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AlDente67

I have an odd question

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I know this area is not for gun-related topics, but I was wondering...

 

Let's say ammo becomes important for bartering some day.  If I stock up on ammo in both .223 and 5.56 depending on whether a good deal pops up, it doesn't really matter all that much at the moment in terms of what I use it for today.

 

But since every AR that can shoot 5.56 can also shoot .223, but not vice versa for at least some of them, would it make more sense to keep that in mind for future trade?

 

Let's say I offer a box of 5.56 in trade for a bag of canned goods.  The other party happens to own an AR chambered in .223, and he (or she) is afraid the barrel might explode (they read that somewhere on the internets).  The utility of the ammo is thus lower in his (her) eyes since it can only be used for barter in some other transaction, instead of either barter or hunting/SD.

So me, today, spending any extra money on 5.56 might limit the value of my stock if the need arises, so why bother?

 

Does that make sense?

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It does not make sense to me that you would ever barter ammo.  

 

Sooo .. Buddy.. Pal you are saying you have no ammo and you would trade me this gold coin here but then if I give you ammo, you now have a ammo for your gun and I have your gold coin which you might want back ..

 

Substitute gold coin for whatever. Actually gold coin might make more sense, because it means you are still using money, so you have commerce so maybe things aren't completely desperate. Barter though? Crap is pretty bad and handing a non-friend ammo for beans seems like a bad plan. 

 

Also, 223 guns won't really explode from 5.56 ammo, they may perform poorly, but the extra pressure is way under the proof loads for .223.

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It does not make sense to me that you would ever barter ammo.  

It does to me. I need several thousand rounds for self-defense. Beyond that any extra ammo is an excellent bartering item, for those who did not think ahead and have 50 rounds or none of what they need. (Assuming of course they have something I need. Maybe not, if they're bad planners.) I'm also thinking of scenarios where the ammo supply is simply cut off, as we saw (sort of) after Sandy Hook.

 

In the future, if I or my family find ourselves in an environment where we have actually expended several thousand rounds in a firefight(s), then we're probably dead.

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I have an odd answer.

 

Cash is King.

 

Bartering is for poor people, the desperate, and losers. In every single economic or societal disaster that the world has ever seen, money has always had the greatest value. Some currencies may lose all value, but money of value never does. Such as the most popular world currency (not including the crash zone currency of course) or precious metals.

 

Everybody should have plenty of ammo, for more reason than one. Not just for the end of the world. And everybody should have KNOWLEDGE and supplies to live for a long time without depending on others. But when it comes to getting what you want from others, you aren't going to get a Canadian ship captain or smuggler to arrange transport for your family with a few buckets of beans and you will never pay your taxes with cases of ammo.

 

I learned a lot of things from a guy that posted his experiences during the Balkans wars several years ago. He said you could buy a night with a woman for a can of stew. I learned he didn't have a lot of wealthy people in his midst, and I learned I'd rather pay a bribe.

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My usual wet blanket answer to posts like this: Interesting concept but if we ever reach that point, in this country, it will barely matter what you're bartering. After two weeks there won't be any deer left; people will be eating people. After a while unless you know the person you're trading with they're as likely to kill you and take what they want as they are to give you their gold coin.

 

You won't be able to get anywhere because the roads will be clogged with burning cars and the forests will be too dangerous, day or night. You'll be pretty much limited to your neighborhood, and nobody but nobody will tell you what they have because they'll know it could be years, or never, before Shop Rite opens again. Once you give or trade away that bag of almonds or that ammo it's gone. 

 

I have no worries about anyone from Camden getting up here in one piece, but we'll have local criminal bands forming who will attack any home that appears to be prospering and generally rule this area. The ammo may be useful against them unless their numbers are too great. The cities and 'burbs I don't even want to think about. 

 

In short if your survival depends on bartering rifle ammo you better start praying.

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You make a good point Newtonian, however they are REAL examples of bartering in history, some examples in not-so-long-ago history.  Yes it wasnt the USA, but the bartering certainly did happen.  From what I remember most of what was bartered was alcohol, toilet paper, and burnable wood..

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I have an odd answer.

 

Cash is King.

 

Bartering is for poor people, the desperate, and losers. In every single economic or societal disaster that the world has ever seen, money has always had the greatest value. Some currencies may lose all value, but money of value never does. Such as the most popular world currency (not including the crash zone currency of course) or precious metals.

 

Everybody should have plenty of ammo, for more reason than one. Not just for the end of the world. And everybody should have KNOWLEDGE and supplies to live for a long time without depending on others. But when it comes to getting what you want from others, you aren't going to get a Canadian ship captain or smuggler to arrange transport for your family with a few buckets of beans and you will never pay your taxes with cases of ammo.

 

I learned a lot of things from a guy that posted his experiences during the Balkans wars several years ago. He said you could buy a night with a woman for a can of stew. I learned he didn't have a lot of wealthy people in his midst, and I learned I'd rather pay a bribe.

 

So if the dollar became worthless, what would you use?  Zloty?

 

Anyway, I plan to dive down to the bottom and pull up some earth, then trade that for an Orange tree and some fresh water.

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The problem with barter is establishing relative value. That's why God created money in 35,000 BC. It's 20x as tough to do in a SHTF situation. 

 

I actually do enjoy thinking about and discussing this topic. I'll never forget the comment of the late Barry from Moss Pawn and Gun regarding the Mosin Nagant as a "sirr-vaaah-vall" weapon: "You could baah a case ferr $1000 and arm twenny men."

 

I fantasize about me and sonny boy picking off zombies from the attic, or my neighborhood repelling an invasion of much more heavily armed Red Chinese. Someone -- my virulently anti-gun neighbor perhaps? -- sends a round of 7.62x54r incendiary into the gas tank of a full personnel vehicle just as it's turning out of our neighborhood. Most of the occupants are killed instantly but one emerges, his clothes aflame: "Give you gold coin and two egg roll for fire extinguisher!"

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Bartering is still very much alive. I do it more as favors to friends, But if we have something each of us wants? My wife would like a sewing machine a guy at work has. It is an old classic. He got it for nothing, it is worth $600, she offered him money, he wanted $250, he said no, he wanted her to do some embroidery work for his wedding.  I have another friend that has a farm and barters all the time.

IN SHTF, which can be a total collapse or just the country going down the hopper a little more, Barter will be more popular than ever. 

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Pretty much what Newtonian said, there won't be many pleasant exchanges between people in that world. And yeah to survive, people will be eating people. Defending a fort is difficult to do. So unless your inside your bunker at an undisclosed location, or your staying on the move and trying very hard not to be seen by others you won't have to worry about barter. If you have something someone else wants, it's basically going to come down to who got the drop on who.

 

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Civility will go out the window once people start getting hungry. I think back quite a few years on a hot summer day during a blackout when everyone was outside in the shade (because it was slightly more tolerable than being inside), and one person had a generator(before it was commonplace), as we could hear his ac unit running. People joked about just showing up and using his power. In a true SHTF scenario I would imagine that would occur.

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So if the dollar became worthless, what would you use? Zloty?

 

Anyway, I plan to dive down to the bottom and pull up some earth, then trade that for an Orange tree and some fresh water.

Gold? Silver? Yen? Deutsche Marks?

 

Was that a serious question? Because, if so, it is disconcerting.

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Gold? Silver? Yen? Deutsche Marks?

 

Was that a serious question? Because, if so, it is disconcerting.

Firstly, if a fiat paper like the dollar is suddenly (or rather quickly) rendered worthless, the same will be true of any other paper.  But for the sake of discussion, where are you going to come up with a bag full of Yen?

 

Now as to metals, as Newtonian said, there would need to be an established relative value.  That can't possibly happen until there are some pockets of stability to come to at least a rough agreement.  How much bread is a one ounce gold coin worth?  How would you make change?

 

And you should know that Marks were decommissioned over 13 years ago, but nevermind.

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Problem is barter developed from a survival society to a tribal/village society. Going from the city society to a survival/barter will be difficult if not impossible for many. Imagine a Camden family trying to barter with some live in the woods type? I have a full freezer of deer and a pantry... I still would not trade for anything he had.  Before we go to a barter system, we will devolve to a gang/feudal system before barter? Or just a wholey depressed society ? worse than the early 1930's?

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We're assuming the values for items today would hold in a SHTF scenario. Today I might barter something for which I paid $100 for something else worth $100. I know what I paid and what that other item is worth because I can look it up online. 

 

What if there's no way to look something up? How do you know whether it's a $15 flashlight or a $50 flashlight? 

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I am in my mid sixties and still waiting for the SHTF. It is a waste of time to worry about things getting so bad that you will need to barter ammo. If things reach that point, I will only need one bullet because I would not want to live in a world like that.  YMMV :roulette:

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I am in my mid sixties and still waiting for the SHTF. It is a waste of time to worry about things getting so bad that you will need to barter ammo. If things reach that point, I will only need one bullet because I would not want to live in a world like that.  YMMV :roulette:

Hey Old Dog, remember Howard Ruff and Hal Lindsey?

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I am in my mid sixties and still waiting for the SHTF. It is a waste of time to worry about things getting so bad that you will need to barter ammo. If things reach that point, I will only need one bullet because I would not want to live in a world like that.  YMMV :roulette:

Very smart man.

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I am in my mid sixties and still waiting for the SHTF. It is a waste of time to worry about things getting so bad that you will need to barter ammo. If things reach that point, I will only need one bullet because I would not want to live in a world like that.  YMMV :roulette:

Umm, can I have your canned soup then?

 

Awkward, I know...

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