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warrantless car searches

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^^^^^And if you do get pulled-over for ANY reason, just be cordial.  99.999% of the BS we see in social media comes into play when ATTITUDE is given by the motorist.

 

When I was a Kid I did some stupid shit (I'll admit it) and would get pulled-over.  If it was at night, I would turn-on the overhead light and keep both hands on the steering wheel.  I would ask permission to find my documents.  Often these respectful actions lead to a tongue-lashing and warning instead of a ticket.  At the very least, I'd get cut a break for a slower speeding ticket and half the points I deserved.  Fast-forward to present-day and I learned I needed trifocals (glasses) more than a decade ago when I blew-by a North Brunswick Cop hiding under the Rt. 130 overpass, doing 75 in what I thought was a 60mph zone (which was actually a 50mph zone).  He asked if I knew how fast I was going and I looked him in the eyes and told him the entire dash board is fuzzy and I have an Eye Doctor's appointment the next day (which was true).  I couldn't read the speedometer any more and finally caved-in to accept the fact I was getting "older" and made the appointment.  I also said I was all alone on the road and didn't have other vehicles near me to help gauge my speed.  He leans into the car window and hands me my docs back and says "SLOW-DOWN AND MAKE SURE YOU MAKE THAT APPOINTMENT".....   And for those Conspiracy Theorists out there in NJGF Land, as my friends are quite aware, I have my car covered in stickers with guns on them:  NRA Life Member, USPSA, IDPA, BSA "Eagle Scout", Wounded Warriors, NJ State Federation of Sportsmens Clubs, etc., etc.  Somehow the idea of a search never entered the Cop's mind..........

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Man I guess there is going to be a shortage of tinfoil soon. I have been pulled over so many times its not even funny. I even had my licenses suspended when I was younger due to getting to many points on my licenses in the first 2 years of having my licenses (10 points) which landed me on drivers probation, then I got caught doing 75 in a 50 hence the suspension. when I was young I would mouth off to the cop and get searched quite frequently. Now I rarely get pulled over because I don't drive like a jackass (most of the time) but when I do I am polite, and respectful and I get treated the same way. I have been pulled over several times with guns in cases on my back seat in plain view and have never had an issue and have not been searched or asked to consent to a search in a little over 10 years.  

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So I read the article.  In my opinion, the Judges pulled same BS they pull with 2A - "We love Constitution, but in the interest of public safety, we will throw it out"... 

The case involving firearm (that we know NJ hates) definitely swayed decision. 

 

 

This is not about individual LEOs, this is about Govt and Citizens. Lets not forget that. 

 

In summary,

 

1. Its difficult to obtain warrants, so we make this warranless legal ?

2. Since when we throw 4th out because it presents impracticable burden on Govt ? 

3. Judges agree that there were increases in police-induced consent (abuse of power) and the fix is to go back to warrantless search ? 

     By their own admissions, we are going to now depend on same police PC who were otherwise pressuring motorists into content search ? 

 

Some funny way these Judges came to conclusions. You cannot make this stuff up. 

 

 

---------------------------

The state Attorney General's Office had argued the Pena-Flores decision was "unworkable" because of the difficulty of obtaining warrants on the fly and had led to "unintended negative consequences."

Justice Barry T. Albin, writing the majority decision, found the standard applied in the 2009 decision "does not provide greater liberty or security to New Jersey's citizens and has placed on law enforcement unrealistic and impracticable burdens."

The court also found the 2009 standard had the unintended consequence of causing an "exponential increase in police-induced consent automobile searches," suggesting that police officers may be pressuring motorists to volunteer for searches rather than take time to obtain a warrant.

"The heavy reliance on consent searches is of great concern given the historical abuses associated with such searches and the potential for future abuses," Albin wrote.

-----------------------------

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Bottom line... if a cop wants to search your car that badly, it will happen, and it will happen in a "legal" manner no matter what the circumstances. Its just a matter of how much time the cop wants to spend. If they can't find PC in the way of things like some crushed leaves or dust laying around that looks like "drug residue", the option to call in the 4th amendment silver bullet remains, aka the drug sniffing dog.

 

Yes, the drug sniffing canine instantly vaporizes your 4th amendment rights when used in an unscrupulous manner. Its a perfect system really. The handler subjectively interprets the dogs actions for a "hit", and on top of that can provide a subtle cue to the dog to trigger the hit response. Once that hit has been interpreted by the handler they have PC, you can tear up your 4th amendment rights and throw them in the fire.

 

Try defending against this in court... its pretty tough to question a dog on the stand. You'd have to spend 10's of thousands to hire expert witnesses to scrutinize over the dash cam vid to try to find incorrect usage of the dog.

 

I've seen vids where they let the dog jump up on the hood of the car scratching up the hood.  After they had their fun, you are now left with a scratched up car with a jacked up interior. If there is damage, good luck pursuing restitution for any damages.

 

Key take away is:

Your 4th amendment rights are but a mere inconvenience to cops when it comes to searching motor vehicles, perhaps with the exception of a mobile home that you are living in. Always respectfully assert your rights, no need to make it easy for them. After that, don't give them a reason to not like you, and most likely they will not go through the trouble.

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You are missing something very important. Is the person still arrested? Does the person still need to pay for a lawyer? If the judge decides, no crime was committed, Does the person get reimbursed for destroyed reputation? Reimbursed for legal expenses?

Great system, arrest them all let a judge figure it out. Hey better safe than sorry.

I should have added that a cop who makes bum arrests will soon change his ways or lose his job. If there is no PC there won't be an arrest.

 

What are you getting arrested for that destroys your reputation? Also your reputation as what?

 

The cop still needs PC to arrest you. You seem to have issues understanding that. The fact tbe judge is in the system is a safeguard. Maybe you would like the cop to arrest, find you guilty and sentence you?

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Will "the driver looked nervous" be considered probable cause?

 

 

It might be depending on other circumstances. PC is developed from the totality of the circumstances not a checklist.

 

 

Here....I'm sure the prosecutor will back the cop....

Uh...that is the prosecutor's job. The program prosecutor is there to get you found guilty, plea you down to a lesser offense, or...OMG...a check in the system...the case dismissed because the evidence doesn't support any violation.

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I should have added that a cop who makes bum arrests will soon change his ways or lose his job. If there is no PC there won't be an arrest.

 

What are you getting arrested for that destroys your reputation? Also your reputation as what?

 

The cop still needs PC to arrest you. You seem to have issues understanding that. The fact tbe judge is in the system is a safeguard. Maybe you would like the cop to arrest, find you guilty and sentence you?

Bingo! That is exactly what happens. Your life gets screwed, if you get arrested on a bogus charge. Who gets to explain that arrest to his boss. "No I was food shopping and spilled some oregano" So the arrest for drug possesion, shows in the police blotter. Who pays the lawyer fees? When eventually it is discovered it is just oregano, case is dismissed. But hey guys life is ruined because of PC and a hankering for Italian food.

 

Ask shaneen allen how her career is going.

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Bingo! That is exactly what happens. Your life gets screwed, if you get arrested on a bogus charge. Who gets to explain that arrest to his boss. "No I was food shopping and spilled some oregano" So the arrest for drug possesion, shows in the police blotter. Who pays the lawyer fees? When eventually it is discovered it is just oregano, case is dismissed. But hey guys life is ruined because of PC and a hankering for Italian food.

Ask shaneen allen how her career is going.

Oregano is oregano, Marijuana is not. Seems a lot of people are concerned about cops finding their dope. I guess you think most cops are too stupid to know the difference. Even if that were true the lab report would come back well before a trial and the case would be dismissed. Afraid of your boss finding out? Do you have a job that requires you to be drug free? In that case you value your buzz more than your job? You should have gotten a job in the construction trades. Your union will only suspend you from certain jobs not all. You fly airplanes or are a train engineer? I don't want you doing that and using drugs.

 

What Shaneen did only shows you don't have to meet a certain intelligence level to get a carry permit. Not saying it shouldn't have been okay but if you want to stay out of jail don't break the law.

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/06/okra-mistaken-for-marijuana-by-cops_n_5938868.html

 

good news, no one threw grenades into the house. 

 

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/02/eight_foods_cops_have_mistaken_for_drugs_jolly_ranchers_maple_syrup_tomatoes.html

 

some "duh why it took 10 hours to figure out it was tomato plant ?".,  some hilarious.

 

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/minn-man-jailed-3-months-vitamin-mistaken-drugs-article-1.2119653

 

And some serious jail time, apparently the  "lab tests"  on vitamins took time. 

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My god ...the stupidity is mind boggling. I want to argue but have finally smartened up. I will equate trying to educate certain individuals here with repeadly slamming my head into a wall and expecting a different outcome. These topics remind me of why i spend so much less time here

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I should have added that a cop who makes bum arrests will soon change his ways or lose his job. If there is no PC there won't be an arrest.

 

What are you getting arrested for that destroys your reputation? Also your reputation as what?

 

The cop still needs PC to arrest you. You seem to have issues understanding that. The fact tbe judge is in the system is a safeguard. Maybe you would like the cop to arrest, find you guilty and sentence you?

What about a person that has a TS or TS/SCI clearance that is arrested for any reason?  That person is subject to possible termination as a result of a "mistake" by the arresting officer.  The mistake may be an honest mistake, but qualifies immunity almost certainly guarantees no penalty to the arresting officer.  The average citizen has no recourse even if they lose their livelihood as a result of a "mistake" made by the arresting officer.  The arrest will follow anyone with a clearance.

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It is mind boggling to see some think there is no reputation at stake when a person gets arrested. And concern for reputation is immediately interpreted as concern for personal dope or other lawlessness.   Always remember, the protections around warrants are there for long term protection of general citizens. They look beyond individual honesty, competence of an individual LEO, one department or a two term pro people Governor or President.   If you cannot see that and rather venture on a mission to root out all "unlawful" things and advice any inconvenience removed, then you might as well start knocking on the doors in middle of night and find every dope that every person hides in their house.  Enough said. 

 

 

PS: Dont take this personally. Take a long view, beyond yourself, and your time. 

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 NJ Supreme court has overturned a previous ruling and is now allowing warrantless car searches.  Now a cop can stop you for whatever violation fits and for no reason search your car.    so scrape those "3 percenter" , "oathkeeper" and gun related bumper stickers off your car,   make sure your turn signals work as any of those will be their probable cause .    The Police State NJ.

 

No stickers on my truck, before heading to the range (and when leaving the range) I check to make sure running lights, break lights, turn signals, headlights are all working...keep it slightly under the speed limit and drive like your liberty depends on it. Make sure reg/insurance is good same with inspection, make sure plates are not obscured. No reason to pull me over.

 

Wrap gun cases in blankets, tons of crap in the back (think: work truck).

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Maybe a stupid question, but what happens if you are pulled over and asked where you are going- "I am going to the shooting range officer", and he asks can I see what you are shooting today?  Can you say no?  Is there probable cause that one of your firearms MAY not be 100% compliant with the very complex and at times arbitrary PRNJ anti gun laws?

 

I wouldn't volunteer any information. If the Nazi's want to know where I am going the answer will be "none of your business". Last time I checked movement hasn't been restricted (yet).

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Oregano is oregano, Marijuana is not. Seems a lot of people are concerned about cops finding their dope. I guess you think most cops are too stupid to know the difference. Even if that were true the lab report would come back well before a trial and the case would be dismissed. Afraid of your boss finding out? Do you have a job that requires you to be drug free? In that case you value your buzz more than your job? You should have gotten a job in the construction trades. Your union will only suspend you from certain jobs not all. You fly airplanes or are a train engineer? I don't want you doing that and using drugs.

 

What Shaneen did only shows you don't have to meet a certain intelligence level to get a carry permit. Not saying it shouldn't have been okay but if you want to stay out of jail don't break the law.

So when the lab report comes back negative, time go in reverse and the person is not: arrested, printed, mugshot taken, lawyer not hired etc. Hey it was only oregano.

No, I haven't used weed in > 40 years. And yes, illegal drugs are a dismissable offense at my company.

 

So you think someone exercising a very specifically spelled out constitutional right must be stupid.

 

Thanks for making your stand obvious. Why don't you turn your carry weapon in. And see how reasonable NJ law is.

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Roadside search questions: Can they look inside a locked tool box in the bed of a pickup? Do I have to give him the key? ANy comments would be much appreciated.

 

If they have "probably cause" they can.  You don't have to give them a key you don't have to consent to the search. But that won't stop them from searching - if they have PC to do so.

 

I will never consent to a search. If they are asking for permission, they don't have PC.   I also don't drive like an idiot, I'm respectful to everyone I meet - police included, and I'll never have anything in plain site that will lead to a search.  I've made it more than 40 years without being asked.

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If you have something in a locked compartment thats not readily accessible to the driver you should get a warrant. That kind of removes the exigency. More than likely a warrant would be obtained and a search performed at a later time. People have to realize that if an officer is found violating these laws willingly or even negligently they can be charged. Its not in our best interest to fabricate stuff

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If you have something in a locked compartment thats not readily accessible to the driver you should get a warrant. That kind of removes the exigency. More than likely a warrant would be obtained and a search performed at a later time. People have to realize that if an officer is found violating these laws willingly or even negligently they can be charged. Its not in our best interest to fabricate stuff

What are the actual charges against an officer that violates someones constitutional rights?  Is this just retraining?  The penalty should be as severe as the crime that they are accusing a person of committing.

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What MG said above. Not everyone who consents to search are clear. And not everyone who refuses search are dirty. 

 

Officers are trained to stay in control of the situation and be mindful of certain things.  Subtle cues and casual conversation is what one need to watch for. 

 

1. Do NOT threaten or interfere (verbally or physically)

2. Be courteous and respectful 

3. Respectfully but clearly refuse any request for consent. Consenting does not help you. 

4. Comply with lawful orders 

5. If you can, have things on video

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