Is it Legal in NJ for Gun Range/Store Employees to Open Carry?

[AVB-AMG 530]

Question:  Is it actually legal in NJ for employees of a gun range to open carry a firearm?
 

First of all this is NOT a criticism.  I have observed at a number of gun ranges that I have visited in NJ that most, but not all, of the staff, (sales, counter, instructors), open carry a pistol, usually on their belt.  I do not have a problem with this but I am curious if that is actually legal in NJ.  Does anyone here know the answer to that question?

I do know that any of us can legally open carry whatever we want inside our own homes and within the boundaries of our property.  I also thought that business owner(s), but only the business owner(s), also have the right to open carry anywhere inside their place of business.  Yet I thought that only applied to the business owners, not employees, staff, or consultants.  Since it is so prevalent, I am probably misunderstanding NJ gun law.  I tried to find where in NJ Law this question is addressed and here is what I found: (I did a cut & paste from Section 2C:2C:39-6):
 

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

I understand that all employees of any NJ gun range have to undergo an in-depth state required application process.  There is a Federal law requiring all firearms Dealers, (must be over the age of 21) and their employees, (must be over the age of 18), must obtain and renew every 3 years, a retail license from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms (ATF), before they can engage in the retail sale of firearms in NJ.  The process involves submitting an application to the NJ State Police, specifically, the NJSP’s Firearms Investigation Unit, which determines if the applicant or employee meets the state’s requirements.  If acceptable, the application is then forwarded to a NJ Superior Court Judge in the same County as the place of business (gun range/retail store).  That Judge has the discretion to decide if the applicant, (owner and/or employee), meets the standards and qualifications established by the NJSP and also could qualify to obtain a NJ Firearms Purchaser Identification Card (FPIC) and then either grants or denies the license.  So their having to go through this laborious process is why I am pretty confident that all of the staff at these gun ranges have been properly vetted and are more sane and safe with guns than many other NJ residents.

 

Does anyone on NJGF know where NJ law clearly states that this is legal or is the ambiguity of the law such that it just an accepted interpretation allowing employees to open carry?  Please help clarify this for me.

[Blacksmythe 71]

So then I guess when I take classes I'm breaking the law. I say fuck it. Why open a can of worms.

[PK90 3,570]

AFAIK, NJ gun range employees are covered under subsection f, as is everyone else. NJ gun retail employees are not covered. 

[bdhszy1 18]

 I could be wrong, but I think you are looking at this backwards. Everyone is "allowed" to carry at a range, why else would you go there? I think it is the ranges themselves that restrict you from carrying anywhere but the range itself. But like I said, I could be wrong, just ask my wife.

[Vlad G 345]

Place of business is a legal term:

 

PLACE OF BUSINESS. The place where a man usually transacts his affairs or business. When a man keeps a store, shop, counting room or office, independently and distinctly from all other persons, that is deemed his place of business 3 and when he usually transacts his business at the counting house, office, and the like, occupied and used by another, that will also be considered his place of business, if he has no independent place of his own. But when he has no particular right to use a place for such private purpose, as in an insurance office, in exchange room, banking room, a post office, and the like, where persons generally resort, these will not be considered as the party's place of business, although he may occasionally or transiently transact business there.

 

You don't need to own it or be the business owner, your place of business is where you work, or legally registered as the address of the business.

[maintenanceguy 510]

AFAIK, NJ gun range employees are covered under subsection f, as is everyone else. NJ gun retail employees are not covered. 

 

I assumed the "pink card" allowed store employees to handle (possess) firearms at the shop and that was how it was covered.

[PK90 3,570]

I assumed the "pink card" allowed store employees to handle (possess) firearms at the shop and that was how it was covered.

Nope.

 

Just like AK Type Rifles for sale, it is overlooked on purpose.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

 

 

[Howard 538]

I think anyone can open carry at the range, but they typically restrict that to the actual range floor.  I know at indoor USPSA and IDPA matches all the shooters routinely open carry although all guns are unloaded except at the firing line.

[AVB-AMG 530]

I think anyone can open carry at the range, but they typically restrict that to the actual range floor.  I know at indoor USPSA and IDPA matches all the shooters routinely open carry although all guns are unloaded except at the firing line.

 

Howard:

 

Interesting...   Good point.  

So is everyone who is open carrying at these ranges carrying a pistol that is unloaded?  

I have seen magazines inserted into their pistols so are they empty or not?  Just curious....

 

Just to be clear, here is a "cut & paste" from RTSP's web site from their section on Range Rules for the general public as well as members.  

So I assume this does not apply to the range staff:

 

"5. No loaded firearms are to enter or exit the building.  All magazines and speed loaders must be unloaded.  Loaded firearms at firing line only.  No firearms are permitted in the store area without being in a locked container."

 

Also, interestingly, here is a "cut & paste" from the Range Rules section from the web site for Gun For Hire/Woodland Park Range:

 

"Wearing or drawing from a holster is only permitted for law enforcement, military , Gun For Hire, LLC and Woodland Park Range, LLC approved civilians who have passed a holster draw class and an efficiency test with a Gun For Hire, LLC or Woodland Park Range, LLC Range Safety Officer (RSO)."

[Howard 538]

Howard:

 

Interesting...   Good point.  

So is everyone who is open carrying at these ranges carrying a pistol that is unloaded?  

I have seen magazines inserted into their pistols so are they empty or not?  Just curious....

No magazines are allowed in guns at any USPSA or IDPA match except at the instruction of the RO/SO by the make ready command (or load and make ready command).  Otherwise when not at the firing line all guns have an empty magwell.

[AverageJoe 95]

Howard:

 

Interesting...   Good point.  

So is everyone who is open carrying at these ranges carrying a pistol that is unloaded?  

I have seen magazines inserted into their pistols so are they empty or not?  Just curious....

No, the're def loaded lol. We also have to qualify periodically in order to carry as well.

[Howard 538]

No, the're def loaded lol. We also have to qualify in order to carry as well.

Isn't the qualify a range rule versus state law?

[AVB-AMG 530]

AverageJoe:

 

Thanks...  

can you explain further what you need to do to qualify, if anything, in addition to what I originally wrote as my understanding in my first post on this thread?  (Also, see what I wrote in my post #9 from the GFH/Woodland Park Range.)  

Does RTSP have some form of similar qualification process?

[PK90 3,570]

NJ law does not distinguish between loaded or unloaded regarding carrying a handgun. As stated, anyone can carry a handgun at a recognized gun range per law. There is no exemption for gun shop employees to carry. Perhaps you are seeing off duty LEOs or other exempted people, but more likely not.

 

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

 

[AverageJoe 95]

AverageJoe:

 

Thanks...  

can you explain further what you need to do to qualify, if anything, in addition to what I originally wrote as my understanding in my first post on this thread?  (Also, see what I wrote in my post #9 from the GFH/Woodland Park Range.)  

Does RTSP have some form of similar qualification process?

We have to go thru the same type of qualifications as LEO's do. Retention, strong hand, weak hand, various round bursts, etc, all at different distances. As for GFH I cannot comment but that looks like its their guidelines for regular people coming in and out to use the range, with employees and LEO(retired/active) exempt. 

[Vlad G 345]

 There is no exemption for gun shop employees to carry.

 

What do you base that on? Place of business is not a language that applies exclusively to the owner of a locale as far as I can tell. Assuming the owner allowed it I don't see why sub shop employee couldn't legally carry on the premises, never mind someone working in a gun shop.

[Howard 538]

What do you base that on? Place of business is not a language that applies exclusively to the owner of a locale as far as I can tell. Assuming the owner allowed it I don't see why sub shop employee couldn't legally carry on the premises, never mind someone working in a gun shop.

Really?  I always thought place of business was defined as a business that you own - but that could be wrong as I was told that by a lawyer

[Scorpio64 5,154]

For the sake of argument, lets assume that employees are not covered under some loophole.  The best loop hole I'd conjure is to make the employee a shareholder.

[AVB-AMG 530]

Really?  I always thought place of business was defined as a business that you own - but that could be wrong as I was told that by a lawyer

 

That is also what I thought...  As explained to a number of us by a local attorney who is conversant in NJ gun law, at an evening seminar with the topic of NJ Gun Law, held this past December at RTSP.

[Howard 538]

For the sake of argument, lets assume that employees are not covered under some loophole.  The best loop hole I'd conjure is to make the employee a shareholder.

Don't think shareholder would cut it, otherwise I could carry at Walmart as I own stock in the company.  I think you have to be the controlling shareholder to be considered the actual owner under the law.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

Don't think shareholder would cut it, otherwise I could carry at Walmart as I own stock in the company.  I think you have to be the controlling shareholder to be considered the actual owner under the law.

Not the same kind of shareholder.  WM is a public company, most ranges are private.  Your WM shares are common shares, employee owned shares are ESOP.  Respectively, the main distinction is investment vs actual ownership.

[bdhszy1 18]

 What am I missing here? If it is legal for you or me to go to RTSP or any other range and carry and shoot a firearm in their building, why can't the employees do the same? the only difference is you can carry only on the firing line, they can carry anywhere. I think this is their rule having nothing to do with the state. If they are breaking the law carrying in the building, than so are you. That's just logic, but that never stood in the way of a New Jersey law.

[xXxplosive 824]

So wait......are you saying that store employees are carrying MT on their hips......if so, for what reason...a macho thing or just looking to be a target should a problem arise.

[Vlad G 345]

Really?  I always thought place of business was defined as a business that you own - but that could be wrong as I was told that by a lawyer

 

Find me that definition. Every definition of place of business that I find refers to the business entity operating out of that location, not the ownership thereof. As far as I can tell when you boil down the various definitions of it it boils down to the primary place out of which a business operates.

[AVB-AMG 530]

 What am I missing here? If it is legal for you or me to go to RTSP or any other range and carry and shoot a firearm in their building, why can't the employees do the same? the only difference is you can carry only on the firing line, they can carry anywhere. I think this is their rule having nothing to do with the state. If they are breaking the law carrying in the building, than so are you. That's just logic, but that never stood in the way of a New Jersey law.

 bdhszy1:

 

You are making some broad assumptions about the distinctions between the public users of the range and the range employees.  

So here is what you are missing based on the wording of RTSP's stated range rules for anyone using its range, other than employees:  

Note: other gun ranges have similar rules.

(I did a "cut & paste" from the RTSP web site under their Range Rules section):

 

5. No loaded firearms are to enter or exit the building.  All magazines and speed loaders must be unloaded.  Loaded firearms at firing line only.  No firearms are permitted in the store area without being in a locked container.

 

12. Wearing or drawing from a holster is only permitted for law enforcement, military and RTSP approved civilians who have passed an efficiency test with an RTSP representative/RSO.

 

14. All firearms must arrive and leave the range in a case.  No uncased firearms may leave the shooting booth area.

[NJGF 375]

2C:58-2  Retailing of firearms; licensing of dealers and their employees.

2C:58-2. a. Licensing of retail dealers and their employees.  No retail dealer of firearms nor any employee of a retail dealer shall sell or expose for sale, or possess with the intent of selling, any firearm unless licensed to do so as hereinafter provided.  The superintendent shall prescribe standards and qualifications for retail dealers of firearms and their employees for the protection of the public safety, health and welfare.

Applications shall be made in the form prescribed by the superintendent, accompanied by a fee of $50 payable to the superintendent, and shall be made to a judge of the Superior Court in the county where the applicant maintains his place of business. The judge shall grant a license to an applicant if he finds that the applicant meets the standards and qualifications established by the superintendent and that the applicant can be permitted to engage in business as a retail dealer of firearms or employee thereof without any danger to the public safety, health and welfare.  Each license shall be valid for a period of three years from the date of issuance, and shall authorize the holder to sell firearms at retail in a specified municipality.

In addition, every retail dealer shall pay a fee of $5 for each employee actively engaged in the sale or purchase of firearms. The superintendent shall issue a license for each employee for whom said fee has been paid, which license shall be valid for so long as the employee remains in the employ of said retail dealer.

[PK90 3,570]

Note the differences:

1. Place of business is not place of employment. I believe that there is case law regarding this.

2. Gun range is not a gun store. If the store does not have a range, there is no exemption to carry.

 

This is NJ law. Private places may have their own more restrictive rules.

[PK90 3,570]

As a FYI for the above post, "qualifications" does not mean "firearm qualifications". It means to be qualified, ie. not a prohibited person.

[NJGF 375]

S.P. 641 Application For Employee Of Firearms Dealer License

http://www.njsp.org/firearms/pdf/sp-641.pdf

[mipafox 438]

Place of business is a legal term:

 

PLACE OF BUSINESS. The place where a man usually transacts his affairs or business. When a man keeps a store, shop, counting room or office, independently and distinctly from all other persons, that is deemed his place of business 3 and when he usually transacts his business at the counting house, office, and the like, occupied and used by another, that will also be considered his place of business, if he has no independent place of his own. But when he has no particular right to use a place for such private purpose, as in an insurance office, in exchange room, banking room, a post office, and the like, where persons generally resort, these will not be considered as the party's place of business, although he may occasionally or transiently transact business there.

 

You don't need to own it or be the business owner, your place of business is where you work, or legally registered as the address of the business.

"his place of business" has been adjudicated numerous times with respect to firearm possession. I posted several examples from Jersey and other states about 6 months ago. It means a substantial proprietary ownership. It's slightly vauge, but it sure as hell does not mean employees, and it doesn't even mean MANAGERS specifically, as that has been adjudicated. Not going to search all that stuff again, but you are free to. There is case law from Jersey, NY, PA, and MD, although I think it may be defined in MD statute. Most of the state courts refered to one another, which is why I listed four.