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Is it Legal in NJ for Gun Range/Store Employees to Open Carry?

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 bdhszy1:

 

You are making some broad assumptions about the distinctions between the public users of the range and the range employees.  

So here is what you are missing based on the wording of RTSP's stated range rules:  

Note: other gun ranges have similar rules.

(I did a "cut & paste" from the RTSP web site under their Range Rules section):

 

5. No loaded firearms are to enter or exit the building.  All magazines and speed loaders must be unloaded.  Loaded firearms at firing line only.  No firearms are permitted in the store area without being in a locked container.

 

12. Wearing or drawing from a holster is only permitted for law enforcement, military and RTSP approved civilians who have passed an efficiency test with an RTSP representative/RSO.

 

14. All firearms must arrive and leave the range in a case.  No uncased firearms may leave the shooting booth area.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but you asked the question whether it's legal per NJ state law for range employees to carry, but you're responding to bdjszy1's comment with RTSP rules. RTSP can of course set rules more strict than NJ state law. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect the rules were made with the idea that no one can legally walk into the store while carrying a loaded firearm and would be different if NJ were a free state. 

 

A couple years back I made the suggestion at GFH that I'd prefer if their range officers were armed. When I'm shooting in a port, I'm in my own little world. My view is obstructed by the port walls and the sound of gunfire is of course not unusual. I'd feel a lot better if there if the ROs were armed while watching my back.

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 bdhszy1:

 

You are making some broad assumptions about the distinctions between the public users of the range and the range employees.  

So here is what you are missing based on the wording of RTSP's stated range rules:  

Note: other gun ranges have similar rules.

(I did a "cut & paste" from the RTSP web site under their Range Rules section):

 

5. No loaded firearms are to enter or exit the building.  All magazines and speed loaders must be unloaded.  Loaded firearms at firing line only.  No firearms are permitted in the store area without being in a locked container.

 

12. Wearing or drawing from a holster is only permitted for law enforcement, military and RTSP approved civilians who have passed an efficiency test with an RTSP representative/RSO.

 

14. All firearms must arrive and leave the range in a case.  No uncased firearms may leave the shooting booth area.

Actually #5 is not correct when it comes to competitions such as USPSA, IDPA, etc.  Participants are allowed to roam the facility with unloaded holstered guns even in the store area.  Loaded magazines are allowed on the belt as well.

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Really?  I always thought place of business was defined as a business that you own - but that could be wrong as I was told that by a lawyer :)

 

There are at least two NJ supreme court cases that have ruled in this manner. A business owner is allowed to carry on the premises. Employees are not, and have been convicted for doing so. The courts were very clear that only a business owner is permitted, and they specifically did not want to give business owners the power to authorize employees to carry for any reason.

 

I totally support the right of anyone to carry at their place of business, but I hope that no one does without a significant ownership stake. The police might not care day to day, but if a self defense scenario occurs my money would be on the non-owner being charged and convicted.

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There are at least two NJ supreme court cases that have ruled in this manner. A business owner is allowed to carry on the premises. Employees are not, and have been convicted for doing so. The courts were very clear that only a business owner is permitted, and they specifically did not want to give business owners the power to authorize employees to carry for any reason.

 

I totally support the right of anyone to carry at their place of business, but I hope that no one does without a significant ownership stake. The police might not care day to day, but if a self defense scenario occurs my money would be on the non-owner being charged and convicted.

If I own the business and I authorize my employees to carry that should be enough.

 

NJ politicians know better than us citizens though.

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So wait......are you saying that store employees are carrying MT on their hips......if so, for what reason...a macho thing or just looking to be a target should a problem arise.

 

 

 



So wait......are you saying that store employees are carrying in the store  MT.

What are we trying to get at here? 

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Who would condone that, store management and for what purpose ?

 

This...

http://www.fox8live.com/story/31040532/2-dead-2-wounded-after-shootout-at-gun-shop?sf19517747=1

So a shop owner and his son was killed by a customer. Also, that happened in MS which might have different laws, this is NJ. 

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Good Morning Gents.

 

 Happy Kaboom!

 

i inquired about this subject and got this reply. I will not say who said it but they are an authority when it comes to NJ gun law.

 

"NJSA 2C:39-e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.
 
The issue becomes, can you allow another "non owner" to possess and carry on your property.  This is a question in dispute because some lawyers would say I can grant someone permission on my own property to carry, however there is no 'exception' written into the law.  Even Evan Nappen states in his 2014 New Jersey Gun Law book that there is no exception to the law. This then falls back on the property owner, and their willingness to accept liability for the actions of allowing an unlicensed individual to 'carry' on his property.  A liability I think few would like to have.  Make all of your employees part owners of the business, then they would meet the standard, or hire retired police.
 
A pink card is only a license to sell and transport firearms for a licensed dealer.
 "

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So a shop owner and his son was killed by a customer. Also, that happened in MS which might have different laws, this is NJ. 

 

Actually it was a shootout in a gun shop......it's why I asked if the employees are carrying MT and/or just a show of force.

 

IMO, it's as much a macho thing.....when I worked in a gun shop years ago the owners carried concealed.......no one wanted to be open carrying.

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remixer said:

 

i inquired about this subject and got this reply. I will not say who said it but they are an authority when it comes to NJ gun law.

 

"NJSA 2C:39-e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.
 
The issue becomes, can you allow another "non owner" to possess and carry on your property.  This is a question in dispute because some lawyers would say I can grant someone permission on my own property to carry, however there is no 'exception' written into the law.  Even Evan Nappen states in his 2014 New Jersey Gun Law book that there is no exception to the law. This then falls back on the property owner, and their willingness to accept liability for the actions of allowing an unlicensed individual to 'carry' on his property.  A liability I think few would like to have.  Make all of your employees part owners of the business, then they would meet the standard, or hire retired police.
 
A pink card is only a license to sell and transport firearms for a licensed dealer.

 "

 

Thanks remixer:

 

That is essentially what I thought may be the case.....

 

AVB-AMG

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So, I'm curious about this now.  I don't own handguns but I'm interested to find out if a workaround could be accomplished.  Let's say I have a service based business where I have several customers and I travel to the customer.  The law seems to indicate I cannot carry there because it's not my business or building im servicing.  So, let's say I work out a deal with my customer where I lease (or sublet) a room in their building to store supplies and do a bit of paperwork.  Now, it becomes "my place of business".  I wonder if in this situation I could carry as long as there is nothing in the lease to disallow it.

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So, I'm curious about this now.  I don't own handguns but I'm interested to find out if a workaround could be accomplished.  Let's say I have a service based business where I have several customers and I travel to the customer.  The law seems to indicate I cannot carry there because it's not my business or building im servicing.  So, let's say I work out a deal with my customer where I lease (or sublet) a room in their building to store supplies and do a bit of paperwork.  Now, it becomes "my place of business".  I wonder if in this situation I could carry as long as there is nothing in the lease to disallow it.

Sure. You can carry in your little cubicle. Make sure you install a mirror and practice quick draws.

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So, I'm curious about this now.  I don't own handguns but I'm interested to find out if a workaround could be accomplished.  Let's say I have a service based business where I have several customers and I travel to the customer.  The law seems to indicate I cannot carry there because it's not my business or building im servicing.  So, let's say I work out a deal with my customer where I lease (or sublet) a room in their building to store supplies and do a bit of paperwork.  Now, it becomes "my place of business".  I wonder if in this situation I could carry as long as there is nothing in the lease to disallow it.

Will all of your "work" be done inside the room you rent/lease?  If so, IMHO you'd be golden!  Now if you have to go pee in a common area restroom, you would have to disarm yourself.  If you have to service another room in the same building (which you don't rent or lease), you first must disarm yourself.  Much the same as a Condo owner can't strap-on a sidearm and casually jaunt between buildings, rec center and pool-house, so too can't you have total freedom to all of the public areas...........  So you'd still be a prisoner of "Justifiable Need"

 

A+ for effort though!

 

Dave Rosenthal, Vice President

Coalition of New Jersey Firearm Owners

http://www.JustifiableNeed.com

http://www.cnjfo.com  

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Will all of your "work" be done inside the room you rent/lease?  If so, IMHO you'd be golden!  Now if you have to go pee in a common area restroom, you would have to disarm yourself.  If you have to service another room in the same building (which you don't rent or lease), you first must disarm yourself.  Much the same as a Condo owner can't strap-on a sidearm and casually jaunt between buildings, rec center and pool-house, so too can't you have total freedom to all of the public areas...........  So you'd still be a prisoner of "Justifiable Need"

 

A+ for effort though!

 

Dave Rosenthal, Vice President

Coalition of New Jersey Firearm Owners

http://www.JustifiableNeed.com

http://www.cnjfo.com

 

Yes common areas would remain off limits....  In my building i can carry in my office but G-D FORBID i need to go to the bathroom.. i would have to disarm.

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Actually it was a shootout in a gun shop......it's why I asked if the employees are carrying MT and/or just a show of force.

 

IMO, it's as much a macho thing.....when I worked in a gun shop years ago the owners carried concealed.......no one wanted to be open carrying.

Ok I have to ask, what in the world is "MT"? lol

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NJ law does not distinguish between loaded or unloaded regarding carrying a handgun. As stated, anyone can carry a handgun at a recognized gun range per law. There is no exemption for gun shop employees to carry. Perhaps you are seeing off duty LEOs or other exempted people, but more likely not. Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk.

 

 

what is the difference from me holding a gun I might buy at a gun shop, and an employee holding a gun they own at a gun shop.. 

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what is the difference from me holding a gun I might buy at a gun shop, and an employee holding a gun they own at a gun shop.. 

 

I think we can discuss "Holding vs Carrying" and find a distinct difference. 

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