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Trusts and Corps Finally About to Fall for NFA

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On track for January.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/foghorn/submit-your-paperwork-now-atf-ruling-on-trusts-for-nfa-transfers-still-due-january-2016/

 

http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/11/27/atf-41p-update/

 

 

 

 

Where is that $#%#^ around here who has been saying for the last year that ATF is going to drop the LEO signature requirement? The one that moved to Florida and then moved back to Jersey?

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"

The NFATCA petitioned the ATF to remove the CLEO sign-off, and offered that they might get behind the idea of requiring fingerprints and background checks for everyone on a trust in trade. This backfired — the ATF proposed instead to require that those with trusts jump through the same hoops as those filing as an individual — photos, fingerprints, and CLEO sign-offs for the lot.  This gets exponentially more annoying for people who have multiple individuals attached to their trust, since every single person must go through the exact same process every time a new item is purchased."

 

Let this be a lesson and serve as a riminder for the next time any gun organization wants to be "reasonable" and compromise with the other side.

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I've been told that Duval and St. Johns County won't sign off. Some people have suggested that if this goes thru and the CLEO won't sign, they'd be voted out at the next election, but who really knows. Can only hope.

 

Duval won't sign.  St. Johns will sign for machineguns, but not suppressors because they were getting inundated and told people just to do a trust,  The sheriff is gun-friendly so I'm sure he'll change his tune with the new regs.

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The shall sign legislation is making it way through Florida, like it has I other states, which force Cleo sign off unless they have real data not to do so.

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Im working and have provided some legit funding to the cause. I've also hedged by filing for 6 SBR and 4 cans under a trust this year. 2k in tax what a waste.

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Looks good-to-go, CLEO notification not approval in the this discussion.

 

From David Goldman at guntrustlawyer.com (better formatting at the link). While not specifically about Florida, I think he provides more info than I have been able to find out there. Given he is a Floridian, he might have the best handle, once he's done going through the document. 


JANUARY 5, 2016 
Most of 41P is gutted by change to CLEO Notification 
https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2016/01/most-of-41p-is-gutted-by-change-to-cleo-notification.html 
by David M. Goldman 

Tonight we found a copy of the proposed final rule for 41P. It can be downloaded from this link 41P final.pdf 

In general, most of what the public was concerned about was removed from 41P by changing the CLEO Certification requirement that was proposed for trusts to be a CLEO Notification. 

It will not take effect until 180 days after publication in the Federal Registry so there is still time to purchase items under the existing rules and more reason than ever to create your Gun Trust now. 

While I am still reading the 248 pages, so far here are the highlights. 


  1. The final rule only requires that the applicant maker or transferee, including each responsible person for a trust or legal entity, provide a notice to the appropriate State or local official that an application is being submitted to ATF

  2. The final rule also adds a new section to ATF’s regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to a decedent. The new section clarifies that the executor, administrator, personal representative, or other person authorized under State law to dispose of property in an estate may possess a firearm registered to a decedent during the term of probate without such possession being treated as a “transfer” under the NFA. It also specifies that the transfer of the firearm to any beneficiary of the estate may be made on a tax-exempt basis.

Amendments to§ 479.62 proposed to change the following for Trusts: 
1. Provide that all information on the Form 1 application must be furnished for each responsible person of the applicant; 
2. Each responsible person must comply with the identification requirements prescribed in the proposed§ 479.63(b); and 
3. Require the applicant (including, if other than an individual, any responsible person), if an alien admitted under a nonimmigrant visa, to provide applicable documentation demonstrating that the applicant falls within an exception to 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) or has obtained a waiver of that provision. 

For individuals it is not as easy as they propose the following 
Amendments to§ 479.63, where the applicant is an individual, proposed to maintain the CLEO certification but omit the requirement for a statement about the use of a firearm for other than lawful purposes. This section proposed to require, instead, that the certification state that the official is satisfied that the fingerprints and photograph accompanying the application are those of the applicant and that the official has no information indicating that possession of the firearm by the maker would be in violation of State or local law. 

Additionally, amendments to a Form 1 or Form 4, where the applicant is a trust, or corporation, proposed to: 

1. Provide that the applicant must be identified on the Form 1 / Form 4 application by the name and exact location of the place of business, including the name of the county in which the business is located or, in the case of a trust, the address where the firearm is located. In the case 
of two or more locations, the address shown must be the principal place of business (or principal office, in the case of a corporation) or, in the case of a trust, the principal address at which the firearm is located; 

2. Require the applicant to attach to the application: 

• A completed ATF Form 5320.23 for each responsible person. Form 5320.23 would require certain identifying information for each responsible person, including each responsible person’s full name, position, Social Security number (optional), home address, date and place of birth, and country of citizenship; 
• In accordance with the instructions provided on Form 5320.23, a 2 x 2-inch photograph of each responsible person, clearly showing a full front view of the features of the responsible person with head bare, with the distance from the top of the head to the point of the chin approximately 1 V4 inches, and which must have been taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application; 
• Two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) for each responsible person. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and should be taken by someone properly equipped to take them; and 
• In accordance with the instructions provided on Form 5320.23, a certification for each responsible person completed by the local chief of police,.sheriff of the county, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor, or such other person whose certification may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director. The certification for each responsible person must be completed by the CLEO who has jurisdiction over the area in which the responsible person resides. The certification must state that the official is satisfied that the fingerprints and photograph 

Beneficiaries not not considered responsible persons 
Therefore, the Department believes that it is not necessary to positively identify a beneficiary as a “responsible person” within the definition unless they meet the definition of a responsible person. 

There is no requirement to update the ATF with changes in responsible persons after an application. 

Page 124: Department is not requiring in this final rule that new responsible persons submit a Form 5320.23 within 30 days of any change in responsible persons. 


So what does all this mean, most of the benefits for a trust will remain intact and a properly drafted Gun Trust is still the best way to purchase, own, possess, and transfer NFA firearms. Watch this page for more updates over the next few days

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I've been trying to find a definitive answer to this and I have sent some emails to a couple Gun Trust lawyers with no responses yet.... Are NJ residents still considered "reasonable persons"? Who will be required to do the fingerprinting? What happens if a NJ resident is in sole possession of an NFA item in their Trust? I'm scared to go hunting in PA with a suppressor by myself like I've always done.

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I've been trying to find a definitive answer to this and I have sent some emails to a couple Gun Trust lawyers with no responses yet.... Are NJ residents still considered "reasonable persons"? Who will be required to do the fingerprinting? What happens if a NJ resident is in sole possession of an NFA item in their Trust? I'm scared to go hunting in PA with a suppressor by myself like I've always done.

Sounds like good questions for a lawyer

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I got a response from my Trust lawyer as I was asking the same questions on here. Essentially we're fine. The finger printing can be done at a UPS store and this ruling does not automatically make NJ residents crimals/non-"reasonable persons". Time to a order a suppressor to celebrate lol

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I got a response from my Trust lawyer as I was asking the same questions on here. Essentially we're fine. The finger printing can be done at a UPS store and this ruling does not automatically make NJ residents crimals/non-"reasonable persons". Time to a order a suppressor to celebrate lol

 

If your lawyer says that you can have it in NJ get a new lawyer.  A gun trust just removes the need for CLEO sign off because of a legal entity vs person.  The NFA item still needs to be legal in the state where it is stored.  

 

Although I live in Florida and New Jersey, legally, all my NFA items are in FL because they are illegal in NJ.  I cannot posses them at my home in NJ although I own them legally through my trust and have the stamps.  

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If your lawyer says that you can have it in NJ get a new lawyer. A gun trust just removes the need for CLEO sign off because of a legal entity vs person. The NFA item still needs to be legal in the state where it is stored.

 

Although I live in Florida and New Jersey, legally, all my NFA items are in FL because they are illegal in NJ. I cannot posses them at my home in NJ although I own them legally through my trust and have the stamps.

Where/when did I say that I was going to be in possession of an NFA item in NJ? I'm fully aware of the NFA laws.

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Where/when did I say that I was going to be in possession of an NFA item in NJ? I'm fully aware of the NFA laws.

You said:

 

The finger printing can be done at a UPS store and this ruling does not automatically make NJ residents crimals/non-"reasonable persons". Time to a order a suppressor to celebrate lol.

 

I saw NJ resident and order a suppressor. What would I gather from that?

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You said:

 

The finger printing can be done at a UPS store and this ruling does not automatically make NJ residents crimals/non-"reasonable persons". Time to a order a suppressor to celebrate lol.

 

I saw NJ resident and order a suppressor. What would I gather from that?

You should gather exactly what it says, but it still doesn't say anything about a suppressor in NJ. All of my NFA items are in another state, just like yours. Thank you for your input though.

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You should gather exactly what it says, but it still doesn't say anything about a suppressor in NJ. All of my NFA items are in another state, just like yours. Thank you for your input though.

Fair enough but when I look at the thread I didn't notice where you have an out-of-state residence.

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I am in PA.

 

41P was intended to close the trust loophole so I know this decision is directed at trusts.  If it relaxes the CLEO sign vs notify I do not know.  You should contact an attorney.  It would be interested and would remove the need for trusts if the only goal is to acquire NFA items.  

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