Possible suicide at RTSP

[raz-0 1,259]

I appreciate all of the comments and suggestions as it relates to this topic and I agree with the majority of you especially as it relates to the FID card being the linchpin to preventing suicides. The truth is that any well motivated individual with a loaded firearm, that is willing to do harm to himself, will not and can not be stopped. That said, and in keeping with playing the ODDS on what the National average is for suicidal individuals at gun ranges, it is RTSP's intention to implement the following procedure:

 

• No lone, first time, shooters are allowed to rent firearms, regardless of whether or not they have an FID card or not. Exception: Active and Retired LEO with a State carrying card.
• If a person comes in with a valid permit to purchase (P2P) a handgun and wants to “test drive” a rental, we have created a new product "P2P Test Drive” that includes 30 minutes of range time, up to two rental firearms and an RSO in the port the entire time.
• All shooters must be at least 21 years old to RENT a handgun or be accompanied by someone, in the same port, who is at least 21 years of age.
• Individuals who are at least 18 years of age, but under 21 years of age can only rent rifles if they are accompanied, in the same port, by someone who is 21 or older.

I agree that this is a bandaid on a hemorrhage, but we as a company would be remiss if we did nothing. Rentals are a large part of the revenue of the company and more importantly, a convenience to customers that are looking for new firearms. Lest we forget that there is no real solution to the mental health crisis that is abound in this Country, we just have to do all WE can do to keep ourselves and our customers safe and secure.

What about rentals to people who already brought a gun with them to shoot. I know when I used to frequent a range with rentals, I'd usually indulge in trying out something I didn't already own while there to shoot. Or am I just parsing the first time shooters thing wrong as first time at your range?

[Redlines 202]

"No lone, first time, shooters are allowed to rent firearms, regardless of whether or not they have an FID card or not. Exception: Active and Retired LEO with a State carrying card."

 

because they never commit suicide right? heres a clip from "The Police Chief" publication

" Based on their analysis of 30 published studies plus additional data, Aamodt and Stalnacker determined a rate of 18.1 LEO suicides per 100,000 officers.⁵ The most current data show a U.S. population suicide rate of 12/100,000;⁶ therefore, the LEO suicide rate is obviously not two to three times that of the general population."

 

studies show le rate is higher than non le...not the 2-3 times some like to throw out there yet still higher.....so just like nj firearms laws this thought process doesn't make sense either....cant see where people could ever get "them vs us/double standards" ideas...lol

 

the rule changes ​don't affect me...as I'm not a member or customer ...but its the principle that i can't understand of how this scramble is any different than the ones after any other shootings where politicians and talking heads all run about pushing for new "requirements" ...when its that scenario people realize it will do nothing to address the actual root...or prevent future occurrences......yet in this case a large percentage are happy for new restrictions as the " l was always nervous/scared/enter other term about others around them".....and some want further "sensible restrictions"

Yep always a different set of rules for cops, as we all know they are treated better then the lowly citizen.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

* No lone, first time, shooters are allowed to rent firearms, regardless of whether or not they have an FID card or not. Exception: Active and Retired LEO with a State carrying card.

 

As stated in an earlier post, I respect your right to run your business as you see fit. That said, had you had these policies in effect when I was just starting out with firearms (and not owning any weapons for myself),  it is highly unlikely that I would have become a customer of yours as I'd not be able to meet those policies, given my own situation.  Are you willing to accept the potential loss of new business from this policy? How do you define "first time" and what would advance a person beyond their "first time" such that they could rent from you?

 

 

* Individuals who are at least 18 years of age, but under 21 years of age can only rent rifles if they are accompanied, in the same port, by someone who is 21 or older.

 

Individuals who are at least 18 are legal adults, and are allowed to "own" their own long guns, provided they meet all the state eligibility requirements (FID, no criminal / mental background, etc.).  I'd think this particular policy might pose a legal liability risk for you (i.e. discrimination lawsuit), should you choose to enforce it.   I'd run it by your legal team. 

 

[Dan 177]

I wonder if the "no lone, first time shooters" covers anyone who brings their own HG to pop off some rounds and gets a gold star sticker that they are now permitted to rent stuff moving forward. I would think this demonstrates that the person has access to a personal firearm and wouldn't need to rent one for purposes other then punching holes in paper.

[RTSP1 67]

"No lone, first time, shooters are allowed to rent firearms, regardless of whether or not they have an FID card or not. Exception: Active and Retired LEO with a State carrying card." 

 

because they never commit suicide right?  heres a clip from "The Police Chief" publication

 

" Based on their analysis of 30 published studies plus additional data, Aamodt and Stalnacker determined a rate of 18.1 LEO suicides per 100,000 officers.⁵ The most current data show a U.S. population suicide rate of 12/100,000;⁶ therefore, the LEO suicide rate is obviously not two to three times that of the general population." 

 

 

studies show le rate is higher than non le...not the 2-3 times some like to throw out there yet still higher.....so just like nj firearms laws this thought process doesn't make sense either....cant see where people could ever get "them vs us/double standards" ideas...lol

 

the rule changes ​don't affect me...as I'm not a member or customer ...but its the principle that i can't understand of how this scramble is any different than the ones after any other shootings where politicians and talking heads all run about pushing for new "requirements" ...when its that scenario people realize it will do nothing to address the actual root...or prevent future occurrences......yet in this case a large percentage are happy for new restrictions as the " l was always nervous/scared/enter other term about others around them".....and some want further "sensible restrictions"

 

Really? Ugh!  You guys get under my skin some times.  Yes, LEO's kill themselves at a high rate! When was the last time one rented a friggen gun at a range to do it? 

 

These are the rules, if you all want to Monday morning quarterback it with what-if's, have at.  If you do not like the rules? don't come! If you want to change the rules.... Take the biggest risk in the past 30 years in NJ, retire early from a guaranteed pensioned job, find a few million dollars laying around, put every thing you have and own on hock and open your own flippen place! Till that time comes, you don't deserve to be flip.

 

Lest we forget, that I (Peter) have made many policy changes at RTSP based on YOU (Forum Members) suggestions and comments.  I (Peter) have had YOU (Forum Members) at my range as personal guests and treated all of you like family.  To beat us (RTSP) up on this topic is a slap in the face of what I have tried to forge with the guys and girls of this group.  I am closing my portion of this topic and will say if anyone has any other comments or CONSTRUCTIVE critiques you know where to find me and my number is below.

[Howard 538]

As stated in an earlier post, I respect your right to run your business as you see fit. That said, had you had these policies in effect when I was just starting out with firearms (and not owning any weapons for myself),  it is highly unlikely that I would have become a customer of yours as I'd not be able to meet those policies, given my own situation.  Are you willing to accept the potential loss of new business from this policy? How do you define "first time" and what would advance a person beyond their "first time" such that they could rent from you?

 

 

 

I understand where you are coming from on that, I too got my start by going there by myself before I owned any guns or had an FID and rented a gun.  I am not sure what I would have done had I had to pay for a babysitter, maybe I never would have gotten hooked on this expensive habit.  BUT having said that, I have since seen so much dangerous stuff going on with inexperienced shooters that I would actually like to see this policy be tighter.  I would love to see some more scrutiny of all shooters that have never been to the facility, even if they come with someone else.  I have seen some very dangerous things done by new shooters with their experienced friends.  Perhaps it would be possible to limit new shooters to a couple of adjacent ports and have an RSO dedicated to monitoring those few ports.  It is totally impossible for one RSO to carefully monitor actions going on simultaneously in 12 ports.  But then again, even if an RSO is in a port with you things can happen so quickly that they would never be able to stop many of them.  I guess there is no perfect answer.

[HBecwithFn7 296]

I understand where you are coming from on that, I too got my start by going there by myself before I owned any guns or had an FID and rented a gun.  I am not sure what I would have done had I had to pay for a babysitter, maybe I never would have gotten hooked on this expensive habit.  BUT having said that, I have since seen so much dangerous stuff going on with inexperienced shooters that I would actually like to see this policy be tighter.  I would love to see some more scrutiny of all shooters that have never been to the facility, even if they come with someone else.  I have seen some very dangerous things done by new shooters with their experienced friends.  Perhaps it would be possible to limit new shooters to a couple of adjacent ports and have an RSO dedicated to monitoring those few ports.  It is totally impossible for one RSO to carefully monitor actions going on simultaneously in 12 ports.  But then again, even if an RSO is in a port with you things can happen so quickly that they would never be able to stop many of them.  I guess there is no perfect answer.

 

I wouldn't have had any problems with "extra scrutiny" or an RSO in the port with me, or anything of that nature. At least, I'd be able to rent the firearm and attempt to qualify to rent "on my own" eventually. And, assuming I had purchased an an annual membership prior to implementing such a policy, I'd still be able to shoot, and to use it (the membership).

[Krdshrk 3,877]

How do the ranges in like, Las Vegas do it?  I think you have a dedicated RO with you if you're renting at all times.

 

Granted - RTSP may not be able to do that, but It would be a good thing.

 

Honestly - I'm ok with the policies as none of them affect me.  It's for RTSP's protection more than anyone else.  With gun ranges, it seems like it's more of a "When" not "if" that someone will shoot themselves..

[PK90 3,570]

HERE are the rules of a busy indoor range in AZ.

 

NOTE: Non-member shooters without their own firearms must have a buddy with them in order to rent from Shooter's World.

[bhunted 887]

HERE are the rules of a busy indoor range in AZ.

 

NOTE: Non-member shooters without their own firearms must have a buddy with them in order to rent from Shooter's World.

This is also how GFH does it.....

 

 

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[302w 83]

SSunset Hill has an RO standing on top of you regardless of experience.

 

It's a shame this happened at a decent range.

[AVB-AMG 530]

I just saw this thread and wanted to express my shock and sadness regarding the news of this most unfortunate event.

 

As a member of RTSP, along with my wife, we have the highest regard towards everyone at RTSP, from the ownership partners, management and staff. They all have been most helpful and accommodating to us in our continued firearm lessons, range time practice and multiple firearm purchases.

 

We will certainly abide by whatever additional rules and regulations they institute to attempt to avoid a repeat or similar incident in the future. While some may find these new rules inconvenient it is their business to run as they see fit, abiding by ever more intrusive insurance requirements. I for one have been surprised and a bit concerned at seeing youngsters under the age of 18 renting and shooting firearms at other ranges.

 

As has been previously stated, suicide will never go away and it is a shame that a disturbed individual chooses to attempt or succeed in this sad act in a public forum surrounded by many other innocent people, whether it is a gun range or other public and populated venue.

 

Everyone at RTSP has our sincere condolences and best wishes on dealing with the aftermath of this....

 

AVB-AMG

 

 

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[Carcano 14]

First thing Monday morning the FAMILY is going to contact a lawyer to sue RTSP.

 

Money heals all wounds.

 

The naysayers haven't seen it first hand. Someone dies and the first thing family members do is open the yellow pages and start calling lawyers/retaining counsel anticipating a payout. Happens all the time.

[Carcano 14]

How do the ranges in like, Las Vegas do it?  I think you have a dedicated RO with you if you're renting at all times.

 

Granted - RTSP may not be able to do that, but It would be a good thing.

 

Honestly - I'm ok with the policies as none of them affect me.  It's for RTSP's protection more than anyone else.  With gun ranges, it seems like it's more of a "When" not "if" that someone will shoot themselves..

 

No amount of restrictions would have prevented this, people have walked into gun stores and brought a round with them, chambered it and pulled the trigger in front of everyone.

 

Even if they had someone watching this guy he still could have killed himself.

 

I have no kind words for the man, what he did could have easily traumatized bystanders. Want to kill yourself? go off into the woods and pull the trigger no need to traumatize innocent people!

[jeff47 30]

IIRC one of the range owners (I won't call him out as I know he was being sued by the family though I believe that's over) had a cop blow his brains out all over him during a lesson. Guy told him he was a school teacher that always wanted to shoot when in reality he was a cop who had been delegated to the rubber gun squad because of some mental health issues. So I'm sure the family will sue RTSP as well sadly.

 

On a related note I do think the kid was so wrapped up in his own issues he didn't give a shit about anyone else or how his actions would affect others. I still have trouble forgiving my brother in law who did something similar. Absolutely destroyed the family.

[dobie 0]

As someone who has been to RTSP (and expects to go again) I have no problem with the new rules. I think they strike the right balance.

[diablo2424 1]

I am new to the hobby and have read through this thread as well.  Having family members who have committed suicide, as recently as July of this year, firstly I want to send my condolences to the family, and may the guy RIP.  No matter what the situation/who you are, it's sad to see someone get to that level where that's the way they see out of it all.  I also want to say I feel bad for the people who saw it happen, if you're going to do it, don't take others down with you (even if it's not harming them physically it very well can be emotionally).

 

As for the range, I feel bad for the workers who were there and the ones who have to go there everyday to do their job knowing such a thing happened, and the owner's I hope no kind of lawsuit does get filed nor does it cost them anything if it does (which I wouldn't be shocked if so, people suck).  For that rule of no non-owner/first time renters, GSSC also has this rule and I have no problem with it.  Even me being someone who doesn't (yet) own a gun, wants to try some and get into the sport, but am not allowed to go rent a gun alone.  Is it annoying?  Yes, definitely, as there have been a few times where I wanted to go try the guns I'm interested in and have read/watched many youtube reviews of prior to spending my hard earned money to buy them.  However, I can understand and respect their policy of me not being allowed to go alone.  And honestly, with how nice and helpful the staff was the one time I did go in there to talk to them/browse, I have no problem waiting until I can get a friend/purchase my first firearm to go shooting there.  So good for you RTSP for adopting the policy to make your range and everyone who goes there to enjoy the SPORT of shooting holes in PAPER, I can respect that and I would come to your shop if I lived closer, lol.