Tom C 0 Posted January 25, 2016 I'm a 63 year old beginner and just recently got an H&K VP9 which I've fired several times now. I've never owned or shot a handgun prior. Each time I've fired the gun, my groupings have all been very good, generally within the diameter of a clenched fist. But my hits are mostly several inches or more outside the center at 7 and 8 o'clock. My targets have been set at 5, 6, and 7 yards. The RSO watched me and advised that I'm not exhaling at the right time and I'm jerking the trigger. He also thinks I'm anticipating the bang and reacting to it as I'm pulling the trigger. I've been practicing my technique by dry firing the gun at home as often as possible. Am I doing any damage to the weapon? Any other tips and advice? Thanks in advance Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted January 25, 2016 1st, Confirm with another ( experienced ) shooter that it's not the gun itself shooting low left. The sights MAY need to be adjusted. Now, once we confirm it is you and not the gun - Low left shooting is typically a sign of poor weak hand grip or jerking the trigger. Make sure you have a good strong ( PROPER ) weak hand grip and have the proper amount of trigger finger in there. Work on learning the correct fundamentals and go from there. Dryfire will not hurt the gun, Plenty of people dryfire many thousands of times with no ill effects. If you are concerned - it's always a good practice to dryfire on a dummy round or snap cap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AverageJoe 95 Posted January 25, 2016 When practicing (dry fire), put an empty case on top at the end of the slide(open mouth down), take your stance and fire. See if anything happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted January 25, 2016 When practicing (dry fire), put an empty case on top at the end of the slide(open mouth down), take your stance and fire. See if anything happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
T Bill 649 Posted January 25, 2016 http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=1028 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted January 25, 2016 Placing the coin on edge is a bit extreme (you'll notice he didn't bring the gun up to firing position). BTW, this only works with a revolver. For a gun with a slide, have a friend load your mag and have them insert a snap cap randomly - any flinch (anticipation of recoil) will be readily apparent when the gun goes click instead of bang. Adios, Pizza Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted January 25, 2016 I've found dry-firing at home to be unsatisfying. Like kissing your sister. My sister, that is. I know people with 1000x more experience than me recommend it, but without the bang and the recoil you're just teaching yourself to pull a lever very calmly and deliberately. Coin or no coin. Besides you need help for it to work with SAO or SA/DA handguns. As I've posted many times I'm mostly a revolver guy. If I'm not happy with my groups of .38 sp or .357 I'll shoot another couple of boxes with 2-3 rounds missing in each cylinder. This way I don't know what's next and I can, to the best of my abilities, better observe any flinching or bad technique. This has worked great for me. I'm already a triple world champion in IDPA, FDA, USDA, FDR, FBI and LBJ. As mentioned even with DA/SA pistols you're out of luck unless you have someone load four to six snap caps for you. Even then you have to yank on the slide when you hit a dud, pick up the snap cap (they're expensive). Unsatisfying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted January 26, 2016 Interesting, did not know there was shooting at the FDA. LBJ is dead, and what is USDA - US dairy Association Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted January 26, 2016 Tom, welcome and congrats on your first purchase. I am a big fan of this drill for dry fire training: http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill I like to combine this with some live fire training as well and make all of my shooters do this drill as the first course of fire of the day prior to training. Make sure you have some initial marksmanship training of the basics/fundamentals under the watchful eye of a reputable trainer or competent friend before you practice with dry fire. You don't want to practice bad form or the wrong technique and commit it to procedural memory. Also, with most semi-auto pistols (especially single action only and striker fired guns) make sure that the racking of the slide in order to reset the trigger is a deliberate and seperate act from the sight alignment and trigger pull. Pause after you press the trigger and hold the sights still for a second or two, keeping the trigger pinned to the rear. Rack the slide then aim in, easing the trigger to reset before refining the sight picture and starting your next press. Do not rush to set the dril up again.You don't want to train the manipulation of the pistol into the firing drill. Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted January 26, 2016 "The gunshot holds no fear. In fact it's the sound that sets you free." Joyhn W. Creasy Man On Fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted January 26, 2016 I've found dry-firing at home to be unsatisfying. I would have agreed with this in the past, but I must say that something like a SIRT trainer or laser cartridges can make dry-firing a lot more fun and useful. Unfortunately for Newtonian and other revolver guys, the SIRT is a replica of a Glock 17, so it's probably not too helpful. But for us Glock and other semiauto guys, it can greatly enhance the value of home practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meissama 1 Posted January 26, 2016 Only time dry firing could cause ill for your weapons is if it's a rim fire gun or a very old weapon. I would say pre-60s. Rim fire u can peen the chamber causing rounds to not chamber or eject properly or you could damage the firing pin. Also Pre-60s and beyond firearms the metallurgy wasn't what it is today and thus dry firing "could" damage components but using a dummy round will prevent most potential danger. I dry fire my cz 75 all the time. You wouldn't notice it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted January 26, 2016 Only time dry firing could cause ill for your weapons is if it's a rim fire gun or a very old weapon. I would say pre-60s. Rim fire u can peen the chamber causing rounds to not chamber or eject properly or you could damage the firing pin. Also Pre-60s and beyond firearms the metallurgy wasn't what it is today and thus dry firing "could" damage components but using a dummy round will prevent most potential danger. I dry fire my cz 75 all the time. You wouldn't notice it. So you shouldn't dry fire a .22 pistol at all, even with snap caps? Not that I ever tried, just asking. I did used to dry fire my .22 revolver all the time using spent casings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NJGF 375 Posted January 26, 2016 So you shouldn't dry fire a .22 pistol at all, even with snap caps? Not that I ever tried, just asking. The .22LR snap caps I have seen are softer plastic. After using for awhile they break and need to be replaced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekend_junkie 129 Posted January 28, 2016 The .22LR snap caps I have seen are softer plastic. After using for awhile they break and need to be replaced.I use yellow wall anchors for .22 snap caps. They last quite a while and are only $2 for 100. Metal snap caps for .22 are a bit of a misnomer. They deform after you dry fire on them and eventually get stuck in the chamber. Dry firing on spend brass would have the same problem, so be cautious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InFamous 311 Posted January 28, 2016 The most famous firearm YouTube video personality is hickok45 and he dry fires all the time. Is anyone saying what he is doing is wrong? Just wondering... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted January 28, 2016 If you find dryfire unsatisfying your are probably doing it wrong. The purpose of dry fire is not necessarily to be "fun", but to get gooder at things. If you practice the right things, and you measure your performance and you see improvement, suddenly things get a lot more satisfying. It is like as football player working out at the gym, it isn't football, and it is work, but the right workouts make him a better player. If you treat shooting as sport, then you have to practice things outside the sporting events to get better. If you treat it as a occasional relaxing with friends thing, then sure, dry fire is not "fun". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NJGF 375 Posted January 28, 2016 The most famous firearm YouTube video personality is hickok45 and he dry fires all the time. Is anyone saying what he is doing is wrong? Just wondering... Check out Hickok45 FAQ - 21 (Dry Firing) at: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alec.mc 180 Posted January 28, 2016 If you find dryfire unsatisfying your are probably doing it wrong. The purpose of dry fire is not necessarily to be "fun", but to get gooder at things. If you practice the right things, and you measure your performance and you see improvement, suddenly things get a lot more satisfying. It is like as football player working out at the gym, it isn't football, and it is work, but the right workouts make him a better player. If you treat shooting as sport, then you have to practice things outside the sporting events to get better. If you treat it as a occasional relaxing with friends thing, then sure, dry fire is not "fun". Well said, from a shooting competition stand point - I do alot of dry-fire. With a 1 year old running around and both the wife and I working full time jobs on opposite schedules it doesn't leave much room for live-fire practice. Needing to keep up with my gun handling, reloads and fundamentals can all be learned in dryfire. ( and it's cheaper ! save dem bullets ! ) One of the worlds best competition shooters has a line of pretty excellent books and dvds about dry fire and dryfire drills. http://benstoegerproshop.com/books-dvds/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted January 28, 2016 If you find dryfire unsatisfying your are probably doing it wrong. The purpose of dry fire is not necessarily to be "fun", but to get gooder at things. If you practice the right things, and you measure your performance and you see improvement, suddenly things get a lot more satisfying. It is like as football player working out at the gym, it isn't football, and it is work, but the right workouts make him a better player. If you treat shooting as sport, then you have to practice things outside the sporting events to get better. If you treat it as a occasional relaxing with friends thing, then sure, dry fire is not "fun". I agree and I used to dry fire right here from this very chair. I still do occasionally. I'm not saying there's nothing to be gained, just that if you don't feel the recoil and hear the bang you're practicing something much less disturbing to the senses than shooting. It's almost like training for a marathon by watching YouTube videos of other people running, or by running half a mile a day. I'm surprised nobody's invented a dry-fire toy with an adjustable trigger pull. Would be 95% as useful as holding your actual firearm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad G 345 Posted January 29, 2016 If you dry fired while sitting, you are also probably doing it wrong, but thats just my opinion. If I don't break into a sweat in 10min I know I'm slacking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted January 29, 2016 Dry fire isn't about conditioning the senses for the blast and recoil of a gunshot. It is designed to build consistancy (the key to accuracy) and procedural memory. It's primarily about practicing everything that happens immediately prior to breaking the shot: Stance Grip Draw Sight alignment Sight picture Placing finger in the trigger Trigger prep Trigger squeeze And a couple things that happen immediately post recoil: Follow through Driving the muzzle Bolstering You can so use to to train manipulations, building stable shooting positions, and working out your gear. There is a lot more to it than that, but that's the essence of it in my opinion. Dry fire can be boring, but if you only practice what is fun/what you are good at, you will never improve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
67gtonut 847 Posted January 29, 2016 I also po po dry firing.... found it boring..... Then an instructor put me through a dry fire routine.... and then had me do a round of live fire.... and I was hooked. I used to have the dreaded low/left ..... now that I dry fire at every range session. It is gone....... I am now a true believer.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtonian 453 Posted January 29, 2016 I also po po dry firing.... found it boring..... Then an instructor put me through a dry fire routine.... and then had me do a round of live fire.... and I was hooked. I used to have the dreaded low/left ..... now that I dry fire at every range session. It is gone....... I am now a true believer.... Please explain. I'm open-minded about this. I like the idea of dry fire followed by live rounds. That's what I try to simulate by keeping a few chambers empty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n4p226r 105 Posted January 29, 2016 The most famous firearm YouTube video personality is hickok45 and he dry fires all the time. Is anyone saying what he is doing is wrong? Just wondering... well he does just randomly point down range and pull the trigger, creating one weird training scar. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n4p226r 105 Posted January 29, 2016 Please explain. I'm open-minded about this. I like the idea of dry fire followed by live rounds. That's what I try to simulate by keeping a few chambers empty. I've taken one class, and you need a 2nd person to help with this drill. but at a short distance (5 yards say) put a 3x5 index card on the target. that is your target. if you are good, cut it in half. you get the idea. make sure your gun is unloaded with no magazine have your partner make sure your gun is unloaded with no magazine both make sure it is unloaded again have your partner put an empty case on the top of your front sight while you have a good sight picture pull the trigger don't let the casing fall keep your sight picture have them cycle the slide and put the casing back on top repeat 5x only after you get 5 in a row do you get 5 live rounds. they should all be touching repeat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sof 0 Posted January 29, 2016 Regarding the part of your OP where you ask if dry firing can damage the gun, I made several Cajun Gun Works modifications to my CZ SP-01, and he recommended that you do not dry fire after having done so. As I feel lots of dry firing is the single thing that tames my bad habit of flinching, and I like to do so with each of my pistols except the 22, I found a size of o-ring that stays in place when I cycle the slide, and put it right around where the hammer strikes the rear of the pin. No problems yet with many, many dry fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
67gtonut 847 Posted January 30, 2016 Please explain. I'm open-minded about this. I like the idea of dry fire followed by live rounds. That's what I try to simulate by keeping a few chambers empty. The empty chamber training is great for over coming the dreaded " flinch" ..... This is more about trigger control. Making every pull on the trigger constant and identical ..... some will call it muscle memory. Which I guess we could call it that.... The problem with dry firing at home is that there is no instant gratification ..... seems like a mindless act with no proof it works.... We as humans, need to see proof quickly to see if something we are doing is making any improvement .... This is what I learned to do.... At the Range: Pistol empty.... Do 5 dry fire drills , concentrating on front sight and making sure it remains still (calm) on each trigger pull..... IMMEDIATELY insert mag with 5 rounds and proceed to fire .... You should be pleasantly surprised of how well your shot placement will look..... Repeat as much you feel up for..... I start EVERY range session with this exercise ...... IF allowed at your range..... you can add a holster draw to this exercise. This will not only reinforce your trigger discipline, but add to it, quicker sight acquisition.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NJGF 375 Posted January 30, 2016 The problem with dry firing at home is that there is no instant gratification ..... seems like a mindless act with no proof it works.... We as humans, need to see proof quickly to see if something we are doing is making any improvement .... I like using the LaserLyte cartridges with their Reaction Tyme targets. You can dry fire and see if you are hitting the target. As you get better you can move the target farther away. They come with two targets which you can separate and alternate targets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites