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There was an incident at RTSP today

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Please pass on my condolences as well Troy! Distressed individuals think this a good place to end it all. They are sadly mistaken as their selfish act

takes a toll not just on their loved ones but also on everyone who witnesses the aftermath and has to clean up!

 

May God bless those who suffer now due to this act and I pray he reaches out to those who may contemplate such suicidal acts in the future and let them

decide to seek help and God's love instead!!! Suicide is NEVER the answer to a problem!

 

Perhaps a well thought out sign should be posted at that range and all ranges offering help and dissuading such future behavior! If done right, it would not serve as a reminder of what happened

in the past but act as a subtle, thought provoking idea that, "What you do here effects everyone"  "please be careful" "Don't be selfish" Think of the others first" kind of reminder!

If it saves one life it would be worth it! Sort of a 10 Commandments for the range! Everyone knows what happened so reaching out to prevent it in the future would

not only be understood, but much appreciated!!!

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Rob0115:

 

I am also a member at the Gun For Hire / Woodland Park Range and that is not my understanding...

I just checked GFH's web site and to be clear here is what they say, (I did a cut and paste....):

 

AVB-AMG

 

"What do I need to shoot?

Each person MUST come with a Valid Government issued I.D. (examples: Driver’s License, Passport, etc.).  Any Male coming to the Range alone to rent a firearm MUST have either a Firearms Identification Card (F.I.D.) or come in with a companion. Any Female coming to the Range to rent a firearm can come alone, without a Firearms Identification Card or a companion if they choose to. We have everything you need to enjoy your time at our range.

 

What do I need to do when I get there?

Please STOP at our Concierge Desk. We have some paperwork every NEW Person to the Range MUST fill out before you can continue. We will then take your photo and confirm your Government issued I.D. (This step is for EVERY First Time individual visiting the Range. You only have to do this for the First Visit). Each individual must have identification with them.

 

How does it work?

Once signed in with our Concierge, please make your way to the Retail area. The Retail area has two lines: Members Only (“Rapid Fire” line) and Non-Members (which is our “First Shots” line at the right side of the Retail area). One of our Professionals will guide you through your options of Training, Port Time, Eye and Ear Protection, Targets, and Firearm Rental choices if necessary. We will ask to hold an I.D. while our rental guns are in use. I.D.’s will be returned upon the return of our rentals.

If I am New to shooting, have never properly shot a firearm before or it has been a while since my last experience and I could use some proper instruction, will you teach me? Yes. Here at Gun For Hire we are all about firearm safety and proper handling of firearms. Please let us know at the register if you are a New Shooter or Inexperienced. You MUST take our 15 Minute Intro course. (Video games, Shooting in to the Woods and the Boardwalk doesn’t count!)"

I was standing in Ottomanelli's when a guy said he was going home to get his brother because he was yet to get his FID and was turned down to shoot at GFH.  This was on Friday or Saturday of this past week.  I guess they think women are less likely to do the deed this way?  Unsure the specific rule but anecdotally that is what I had heard recently.  

 

I should have clarified I am big fan of the guys that run RTSP--their lack of understanding multi-state resident purchases aside--they run a great place and wish them nothing but success.  It is sad for people who have put their blood, sweat and tears into building a business to have it jeopardized by an individual hellbent on hurting so many people, intended and unintended.  I also feel for their employees who need to witness these things and live through it.  I hope they all find the peace they deserve and do not let these events mar them in any way.  

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calling these people selfish is not understanding the disease.  When someone has cancer and looses their hair, we get that, a broken leg in a cast or a wheel chair, we get that too,heart disease and cancer, we understand that.......but the brain, those neurotranmitters...we dont.  It is hard for the healthy mind to understand the pain and desperation and hopelessness that these soles feel.  They are not punishing anyone, they are not thinking about their, parents, siblings, wives etc.....they are just lost and want out, they are dying too.   Sadly it exposes us to the far reaching effects of mental illness and some people will be present during that final act. Whether they choose to rent at RTSP, jump from the GWB, step out into the path of truck, or take pills....we cannot stop them.  All thats left to do is pray for those they left behind, and the people that were working at the range, and that truck driver, or the cop that could not stop that person from jumping....nothing good comes from these events.  Hug someone you love, kids, wife, significant other, parents.  

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I was standing in Ottomanelli's when a guy said he was going home to get his brother because he was yet to get his FID and was turned down to shoot at GFH.  This was on Friday or Saturday of this past week.  I guess they think women are less likely to do the deed this way?  Unsure the specific rule but anecdotally that is what I had heard recently.

 

There have been plenty of studies that show males are more likely to attempt suicide by a violent method (e.g. firearm, hanging), while women send to attempt a more passive method (e.g. overdose). Any business like GFH certainly pays liability insurance based on their policies.

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calling these people selfish is not understanding the disease. When someone has cancer and looses their hair, we get that, a broken leg in a cast or a wheel chair, we get that too,heart disease and cancer, we understand that.......but the brain, those neurotranmitters...we dont. It is hard for the healthy mind to understand the pain and desperation and hopelessness that these soles feel. They are not punishing anyone, they are not thinking about their, parents, siblings, wives etc.....they are just lost and want out, they are dying too. Sadly it exposes us to the far reaching effects of mental illness and some people will be present during that final act. Whether they choose to rent at RTSP, jump from the GWB, step out into the path of truck, or take pills....we cannot stop them. All thats left to do is pray for those they left behind, and the people that were working at the range, and that truck driver, or the cop that could not stop that person from jumping....nothing good comes from these events. Hug someone you love, kids, wife, significant other, parents.

 

When you kill yourself you are taking the easy way out and leaving everyone else around you with the consequences

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Like i said, you are not getting it, it is not "easy", it is not an "out", it is genetics, DNA, pharmacology, illness,  its a disease, You can not see it, it does not have rash, it does not slow your blood flow, it does not grow tumors on your organs.  and the sooner we come to understand it, the better our prospect of defending our 2nd amendment rights and defending ourselves because this is the stuff that others will uses against us.    

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calling these people selfish is not understanding the disease.  When someone has cancer and looses their hair, we get that, a broken leg in a cast or a wheel chair, we get that too,heart disease and cancer, we understand that.......but the brain, those neurotranmitters...we dont.  It is hard for the healthy mind to understand the pain and desperation and hopelessness that these soles feel.  They are not punishing anyone, they are not thinking about their, parents, siblings, wives etc.....they are just lost and want out, they are dying too.   Sadly it exposes us to the far reaching effects of mental illness and some people will be present during that final act. Whether they choose to rent at RTSP, jump from the GWB, step out into the path of truck, or take pills....we cannot stop them.  All thats left to do is pray for those they left behind, and the people that were working at the range, and that truck driver, or the cop that could not stop that person from jumping....nothing good comes from these events.  Hug someone you love, kids, wife, significant other, parents.  

 

 

If someone wants to off themselves that's their choice.   Just don't do it where it puts other people in jeopardy.   Forcing someone else to witness your act which may mentally scar them, physically hurt or even possibly kill them as well is not fair to them.   Plenty of ways to off yourself in a private setting that is quick and painless which won't put other people in danger.

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There have been plenty of studies that show males are more likely to attempt suicide by a violent method (e.g. firearm, hanging), while women send to attempt a more passive method (e.g. overdose). Any business like GFH certainly pays liability insurance based on their policies.

OK, I'm not commenting on whether or not it's true.  I was completely unaware is all.  

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If someone wants to off themselves that's their choice.   Just don't do it where it puts other people in jeopardy.   Forcing someone else to witness your act which may mentally scar them, physically hurt or even possibly kill them as well is not fair to them.   Plenty of ways to off yourself in a private setting that is quick and painless which won't put other people in danger.

a rational, healthy sane person would probably be more considerate in how they kill themselves.  so much for conventional wisdom....

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This does nothing but promote negative effects for all involved. What can be done to minimize this sort of tragedy, short of not allowing the muzzle to point anywhere but downrange, I do not know.  There are way to many troubled young males in today's society.  I have my reasons for this, but here is not the place to discuss.  

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Sorry for the RSO's, RTSP and anyone that was there.  Not something that is easy to deal with.  Hope the best for you all

 

I really don't think any RSO, RTSP employee, etc could really do anything to prevent someone from doing this.  It happens all too fast when someone is determined to take ones life in this manner.

 

Best of luck to all at RTSP, I will be there for a training class a week from Sunday and trust all the instructors and RSO's there!

 

-Craig

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Sureshot in lakewood had its fair share of suicides

 

There's really no way around it.  RTSP has a higher amount of foot traffic than Shore Shot because of their location, I believe.  It's a lot closer to NY/NYC than SS.  It's bound to happen... but to have 2 happen in less than 6 months time is a bit alarming.

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calling these people selfish is not understanding the disease.  When someone has cancer and looses their hair, we get that, a broken leg in a cast or a wheel chair, we get that too,heart disease and cancer, we understand that.......but the brain, those neurotranmitters...we dont.  It is hard for the healthy mind to understand the pain and desperation and hopelessness that these soles feel.  They are not punishing anyone, they are not thinking about their, parents, siblings, wives etc.....they are just lost and want out, they are dying too.   Sadly it exposes us to the far reaching effects of mental illness and some people will be present during that final act.

 

ALAN553

 

Yes, you make a good point that many, if not most suicides are motivated by some form of mental illness.  Those who suffer from mental illness are not able to think clearly and rationally.  Depression is a mental illness and is a terrible disease that is difficult to diagnose and treat, because usually the first steps must be made from the depressed person seeking help.  Many of these people don't take these first steps and can hide their symptoms from everyone they know. But that does not mean that the act of suicide is not selfish.

 

Even recognizing and accepting your point, I still believe that suicide IS a selfish act for a number of valid reasons.  In some ways suicide is the most selfish act that someone can ever commit. It is a universal declaration that you choose to live and die on your own terms and that your destiny lies wholly in your own hands, regardless of what others may think.  Allow me to elaborate with the following related reasons and explanations:

 

1.  Suicide is a very selfish thing to do, but it's not selfish the way normal people are described as selfish. Blatantly ignoring the needs of others while only fulfilling your own needs is what normal selfish people do all the time. But a suicidal person is sick and can't help but be completely absorbed in their pain and suffering. Mentally, they have lost that battle against their pain, as it has completely consumed their mind. While they may think they are doing others a favor by killing themselves, which is not selfish, in the end, actually doing it is. Because by definition, being selfish means to only tend to your own needs and not the needs of others. Suicide IS selfish. Wanting someone to stay alive for you is ALSO selfish. Almost everything we do in life is selfish but that doesn't make it wrong. Selfish isn't a bad thing. It's just how we humans are.

 

2.  No matter what someone is going through, committing or attempting to commit suicide requires that the person in question has decided-- not contemplated the possibility of or anything abstract, but decided-- that their feelings trump the feelings of those around them. That they are going to knowingly and voluntarily cause harm to other people in an attempt to make things better for themselves. Therefore, suicide is a selfish act because every action you take is a selfish one. There are no selfless actions because all actions are taken in the context of yourself.  One commits suicide because you are sad or lonely or you hurt. You, you, you. It's all about you. It's your life, your pain, your decision. This is why suicide is selfish.

 

3.  Suicide is the highest form of self-love. While commonly people assume it is because people hate themselves/their lives, etc., the truth is people who commit suicide love themselves above all else. Their plight is more important to them than anything else in existence, their troubles so insurmountable and terrible that they must be dealt with in the most extreme fashion with total disregard to life. In their moment they are the most important person on earth, they must decide to remove themselves from living, they give themselves control over something that the rest of us try and ignore and delay. If they loved something or anything more than they loved themselves they would have something to live for, but by deduction if they have nothing external to love they must internally love themselves the most. That's selfish.

 

4.  Looking up the definition of “selfish” in the dictionary reveals that it means to "Having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people." and/or “excessively and exclusively being concerned with oneself and concentrating on one's own well-being without regard for others.”   From this definition and forgetting about all the other connotations associated with the word, those who commit suicide are completely absorbed in their own problems and can't move past them. They cannot find a reason to live. Some suicides are due to someone thinking that their loved ones would be better off without them, but it doesn't make it any less selfish, because they are so self-absorbed they can't see that this simply isn't true.

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I don't want it to get to this:

OZ-range-660x454.jpg

 

Krdshrk:  

 

Damn!  With all those chains and wires it looks like that could be some new form of a ballistic masochistic sport….  

 

AVB-AMG

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ALAN553

 

Yes, you make a good point that many, if not most suicides are motivated by some form of mental illness.  Those who suffer from mental illness are not able to think clearly and rationally.  Depression is a mental illness and is a terrible disease that is difficult to diagnose and treat, because usually the first steps must be made from the depressed person seeking help.  Many of these people don't take these first steps and can hide their symptoms from everyone they know. But that does not mean that the act of suicide is not selfish.

 

Even recognizing and accepting your point, I still believe that suicide IS a selfish act for a number of valid reasons.  In some ways suicide is the most selfish act that someone can ever commit. It is a universal declaration that you choose to live and die on your own terms and that your destiny lies wholly in your own hands, regardless of what others may think.  Allow me to elaborate with the following related reasons and explanations:

 

1.  Suicide is a very selfish thing to do, but it's not selfish the way normal people are described as selfish. Blatantly ignoring the needs of others while only fulfilling your own needs is what normal selfish people do all the time. But a suicidal person is sick and can't help but be completely absorbed in their pain and suffering. Mentally, they have lost that battle against their pain, as it has completely consumed their mind. While they may think they are doing others a favor by killing themselves, which is not selfish, in the end, actually doing it is. Because by definition, being selfish means to only tend to your own needs and not the needs of others. Suicide IS selfish. Wanting someone to stay alive for you is ALSO selfish. Almost everything we do in life is selfish but that doesn't make it wrong. Selfish isn't a bad thing. It's just how we humans are.

 

2.  No matter what someone is going through, committing or attempting to commit suicide requires that the person in question has decided-- not contemplated the possibility of or anything abstract, but decided-- that their feelings trump the feelings of those around them. That they are going to knowingly and voluntarily cause harm to other people in an attempt to make things better for themselves. Therefore, suicide is a selfish act because every action you take is a selfish one. There are no selfless actions because all actions are taken in the context of yourself.  One commits suicide because you are sad or lonely or you hurt. You, you, you. It's all about you. It's your life, your pain, your decision. This is why suicide is selfish.

 

3.  Suicide is the highest form of self-love. While commonly people assume it is because people hate themselves/their lives, etc., the truth is people who commit suicide love themselves above all else. Their plight is more important to them than anything else in existence, their troubles so insurmountable and terrible that they must be dealt with in the most extreme fashion with total disregard to life. In their moment they are the most important person on earth, they must decide to remove themselves from living, they give themselves control over something that the rest of us try and ignore and delay. If they loved something or anything more than they loved themselves they would have something to live for, but by deduction if they have nothing external to love they must internally love themselves the most. That's selfish.

 

4.  Looking up the definition of “selfish” in the dictionary reveals that it means to "Having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people." and/or “excessively and exclusively being concerned with oneself and concentrating on one's own well-being without regard for others.”   From this definition and forgetting about all the other connotations associated with the word, those who commit suicide are completely absorbed in their own problems and can't move past them. They cannot find a reason to live. Some suicides are due to someone thinking that their loved ones would be better off without them, but it doesn't make it any less selfish, because they are so self-absorbed they can't see that this simply isn't true.

 

Clearly, the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness is as complicated as most other life threatening illnesses. Just always so hard to wrap out mind around it.

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suicide isnt selfish.

the people who expect someone to go on with their life hurting everyday for no reason just so they dont have to mourn a bit are selfish.

why ask them to suffer everyday for the rest of their lives so you feel better about yourselves?

 

ive seen both sides of the fence here, but being this is a gun forum and all im going to leave it at that

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ALAN553

 

Yes, you make a good point that many, if not most suicides are motivated by some form of mental illness.  Those who suffer from mental illness are not able to think clearly and rationally.  Depression is a mental illness and is a terrible disease that is difficult to diagnose and treat, because usually the first steps must be made from the depressed person seeking help.  Many of these people don't take these first steps and can hide their symptoms from everyone they know. But that does not mean that the act of suicide is not selfish.

 

Even recognizing and accepting your point, I still believe that suicide IS a selfish act for a number of valid reasons.  In some ways suicide is the most selfish act that someone can ever commit. It is a universal declaration that you choose to live and die on your own terms and that your destiny lies wholly in your own hands, regardless of what others may think.  Allow me to elaborate with the following related reasons and explanations:

 

1.  Suicide is a very selfish thing to do, but it's not selfish the way normal people are described as selfish. Blatantly ignoring the needs of others while only fulfilling your own needs is what normal selfish people do all the time. But a suicidal person is sick and can't help but be completely absorbed in their pain and suffering. Mentally, they have lost that battle against their pain, as it has completely consumed their mind. While they may think they are doing others a favor by killing themselves, which is not selfish, in the end, actually doing it is. Because by definition, being selfish means to only tend to your own needs and not the needs of others. Suicide IS selfish. Wanting someone to stay alive for you is ALSO selfish. Almost everything we do in life is selfish but that doesn't make it wrong. Selfish isn't a bad thing. It's just how we humans are.

 

2.  No matter what someone is going through, committing or attempting to commit suicide requires that the person in question has decided-- not contemplated the possibility of or anything abstract, but decided-- that their feelings trump the feelings of those around them. That they are going to knowingly and voluntarily cause harm to other people in an attempt to make things better for themselves. Therefore, suicide is a selfish act because every action you take is a selfish one. There are no selfless actions because all actions are taken in the context of yourself.  One commits suicide because you are sad or lonely or you hurt. You, you, you. It's all about you. It's your life, your pain, your decision. This is why suicide is selfish.

 

3.  Suicide is the highest form of self-love. While commonly people assume it is because people hate themselves/their lives, etc., the truth is people who commit suicide love themselves above all else. Their plight is more important to them than anything else in existence, their troubles so insurmountable and terrible that they must be dealt with in the most extreme fashion with total disregard to life. In their moment they are the most important person on earth, they must decide to remove themselves from living, they give themselves control over something that the rest of us try and ignore and delay. If they loved something or anything more than they loved themselves they would have something to live for, but by deduction if they have nothing external to love they must internally love themselves the most. That's selfish.

 

4.  Looking up the definition of “selfish” in the dictionary reveals that it means to "Having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people." and/or “excessively and exclusively being concerned with oneself and concentrating on one's own well-being without regard for others.”   From this definition and forgetting about all the other connotations associated with the word, those who commit suicide are completely absorbed in their own problems and can't move past them. They cannot find a reason to live. Some suicides are due to someone thinking that their loved ones would be better off without them, but it doesn't make it any less selfish, because they are so self-absorbed they can't see that this simply isn't true.

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