Does eliminating this iconic symbol achieve anything? (or What's this world coming to?)

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

I read the article. Forgive me if I'm a little scattered in my response, I haven't had enough coffee yet.

 

The author seems to be writing from the perspective of how the flag is viewed today. Fair enough. However, that's not the full story.

 

Originally, the Confederate flag was a symbol of the Confederate States of America, who succeeded from the union and formed their own country. Why? Many reasons. Trade, tariffs, taxation, states rights were all at the root of it. Was 'white supremacy'? Maybe, who can truly know what is in a mans heart or head? However, I don't think the main objection to slavery by the North was due to human rights, or racial injustice. If I recall correctly it was primarily due to economics. The larger southern plantations simply produced raw materials much cheaper than could be produced in the North, and the North couldn't compete (even with their OWN slave labor). The North used their influence to pressure the Federal govt to levy tariffs and taxes to make the North more competitive.

Again, if I recall correctly. It's been 30 years and I've slept since then.

 

We cannot 'bleach' facts out of history only because they are unpleasant, or they don't fit our beliefs, or the narritive of the day.

 

For example, Lincoln is looked upon as 'The Great Emancipator'. However, he didn't really care much about slavery or racial issues of the time. He freed the slaves as a way to 'preserve the Union', as evidenced by his writings to Horace Greely, the editor of the New York Tribune in 1862:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it.”

 

Another fact that seems to be bleached out by the media these days is which political party freed the slaves. It was actually the Rebublican congress (1862?) that voted to do so. I believe Senator Trumball wrote the legislation. Why do Democrats get the credit for this? They actually universally OPPOSED freeing slaves!!!!

 

While we are in the subject, Senator Trumballs legislation declared only the slaves from the Confederate 'rebel' states were to be freed, more as punishment for the CSA's succession from the union than anything else. It was later that it was expanded to ALL slaves, with unanimous Democrat opposition.

 

That fact seems to be glossed over as well.

 

...If I remember my American History correctly. I may see if I can dig up an old paper I wrote on the subject about 30 years ago and further jog my memory.

[AVB-AMG 530]

Displaced Texan:

Thank you for your articulate and thoughtful response. FYI - Here is a link to a previous posting I made yesterday in the other thread on this topic that also focuses on those elements:

 

http://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/77261-Confederate-Battle-Flag-Issue--It-is-about-time%2E%2E%2E%2E/page__view__findpost__p__979978

[Sota 1,191]

Coming from someone who spent a 4 year rotation in Alabama as a kid, I can tell you the description "The War of Northern Aggression" is an accurate summation of the causes for the northern-termed Civil War. Having now suffered through the propigandist machines of both territories I can see all 3 sides to the story, I've concluded neither side can claim the absolute moral high ground and that both had faults. However the industrial North's primary motivation was purely control over the aggricultural South. It wasn't about slavery as so many up here believe. Slavery (in the form as it was in the 1860s) was already on its way out as plantation owners were shifting from the more expensive ownership model to the more cost effective employment model. In my estimation by the early 1900s slavery would have been "abolished" purely on economic terms.

 

This whole thing with the flag is nothing more than more 1984ish bullshit; the revisionist history they want to apply as well is beyond profoundly disturbing. It's causing me re-evaluate my estimated timeline for the next Civil War in this country.

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

AVG, for some reason my phone shows your above referenced link as 'not found'. I'd love to read your perspective, can you point me to the post, please?

 

Sota, agreed. The economic model of large plantations and slavery was on its way out. It was just a matter of time.

 

You correctly sumize that neither the North or the South were on moral high ground on the issue of slavery. It is, like most things in ANY society, a factor of economics.

 

I believe these days the talk of 'banning' words or symbols is an extremely slippery slope that we should tread carefully upon. Orwellian, if you ask me.

 

One of my favorite sayings (in fact, my sig line) is by Aldous Huxley, "Facts dont cease to exist, simply because they are ignored". I believe our society should heed his words, as they are VERY applicable in today's America.

[CMJeepster 2,777]

In case anyone wants to know what Cooter thinks:  https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/dukes-actor-now-store-owner-defends-confederate-flag-150227750.html

[Redlines 202]

I foresee ignorant people attacking people wearing or displaying a confederate flag because the media told them it means pro-slavery.

Real smart attack a crazy redneck that will go well.

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

Crazy redneck???? Wow....that's just hurtful.....

[jackandjill 683]

BTW, now that the flag discussion is coming to an end (with everyone piled on it), carefully placed "news", "opinions" articles started to come out on "Gun" debate and reasonable restrictions discussion. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

http://www.civilwarcauses.org/reasons.htm

 

Here are 4 states formal declarations of Succession..

They outline pretty well their reasons.

 

Georgia:

"The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization."

[CMJeepster 2,777]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/04/17/cbs2-exclusive-some-take-offense-to-cops-general-lee-car-with-confederate-flag/

 

CBS2 Exclusive: Some Take Offense To Cop’s ‘General Lee’ Car With Confederate Flag

 

 

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) — A car parked at an NYPD precinct stationhouse is prominently decorated with a Confederate battle flag on the roof, and the officer who owns the car has been told to park it elsewhere.

 

As CBS2’s Tony Aiello reported exclusively Friday, the car was spotted at the 34th Precinct

stationhouse, at 4295 Broadway in Washington Heights. It was parked inside the lot authorized for police officers.

 

A CBS2 viewer sent in the photos of the Dodge Charger with the Confederate flag on the roof, and reported that an officer is the owner.

 

“I would feel uncomfortable driving that,” said Michael Wynn of Washington Heights. “If I was a cop, I would feel very uncomfortable.”

 

“It doesn’t bother me either way, it really doesn’t,” a woman said.

 

But it does indeed bother some people.

 

“It’s a symbol of racism, really if you think about it,” a man said.

 

Fans of “The Dukes of Hazzard” will immediately recognize the car as “The General Lee,” a 1969 Dodge Charger known driven by cousins Bo and Luke Duke in the series – and known for its long jumps, chases, and horn that plays the first bars of “Dixie.”

 

But “The Dukes of Hazzard” was last seen on CBS in February 1985, and attitudes about the Confederate flag have changed in the 30 years since.

 

Last year, a Long Island Catholic school suspended two students for bringing a Confederate flag to school. Also, NASCAR will not allow “The General Lee” in pre-race ceremonies.

 

And a Texas ban on Confederate flag specialty plates has gone all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

 

Civil rights attorney Nadine Strossen said displaying the flag is clearly protected by the First Amendment.

 

“Government must remain neutral to any viewpoint or idea, and allow the expression of ideas — even if the vast majority of the community considers the idea dangerous, offensive, wrong, and evil,” said Strossen, of New York Law School.

 

A police source described the cop who owns that replica of “The General Lee” as a “big-time ‘Dukes of Hazzard’ fan,” and said he has only driven it to the precinct on a couple of occasions.

 

A spokesman said, “due to the fact that its presence at the NYPD facility may be considered offensive and/or inappropriate, the registered owner is being instructed that the car should not be parked on NYPD property.”

 

A viewer called and tipped off CBS2 to this story. If you have something you’d like CBS2 to investigate, call our tipline at (855) TWO-TIPS.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Civil rights attorney Nadine Strossen said displaying the flag is clearly protected by the First Amendment.

 

Agreed 100%

[Shawnmoore81 623]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/confederate-flag-furor/u-s-national-park-service-rids-confederate-flag-merchandise-n381741

 

 

[CMJeepster 2,777]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/confederate-flag-furor/u-s-national-park-service-rids-confederate-flag-merchandise-n381741

"...Fort Sunter..."

 

Nice spelling error.  Idiots.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2015/06/25/apple-bans-civil-war-games-from-app-store-over-confederate-flag/

[Malsua 1,422]

I demand that Ken Burn's "The Civil War" be removed from shelves!  It glorifies the slavery flag!

[CMJeepster 2,777]

I demand that Ken Burn's "The Civil War" be removed from shelves!  It glorifies the slavery flag!

If this shit snowballs into MeTV yanking Hogan's Heros & M*A*S*H* off the air, I'm going to have a problem with you!  Ha, ha, ha!

[Redlines 202]

Crazy redneck???? Wow....that's just hurtful.....

Nope ment as a compliment .

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

Lol...I was gonna say, I ain't crazy, my momma had me tested!

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I just got off the phone with rothco. I placed an order with them specifically to order these flags. My order came today. No flags. I ordered 25 of em. They tell me in a sensitive issue blah blah. They have some coming in on July 8th so I ordered them

[302w 83]

I just got off the phone with rothco. I placed an order with them specifically to order these flags. My order came today. No flags. I ordered 25 of em. They tell me in a sensitive issue blah blah. They have some coming in on July 8th so I ordered them

What are you doing with 25 Confederate flags? Making a Confederate sailboat?

[AVB-AMG 530]

What are you doing with 25 Confederate flags? Making a Confederate sailboat?

 

302W:

Very funny...... But it has already been done...

Back in 2012, racing yacht designer and technical director of Team Korea, Mr. Brett Bakewell-White designed and commissioned the 36-foot racing yacht called the Bakewell-White 36 General Lee sailing in Australia with this controversial paint job on its hull:

 

 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

What are you doing with 25 Confederate flags? Making a Confederate sailboat?

Hot commodity. You ban em I'll buy em. I'll sell em online

[302w 83]

Hot commodity. You ban em I'll buy em. I'll sell em online

 

I would think that by the time you get them the fad will be over.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Even if it's over. I always have a few flags laying around.

[DeerSlayer 241]

My take on the issue here goes like this:

The argument is wether or not the flag belongs on a pole in front of the SC statehouse. This flag being there is actually protected by a law written just for this very day they knew would come. When they conceded to remove it from the top the building and to the pole a few years back. In actuality no one person has the athority to remove the flag. The legislature must decide according to law.

 

I'm of the opinion that the piece of cloth in question, capable of harm to no man. Should only be taken down, if the people of SC say so. It's their state house not any one persons state house. It belongs to the people. They should decide! Put it on the ballot and allow them to make that decision. It's still a democracy last time I checked? This is the only fair way to handle this issue imo. If it means that much to someone they should get their ass to the poles and make their opinion known.

 

[Johnny 0]

Perfect time for a referendum. If the people vote to take it down take it down. If they vote to keep it leave it there. I am so tired of people caving to the chronically offended.

[Newtonian 453]

What's striking is how quickly and deeply this insanity has spread. First came the shooting, then like a week later suddenly everybody was talking about the danged flag.

 

A cop got fired for posting a photo of him wearing CF undies: http://cbsloc.al/1NlG0zm

 

Director of the National Cathedral looking to remove two stained glass depictions of the flag: http://yhoo.it/1NlFWj1

 

This has all the makings of one of those super-taboos like "nigger." 

[CMJeepster 2,777]

Has the event made ammo jump off the shelves or prices increase?  I haven't looked around lately.

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

I haven't seen any increase of ammo prices or lack of availability.

[Kevin125 4,772]

So we know there are people out there who think the American flag is a racist, oppressive symbol.  I'm waiting for some chapter of the ACLU or some other cave dweller to start making noise about how it should be banned.

 

This is all part of killing the identity of America.

 

Change folks...... Change........