Sunday Funday with Black Hat Training Corps

[Bully 749]

Would anyone else be interested in a one day class conducted by "Black Hat Training Corps?" I will be taking one on Sunday, Nov. 8th. The class will be shooting to 700 yards. Cost will be around $200. PM me if you are interested.

Take a look at their site and check the "Frequently Ask Questions: Equiptment"

 

Class will be held at: New Holland Rifle and Pistol Club - 589 Meetinghouse Road, Gap, PA

 

Here is the recommended breakdown for the day:

 

1 - Rifle fitment and adjustment (fitting it to the shooter like a glove) Bring any wrenches required to adjust your scope and rings..

 

2 - Classroom overview on external ballistics and trajectory.

 

3 - Shooting position analysis and correction (we WILL get very detailed on this. This goes hand in hand with fitment)

 

4 - Zeroing (how, why, where, and when)

 

5 - Basic Rifle Marksmanship work (if we can't shoot consistently, we can only hit the target by accident)

 

6 - Scope adjustment fundamentals (there's a right and wrong way to run your scope)

 

7 - Roughing out and verifying elevation settings out to 700Y on steel and paper targets (I calculate, you adjust and fire)

 

8 - Recording data

 

9 - Range Estimation

 

Shooters must bring appropriate rifle/glass and will be responsible for bringing their own food. Class will be approximately 6 hours in length.

 

Please PM me if you are interested in going. I'm not at all affiliated with the company/instructors. I heard about them from another site. However they seem to be pretty well regarded. I'm a beginner at distance so the day will be structured to accommodate that.

 

Their site is http://www.bhtcorps.com/

[Alex V 99]

Round count? 

[sosa9999 5]

Would love to take this class but doesn't look like they accept an AR15. 

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 358]

Round count I'm told is 100-150 minimum

[Alex V 99]

Round count I'm told is 100-150 minimum

 

Hm.  Not a lot, but not bad considering.  Never get to stretch out the OBR 7.62.  

 

Silly question tho, how can we shoot to 700y at a range which goes to 600y?  Either way.  How do we sign up?

[Bully 749]

Hm.  Not a lot, but not bad considering.  Never get to stretch out the OBR 7.62.  

 

Silly question tho, how can we shoot to 700y at a range which goes to 600y?  Either way.  How do we sign up?

PM incoming.

 

C

[Bully 749]

Would love to take this class but doesn't look like they accept an AR15.

An AR-15 in .223 would be challenging at best at 600-700 yards. AR-10 would not be an issue.

 

C

[Bully 749]

Round count?

I am going to have 150-200 rounds on hand.

[sosa9999 5]

An AR-15 in .223 would be challenging at best at 600-700 yards. AR-10 would not be an issue.C

my next rifle will be a 6.5 creedmoor once the funds are available. But for now I have a Ar15 which won't do the job for this class.

[Alex V 99]

I think you can stretch out an SPR to 600y with 77gr SMKs.  May not get much feedback from steel tho at that range.

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

I think you can stretch out an SPR to 600y with 77gr SMKs.  May not get much feedback from steel tho at that range.

 

The lead instructor that teaches that course uses a custom AR15 in 223 Rem most of the time to shoot the drills with the class out to 800 yards (when they are at a different range that goes out to 1080 yards). I asked him why he chose that rifle and he told me its a great training tool that makes him use what he teaches each and every shot or else it will be a miss. Not alot of room for error at those distances with that platform.

 

Also, The New Holland Range does indeed go out to 700 yards. It was 600 but they made it out to 700 over the past winter.

[Bully 749]

^^^Thanks Bud.^^^

[Alex V 99]

Also, The New Holland Range does indeed go out to 700 yards. It was 600 but they made it out to 700 over the past winter.

 

They should update the site!  Nice!

[Blackjack988 8]

I think you can stretch out an SPR to 600y with 77gr SMKs.  May not get much feedback from steel tho at that range.

 

 

The lead instructor that teaches that course uses a custom AR15 in 223 Rem most of the time to shoot the drills with the class out to 800 yards (when they are at a different range that goes out to 1080 yards). I asked him why he chose that rifle and he told me its a great training tool that makes him use what he teaches each and every shot or else it will be a miss. Not alot of room for error at those distances with that platform.

 

Also, The New Holland Range does indeed go out to 700 yards. It was 600 but they made it out to 700 over the past winter.

 

 

Agreed. Depending on the barrel length and bullet you can easily get hits on steel out to 800 yards.  Freddy/BHTC ran a DMR course a few weeks ago out at Lewistown and I was easily able to hit steel out to 8-900 yards with my 18" Noveske SPR running 77gr SMKs.  Many of the people at the course were running 16" rifles and seemed to be getting hits out to there as well.

[Eric. 9]

Ive taken training with BHTC and Freddy Wissing.

 

Couldnt be more satisfied with their product(s).

 

 

Eric

[Eric. 9]

Agreed. Depending on the barrel length and bullet you can easily get hits on steel out to 800 yards. Freddy/BHTC ran a DMR course a few weeks ago out at Lewistown and I was easily able to hit steel out to 8-900 yards with my 18" Noveske SPR running 77gr SMKs. Many of the people at the course were running 16" rifles and seemed to be getting hits out to there as well.

The only issue is that a .223 is typically going transonic around the 625 yd area. While hits can be made past that, its a bit of a crap shoot.

 

 

Eric

[bhtc 0]

^^^  High shooter on the final exam right there. ^^^  Scoring a 90 out of a possible 100 with a passing score being 57.  

 

Depends on the bullet.  You're right if you are talking about M193/855 but  I am shooting 77 Sierra Matchkings at ~2675 out of a WOA 18" 1:7 tube, and they are going subsonic somewhere around 825-850 conditions depending.  

 

Shooting this platform at long range brings a substantially higher degree of difficulty for a lot of reasons.  I feel plenty comfortable with it to 800.  

[jrfly3006 42]

What magnification are you guys using at 600+?...I feel inferior with the 3-9 Leupy on my SPR..

[bhtc 0]

10x on my DMR gun.   On my 260 and 300 win no more than 11x for 1000Y.   

 

If by SPR you mean a .223 AR and not an FN SPR, then you should be just fine with that.   

 

Are there times in a competition where I wished I had a little more? Yes, for example when it would help to see my impacts on paper.  Most of the time I am thankful I didn't overscope it.  

[jrfly3006 42]

10x on my DMR gun. On my 260 and 300 win no more than 11x for 1000Y.

 

If by SPR you mean a .223 AR and not an FN SPR, then you should be just fine with that.

 

Are there times in a competition where I wished I had a little more? Yes, for example when it would help to see my impacts on paper. Most of the time I am thankful I didn't overscope it.

Got ya..yes its a .223 SPR

[Eric. 9]

^^^  High shooter on the final exam right there. ^^^  Scoring a 90 out of a possible 100 with a passing score being 57.  

 

Depends on the bullet.  You're right if you are talking about M193/855 but  I am shooting 77 Sierra Matchkings at ~2675 out of a WOA 18" 1:7 tube, and they are going subsonic somewhere around 825-850 conditions depending.  

 

Shooting this platform at long range brings a substantially higher degree of difficulty for a lot of reasons.  I feel plenty comfortable with it to 800.  

Welcome to the forum, Freddy.  I think we'll all benefit from having your input here!

 

Guys, bhtc is Freddy Wissing:  Black Hat Training Corp www.bhtcorp.com

 

 

Eric

[sosa9999 5]

Question

 

I have a AR15 with a lothar walther 20inch barrel 1:8 twist. I have devoloped a load, 69gr SMK 24.6gr Varget. Would that be suitable for this class? Opinions please.

 

Also I have a Nikon p223 4x12-40. Would that be a good enough optic?

 

I am guessing heavier bullet, not good enough optic. Maybe wait till I get a new rifle.

[Eric. 9]

Question

 

I have a AR15 with a lothar walther 20inch barrel 1:8 twist. I have devoloped a load, 69gr SMK 24.6gr Varget. Would that be suitable for this class? Opinions please.

 

Also I have a Nikon p223 4x12-40. Would that be a good enough optic?

 

I am guessing heavier bullet, not good enough optic. Maybe wait till I get a new rifle.

I know this question is for Freddy, but, i can get out to 750yds with my gun (18" barrel, shooting 69gr BlackHills smk's).

 

Also, what reticle does your scope have?

 

 

Eric

[Eric. 9]

Depends on the bullet. You're right if you are talking about M193/855 but I am shooting 77 Sierra Matchkings at ~2675 out of a WOA 18" 1:7 tube, and they are going subsonic somewhere around 825-850 conditions depending.

 

Yes, thanks for clarifying.

 

Eric

[bhtc 0]

We have a DMR course which is expressly focused on the AR platform guns, primarily in .223/5.56.   Any one of these guns is solidly in the wheel house for that course.   

 

If you are talking about using a .223 in any long range precision rifle course, that is something I would not recommend.   

 

I know some have seen me using one of these guns in the place of a precision rifle, but this is one of those times where I'm not looking to encourage a "monkey see, monkey do" model.   

 

The reasons I do that are very different than what a prospective student would have who is trying to lay down solid bottom stones of a long range skills pyramid.  

 

My reasons:

 

1 -Our own rules:  Lead from the front, and teach from the gun.  Someone from our staff shoots all the drills with the students.  Nobody wants to learn from a guy with a bullhorn in a lawn chair.   Since most students shoot .308, using this platform over my 260 or 300W shows that it's good wind calls and basic rifle marksmanship, not a caliber race that gets the hits.

 

2 - I'm always training.   I shoot a perfect score on the final exam every time with a bolt gun.   Most seasoned long range competitors would too.    Am I learning anything if I do that?  Am I pressing myself?   Nope.   I have never shot a perfect score with my 223 (yet).  96% was the closest so far.  

 

3 - The discipline required in shooting a semi automatic over a bolt gun can't be overstated.  Add in that you're using a caliber/bullet with a substantially lower BC, and the challenge becomes almost crazy.   Especially with the trigger, a bolt gun can hide a LOT of sins, where a semi is extremely unforgiving.  I'm ready for this fight.  A new student trying to wrap his head around it all is not.  

 

===========================

 

If you are taking a course for the first time or learning long range shooting, I recommend an accurate bolt gun in 308 or any of the .264 calibers.  I want students focused on hitting the targets and performing the exercises, not fighting the gun all day.  A huge part of learning this is developing confidence in the platform and the shooter.  With the limited success a student is sure to have with a .223 AR, we aren't going to be able to lay down nearly as much confidence as we can with a .308 bolt gun.

 

As far as glass, you really do need a reticle that can measure.   An MOA or MIL based reticle as opposed to a BDC.  

 

Not mandatory, but highly recommended is a scope with matching units of measure on the reticle and the knobs.   MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA.   It's a huge PITA to come after this discipline with mixed measuring units.  Specifically, it's twice the work.

 

Entry level bolt gun?   After this weekend, I'd be crazy not to recommend the Ruger Precision Rifle.  I held back on this until I was able to shoot one.  Two quick headshots at 500Y, and then I went to work busting clays at 515.   Solid and extremely accurate right out of the box.  

 

But as I always say, don't put a silver saddle on a jackass:   "Buy the scope first. "

[sosa9999 5]

We have a DMR course which is expressly focused on the AR platform guns, primarily in .223/5.56.   Any one of these guns is solidly in the wheel house for that course.   

 

If you are talking about using a .223 in any long range precision rifle course, that is something I would not recommend.   

 

I know some have seen me using one of these guns in the place of a precision rifle, but this is one of those times where I'm not looking to encourage a "monkey see, monkey do" model.   

 

The reasons I do that are very different than what a prospective student would have who is trying to lay down solid bottom stones of a long range skills pyramid.  

 

My reasons:

 

1 -Our own rules:  Lead from the front, and teach from the gun.  Someone from our staff shoots all the drills with the students.  Nobody wants to learn from a guy with a bullhorn in a lawn chair.   Since most students shoot .308, using this platform over my 260 or 300W shows that it's good wind calls and basic rifle marksmanship, not a caliber race that gets the hits.

 

2 - I'm always training.   I shoot a perfect score on the final exam every time with a bolt gun.   Most seasoned long range competitors would too.    Am I learning anything if I do that?  Am I pressing myself?   Nope.   I have never shot a perfect score with my 223 (yet).  96% was the closest so far.  

 

3 - The discipline required in shooting a semi automatic over a bolt gun can't be overstated.  Add in that you're using a caliber/bullet with a substantially lower BC, and the challenge becomes almost crazy.   Especially with the trigger, a bolt gun can hide a LOT of sins, where a semi is extremely unforgiving.  I'm ready for this fight.  A new student trying to wrap his head around it all is not.  

 

===========================

 

If you are taking a course for the first time or learning long range shooting, I recommend an accurate bolt gun in 308 or any of the .264 calibers.  I want students focused on hitting the targets and performing the exercises, not fighting the gun all day.  A huge part of learning this is developing confidence in the platform and the shooter.  With the limited success a student is sure to have with a .223 AR, we aren't going to be able to lay down nearly as much confidence as we can with a .308 bolt gun.

 

As far as glass, you really do need a reticle that can measure.   An MOA or MIL based reticle as opposed to a BDC.  

 

Not mandatory, but highly recommended is a scope with matching units of measure on the reticle and the knobs.   MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA.   It's a huge PITA to come after this discipline with mixed measuring units.  Specifically, it's twice the work.

 

Entry level bolt gun?   After this weekend, I'd be crazy not to recommend the Ruger Precision Rifle.  I held back on this until I was able to shoot one.  Two quick headshots at 500Y, and then I went to work busting clays at 515.   Solid and extremely accurate right out of the box.  

 

But as I always say, don't put a silver saddle on a jackass:   "Buy the scope first. "

Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

[Alex V 99]

We have a DMR course which is expressly focused on the AR platform guns, primarily in .223/5.56.   Any one of these guns is solidly in the wheel house for that course.   

 

If you are talking about using a .223 in any long range precision rifle course, that is something I would not recommend.   

 

I know some have seen me using one of these guns in the place of a precision rifle, but this is one of those times where I'm not looking to encourage a "monkey see, monkey do" model.   

 

The reasons I do that are very different than what a prospective student would have who is trying to lay down solid bottom stones of a long range skills pyramid.  

 

My reasons:

 

1 -Our own rules:  Lead from the front, and teach from the gun.  Someone from our staff shoots all the drills with the students.  Nobody wants to learn from a guy with a bullhorn in a lawn chair.   Since most students shoot .308, using this platform over my 260 or 300W shows that it's good wind calls and basic rifle marksmanship, not a caliber race that gets the hits.

 

2 - I'm always training.   I shoot a perfect score on the final exam every time with a bolt gun.   Most seasoned long range competitors would too.    Am I learning anything if I do that?  Am I pressing myself?   Nope.   I have never shot a perfect score with my 223 (yet).  96% was the closest so far.  

 

3 - The discipline required in shooting a semi automatic over a bolt gun can't be overstated.  Add in that you're using a caliber/bullet with a substantially lower BC, and the challenge becomes almost crazy.   Especially with the trigger, a bolt gun can hide a LOT of sins, where a semi is extremely unforgiving.  I'm ready for this fight.  A new student trying to wrap his head around it all is not.  

 

===========================

 

If you are taking a course for the first time or learning long range shooting, I recommend an accurate bolt gun in 308 or any of the .264 calibers.  I want students focused on hitting the targets and performing the exercises, not fighting the gun all day.  A huge part of learning this is developing confidence in the platform and the shooter.  With the limited success a student is sure to have with a .223 AR, we aren't going to be able to lay down nearly as much confidence as we can with a .308 bolt gun.

 

As far as glass, you really do need a reticle that can measure.   An MOA or MIL based reticle as opposed to a BDC.  

 

Not mandatory, but highly recommended is a scope with matching units of measure on the reticle and the knobs.   MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA.   It's a huge PITA to come after this discipline with mixed measuring units.  Specifically, it's twice the work.

 

Entry level bolt gun?   After this weekend, I'd be crazy not to recommend the Ruger Precision Rifle.  I held back on this until I was able to shoot one.  Two quick headshots at 500Y, and then I went to work busting clays at 515.   Solid and extremely accurate right out of the box.  

 

But as I always say, don't put a silver saddle on a jackass:   "Buy the scope first. "

Friday is Pay Day.  Going to e-mail you for this class if spots are still open on Friday.  Thanks! Don't have a bolt gun, but I would use my 18" 7.62 OBR with Steiner 5-25 MSR

[bhtc 0]

The OBR's shoot like a crackhouse on fire.  I haven't seen one yet that didn't.   

 

We're actually done until the springtime except for a couple individual training days.   It's just too damn cold up on that mountain.  

[Blackjack988 8]

The OBR's shoot like a crackhouse on fire.  I haven't seen one yet that didn't.   

 

We're actually done until the springtime except for a couple individual training days.   It's just too damn cold up on that mountain.  

 

I'll take the cold over the torrential downpour we had during the DMR course.  Mike, Chris, and Chet looked like drowned rats after setting up the final exercise.  Besides, my AI lives for the cold....

[bhtc 0]

That was the only time I did not shoot the entire final exam with the students.   We literally could not see the targets.   That mountain is a crucible.  It's capable of producing the worst at any time.  

 

I'll say this - those that attended that DMR course know how to deliver hits in some mighty unpleasant conditions.

 

We also saw a bear run across the range last weekend.  I didn't have time to snap a pic.  

 

You're right, that AI was expressly designed around wet, bitterly cold British winters with an SAS sniper laying behind it for four hours waiting for a long shot that could come any time and has to be made in >10 seconds.  It's hard to impress that rifle with a thermometer.