 40 yards to achieve this, so that 100% of the pattern would be on target. American chokes today are designated as follows and should adhere to this standard:

• Full choke will produce a 40 inch 100% pattern @ 40 yards.
• Modified choke will produce a 40 inch 100% pattern @ 35 yards.
• Improved cylinder choke will produce a 40 inch 100% pattern @ 30 yards.
• Cylinder bore will produce a 40 inch 100% pattern @ 25 yards.

For a pattern to be effective, from #9 shot through 00 buck and the target intended (clay disc, small or big game,) it was determined that each choke designation deliver 70% of its shot within a 30" circle. Anything outside the circle is a flier, while the pattern density inside the circle ensures that a small clay target or a fleeing rabbit wouldn't be able to slip through the pattern. Multiple hits are preferred to be effective, so density without patchiness is preferred. (The infamous "blown pattern" is one not tolerated.) 

[Zeke 5,504]

@High Exposure and @GRIZ what distance  would pattern 00 buck at for CQB? 15-20’?

@Scorpio64 and @Parker what distance would you pattern for clays?

[Scorpio64 5,153]

6 minutes ago, Zeke said:

what distance would you pattern for clays?

35 yards.

[High Exposure 5,664]

We pattern our shotguns at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards for social purposes.

We qualify at 10 and 20 yards for buckshot and 20 and 50 yards for slugs.

[High Exposure 5,664]

22 hours ago, PK90 said:

The larger the spread the better, for home defense.

I disagree Paul. I want to know where every pellet is going, and I want as many of those pellets to hit my point of aim as possible. Spread may increase my chances of scoring a hit. It also increases my chances or scoring a miss or a peripheral hit that isn’t as useful.