Apple fighting the Government on creating a backdoor for phones.

[mikeyjones 88]

Here are the FACTS of this situation to just keep this from getting out of hand. DOJ never used the term "backdoor". Also fact when DOJ saw the media calling it an unlimited backdoor they publicly said "we only asked Apple to help us get into this ONE phone". The hysteria of the authoriites demanding a device to remotely be able to get into any phone on command was created in social media

 

So here is the DOJ requesting the safe crackers (Apple) can you open this safe without damaging the contents.

If you guys still want to use your brain power discussing an unlimited back door then go ahead but you're discussing something Tim cook and media extrapolated.

 

The DOJ statement stands on its own (of course if you think their statenents are bullshit that's anoyher topic altogether but the topic of the thread was backdoor and that's not what they demanded)

 

If your daughter was raped by a scumbag and he videotaped taped it. And the only way to prove him guilty was to get that video and the judge said "do you want us to ask Apple to unlock the phone?" You would say yes right? You wouldn't tell tell them "please tell them to create a tool so that all phones can be unlocked". You would say "please just unlock this one phone". According to the DOJ request this is what they asked Apple to do.

Except that the only way to crack said safe is to redesign it completely. Thereby rendering all similar safes insecure.

 

And to answer your question is that I value citizens privacy over safety. So even if it was my daughter, I'd hope the prosecutor had other means to get a conviction.

 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

[pasu0115 200]

Ok, all you Apple fanboys, a few things about Apple:

 

1. Much of the upper management of Apple are very liberal. Do some research and see what liberal/socialist causes they have donated money to.

 

2. Apple is a huge user of cheap labor brought in on visas from outside the US. So, you are worried about the US government obtaining access to the phones of criminals? I wouldn't be surprised if China, Russia, India, Pakistan and a host of other countries are either working on, or already have a way to tap into your beloved iPhone, all courtesy of their foreign worker/spies that Apple has hired.

 

Have a nice day!

[mikeyjones 88]

Ok, all you Apple fanboys, a few things about Apple:

 

1. Much of the upper management of Apple are very liberal. Do some research and see what liberal/socialist causes they have donated money to.

 

2. Apple is a huge user of cheap labor brought in on visas from outside the US. So, you are worried about the US government obtaining access to the phones of criminals? I wouldn't be surprised if China, Russia, India, Pakistan and a host of other countries are either working on, or already have a way to tap into your beloved iPhone, all courtesy of their foreign worker/spies that Apple has hired.

 

Have a nice day!

Completely unrelated to the case at hand. Also doesn't matter that their ceo is gay. I'm siding with them on the privacy issue.

 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

[pasu0115 200]

Completely unrelated to the case at hand. Also doesn't matter that their ceo is gay. I'm siding with them on the privacy issue.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

I disagree. Apple will value the privacy of their terrorist and drug dealer customers, but, if the government wanted Apple to tell them which of their iPhone users visit njgunforum or another firearms related page, I think Apple would fall all over themselves to provide that information.

 

Also, you say you are worried about privacy, but have no problem with the Pakistanis, Chinese, Indians or other countries getting into your phone? Please explain?

[Howard 538]

Ok, all you Apple fanboys, a few things about Apple:

 

1. Much of the upper management of Apple are very liberal. Do some research and see what liberal/socialist causes they have donated money to.

 

2. Apple is a huge user of cheap labor brought in on visas from outside the US. So, you are worried about the US government obtaining access to the phones of criminals? I wouldn't be surprised if China, Russia, India, Pakistan and a host of other countries are either working on, or already have a way to tap into your beloved iPhone, all courtesy of their foreign worker/spies that Apple has hired.

 

Have a nice day!

Why does it matter that this is Apple or what you think of them or their management team?  This is a question of what rights the government should have to force a company or person to do something?  Do you really think the government should have the right to compel a company to incur expense and write code or build a product for them without compensation?  That is what they are telling Apple they must do.  Further, even if they can force Apple to do this it won't stop terrorists.  There are currently many programs out there that will encrypt data that can be run on iPhones and Droids that would take the government years to decrypt.  This is just another case of overreach by our incompetent government.  We all know secrets are not safe in the hands of this government.

[mikeyjones 88]

I disagree. Apple will value the privacy of their terrorist and drug dealer customers, but, if the government wanted Apple to tell them which of their iPhone users visit njgunforum or another firearms related page, I think Apple would fall all over themselves to provide that information.

 

Also, you say you are worried about privacy, but have no problem with the Pakistanis, Chinese, Indians or other countries getting into your phone? Please explain?

You're building a strawman argument. Chinese Pakistan etc have nothing to do with this. They are not in my phone no matter your paranoia. If my phone is encrypted and the US government can't access it, you better believe that neither can any of those nations.

 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

[Screwball 483]

Completely unrelated to the case at hand. Also doesn't matter that their ceo is gay. I'm siding with them on the privacy issue.

 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

I agree...

 

People are saying a lot of stupid stuff on the internet regarding this. "Give it to Apple, do what they need to do in secret, then turn over the data." Well, considering that info could incriminate other people, and be used in future prosecution, a chain of custody needs to be kept... or it is pointless. The two terrorists are dead, but if the FBI wants the info off this iPhone, they likely don't know for sure if anyone else was involved. It isn't like they know the players, and this iPhone has an encrypted message on where everyone is going to meet for the post-attack lunch. Trust me, if it were possible to do it without compromising every iPhone out there, of course I'd say do it. I'm sure Apple would, with no questions asked. But people seem to think that unlocking a phone is like breaking a padlock... not as simple and is not an isolated incident.

 

If this goes to trial, the defense to whoever was named on that iPhone will want to have all information on how it was hacked on the table (reasonable doubt that an Apple employee could have added a message in there or deleted another that exonerates the defendant). Apple can't just say no to something like that. This will either end in that backdoor being shown to the world or the info on that phone staying encrypted... anything else will either be illegal and/or pointless.

 

Moving from that, I support Apple's decision. My privacy and security is worth a lot to me. I've had information breached through three or four stores that I used a credit card at... but yet to have any of my info hacked off my iPhone. Do I have anything to hide? Not really, but I don't think that gives an ok for the government or any hacker to have a way in that Apple was forced to create. When people say it is something that cannot be undone, it applies perfectly to this situation. The atomic bomb was made for the best intentions... to stop a war, but look at all the BS that has gone on with that weapon system. Cold War, Iran, North Korea... any of which could have led/lead to a major loss of life. Is this as deadly? Not to anything but the security of at least half of the country.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I really don't see why they couldn't implement a hardwire technique. Physically removing the memory from the phone or something similar like jumping connections. No remote access means they would need the physical phone and have to take it apart.

 

I agree with Apples sentiments on the issue, but I also think there should be a way to access information without providing a backdoor for anyone to take advantage of.

[jackandjill 683]

The problem is, everyone who gets into power feels like they need to know EVERYTHING, ofcourse in the name of protecting the nation, security and other BS. 

 

Information is power and unlimited power corrupts. Simple. 

 

When it comes to privacy (and other individual rights such as 2A), I dont care liberal vs conservative or Dem vs Repub or Google vs Apple vs Microsoft. ANYTHING that lets ANYONE a blanket, indiscriminate access to personal information or curtails personal freedom is BAD THING.  There are no exceptions and no compromise is required. 

 

We have enough courts, judges, processes and means to handle SPECIFIC threats or individuals. 

[robot_hell 72]

I really don't see why they couldn't implement a hardwire technique. Physically removing the memory from the phone or something similar like jumping connections. No remote access means they would need the physical phone and have to take it apart.

 

I agree with Apples sentiments on the issue, but I also think there should be a way to access information without providing a backdoor for anyone to take advantage of.

For there to be a hardware-based bypass to encryption, at some point in the system there would need to be software logic that effectively checks if the bypass is present. That logic is what would be attacked remotely, not the encrypted data or even the keys themselves.

[PeteF 1,044]

So here is a hypothetical...

 

How many people would willingly buy a phone, at a discounted price, knowing that the government can have access to your phone, data, including ability to track you via GPS, access your camera and microphone? (or a hacker for that matter).

This is exactly my point when I said it would cost Apple billions in lost future business. Security is a major selling point of any electronic device / software. Loose that discriminator, loose a sale.

 

As to government reliability in protecting data, HAH!!!!

 

Email server in a bathroom handling Top secret info, hard drives containing info on nukes winding up in china, and lets not forget the hacking of OPM for info on people with clearances. Thank you US for putting a target on me and my family. Amazing how many friend requests I got from Chineese "business recruiters" after the hacking.

 

Trust in Government security? Zero

[raz-0 1,259]

I fully understand your point....however the actions of the actors in this event and the devices in question need to be decrypted and if apple can donit they should. They have a duty too provide material support in any way shape or form to see how wide this Web is.

 

Are there potential pitfalls to doing this? Yes however those pitfalls pale in comparison to what can be gained by doing thia

 

 

The thing is apple is designing things so that apple cannot decrypt data. The phrase you will see being bandied about is "zero knowledge encryption".  And the reality is that that is how it has to be for encryption to mean anything with regard to an individual. If apple holds the keys, apple can look at any of it. If The FBI hold the keys, the FBI can. If you really expect it to be able to work, you have to design the algorithm to only allow the owner to decrypt the data. Everything else is make believe and the make believe increases the risk that ANYONE can leverage that back door, key sharing process, etc. to compromise the devices nobody wants anyone looking at. 

 

This is no different than if someone wrote down their plans in their own coded language, you off them, and it's kind of hard to compel anyone to tell you what they mean. 

[Malsua 1,422]

Apple definitely needs to resist this.

 

The government may be asking for decrypted data but getting that data at the cost of breaking the encryption of every Iphone, everywhere is _not_ an acceptable trade off.

 

Furthermore, this is more than just about this phone.  This is about the FBI demanding to have backdoor access to everything, whenever it chooses. 

 

This is classic government overreach and should be resisted to the utmost.

 

The FBI is asking apple to write a firmware update that allows a brute-force attack to unlock the phone.

 

To accomplish this, there is a set of encryption keys that only Apple holds that allow the phone to accept a firmware update.  If the hardware does not see the right key, the firmware cannot be updated.  This is why the FBI cannot write it's own firmware and apply it to the phone.

 

I'll go as far as to say that if the government simply attempts to seize these firmware keys, Apple should have a destruct code in place that destroys these keys.  Yes, millions of phones will no longer be able to be updated.

 

It's that important.    The people's right to privacy exceeds the government's wants.  It's really that simple.

[Kevin125 4,772]

Perhaps Georgia Pacific should be forced to come up with a way to reconstitute burned paper.

 

If you ever wondered if the gov't felt threatened by the public having the power to operate without the oversight of the gov't... this incident should answer that question.

 

And Apple is right to refuse.  If there's a way to decrypt the data, let the gov't have at it.  Why should Apple be conscripted to do it for them?

[Maksim 1,504]

Perhaps Georgia Pacific should be forced to come up with a way to reconstitute burned paper.

 

If you ever wondered if the gov't felt threatened by the public having the power to operate without the oversight of the gov't... this incident should answer that question.

 

And Apple is right to refuse. If there's a way to decrypt the data, let the gov't have at it. Why should Apple be conscripted to do it for them?

Made me laugh on the paper line.

 

I appreciate the posts from our tech crowd.

 

I also want to thank the poster bringing up that Apple management is typically liberal.

 

So what does it say for conservatives when the liberals at apple care more about your privacy than the majority of our conservative candidates who are screaming for apples head to get them to comply.

 

The gop is all for rights, except for privacy under the notion of national security, at which point the neocon gene kicks in.

 

I don't think politics matters here one bit, Apple is standing up for their business and as a result, privacy rights for all Americans.

 

Btw, find me a phone that is made in the United States. Lol

 

My iPhone is Chinese and my blackberry devices are all Mexican.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[[email protected] 57]

im kinda shocked the government doesn't already have all this data in Utah anyway

 

Thats what i was saying too

[jackandjill 683]

.....

 

So what does it say for conservatives when the liberals at apple care more about your privacy than the majority of our conservative candidates who are screaming for apples head to get them to comply.

 

The gop is all for rights, except for privacy under the notion of national security, at which point the neocon gene kicks in.

 

I don't think politics matters here one bit, Apple is standing up for their business and as a result, privacy rights for all Americans.

 

.....

Apple (and Google, and Microsoft, and....) want to appear to care about your privacy.  Just the same way most of GOP want to appear to care about your rights or the way most of Dems want to appear to care your health and welfare. 

 

Every one of these guys have their own reasons to take that stand, but "your" rights is the last one they care. Someone pointed out end-to-end real encryption with keys only the user has access to.  No matter what they say, Google doesnt support it and neither most of folks running tech business.  Doing so puts most of them out of business. They cant see what you are doing, they cant run data analytics, they cant sell you (and other companies) a tailored marketing solution. 

 

Information is power and there are very few, if any, who let you keep your information to yourself.  Just like there are very few, if any, who really support 2A to the core. 

[jackandjill 683]

im kinda shocked the government doesn't already have all this data in Utah anyway

In the business of Govts, appearance of capability is more important than actual capability.  All those, cool, blue background techno sets on TV and movies just glorifies what may not be there. 

 

Even if its there, such capability still cannot violate laws of mathematics. Existing capabilities cannot break certain strength encryption. There is cost to decryption. 

So the closer they can get to the source (your phone, virtual keyboard on your touch phone, the mic, the speaker), the better and easier for them to gather more data.  

 

And thats where they want to push. 

[Howard 538]

The idiots on some Senate committee are now trying to pass a law to make companies decrypt stuff. They are just proving how stupid they really are. There are many encryption programs available that terrorists or the general public can use. I just downloaded one on my phone today that does 448 bit encryption. All you do it type or paste your text into a window and enter a password and it encrypts the text. You then paste it into a text or email and send it. The person at the other end uses the same program with your password and can read it. Without that password no one would know what it was, what encryption method was used or what the password was. Further, you can multiple encrypt it so it would take years and years for the gov to decrypt it - if ever.

 

 

Here is the above encrypted:

 

df3EmX0Yqp0ydIXvXA1fZrDma66e]CxQuw2SNXctPZ0isDtIizv9JNnNJ3WtYZw5GWvPpws9bfzjpOS21zUOzY)]ct3s]WyiF7VU)iMSoaHat7MFhKRnp0eH5KJlwX51fehIMw9am71k]po5njKhhbPLTAUJo689WGRwapDOzr)tz1ECFGEvkOCxqcPVVji3iSSig5nKisY7RKGFdUeSO3vX32q3RF6IVwr8fkCvfjE2EgPLSw0L2pfqSjUoQVcUnoJIiZ6xY)zz29)A1XnrvE1RIAcoSIchUO2iJVObz]nKQbypoUQahyNJZdVZsA6]]xjx6QTzMfOL]ijbXoMZ1YdaweKwiiBjj3qrdpTo81c8n3dm9u2Zf7wlC8ttlJUAKB0Egyi6]2mCgl]5VjIkCj59oJehs1usp2rFZ72oO0sRKI75ZOiWWvLd9C4RAPwHPWnBkFuQa4Z1]o1zUWHgy05riXA)hAe)2b)bf4]EwRCO7RmjtdbI4MLR4GBiRWlXNdg5Q]UimFq]JueFHUpRMgGCK2QsP0ASeLnOJwLRZpnFLL)5ke5t7ybdpg!

[mikeyjones 88]

The idiots on some Senate committee are now trying to pass a law to make companies decrypt stuff. They are just proving how stupid they really are. There are many encryption programs available that terrorists or the general public can use. I just downloaded one on my phone today that does 448 bit encryption. All you do it type or paste your text into a window and enter a password and it encrypts the text. You then paste it into a text or email and send it. The person at the other end uses the same program with your password and can read it. Without that password no one would know what it was, what encryption method was used or what the password was. Further, you can multiple encrypt it so it would take years and years for the gov to decrypt it - if ever.

Agreed on the Senate point.

 

Just wanted to note to be careful with encryption software. Not all is created equal. Different methods are inherently more secure than others regardless of "bits" . Also some stuff downloaded from non reputable sources may have backdoors built in

 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

[Howard 538]

Agreed on the Senate point.

 

Just wanted to note to be careful with encryption software. Not all is created equal. Different methods are inherently more secure than others regardless of "bits" . Also some stuff downloaded from non reputable sources may have backdoors built in

 

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk

That is very true, but I don't have anything to hide so I am not too worried.  Just tried it out of curiosity.  But even if a backdoor someone would both have to know what program you used and what method was used even if there was a backdoor.  The one I used has five different methods and you can take the first encryption and run it through a second method and then run that through a third method and the likelihood of someone figuring it out even with a backdoor would be virtually zero.  The point is government cannot keep up with smart minds with evil intent.

[jackandjill 683]

In the grand scheme of things, dont for get this  - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-12/cash-abroad-rises-206-billion-as-apple-to-ibm-avoid-tax

 

There is price on everything. At some point Govt will decide how badly they want the features.  With little bit of negotiation, I am sure there will be a WIN-WIN-WIN-LOSE solution.  Magically, the discussion fades away from public eye. Once in a while some obscure Russian guy finds some "security bugs" that Apple will gladly fix in the interest of public rights.

 

Win for Apple <<insert-any-large-company>>

Win for FBI 

Win for the terrorist who want nothing more than freedoms eroded from inside out

Lose for  Joe The Citizen

[PeteF 1,044]

I really don't see why they couldn't implement a hardwire technique. Physically removing the memory from the phone or something similar like jumping connections. No remote access means they would need the physical phone and have to take it apart.

 

I agree with Apples sentiments on the issue, but I also think there should be a way to access information without providing a backdoor for anyone to take advantage of.

Because the DATA on the "chip" is encrypted.  They are unable to decrypt the data without the password.  What they are asking Apple to do is bypass the too many password attempts feature that bricks the phone after x # of tries.  That will allow them to brute force try passwords until they get in.  Once in, the password is used in the algorithm to decrypt the data. 

[PeteF 1,044]

So what does it say for conservatives when the liberals at apple care more about your privacy than the majority of our conservative candidates who are screaming for apples head to get them to comply.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't give a rat's ass about privacy.  They care about sales.  Fold on this case and their customer base thinks "hey they will fold again".  Customers will go other places to make their purchases, hurting Apples bottom line.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Because the DATA on the "chip" is encrypted.  They are unable to decrypt the data without the password.  What they are asking Apple to do is bypass the too many password attempts feature that bricks the phone after x # of tries.  That will allow them to brute force try passwords until they get in.  Once in, the password is used in the algorithm to decrypt the data. 

I was referencing having a hardware modification that would allow decryption. I think robot is right though, no matter how hard you try there will always be a work around if you make one available.

[45Doll 5,877]

For those of you interested in 'cracking', Google 'one time pad'.

 

It's not relevant to Apple, but someone who REALLY wants to cover what they're doing can do it.

 

Relevant to Apple and the iPhone, is this. In other words, don't hold your breath.

[maintenanceguy 510]

Apple is being told to do three things:

 

• Create new software that will allow the FBI to brute force the phone's password.
• Make that software so that it runs in memory and does not alter the existing operating system.
• Give a copy of that software to the FBI.

It's not only wrong that a private company is being told that they must create a new product for the government's use.  It's not only that this new software might get into the wrong hands. The big problem is that Apple is being told to give this software over to the FBI so the FBI can use it anytime they want on any phone they want. 

 

If the FBI really only wanted to get into this phone, they would ask the judge to make Apple assist them in breaking in.  They aren't asking for that.  They asked the judge to force Apple to write software that the FBI will get to keep.   This has little to do with this particular terrorist's phone.  This is really about the FBI wanting to make sure nobody can have any secrets from the FBI.

[njpilot 671]

I'm pretty sure they don't give a rat's ass about privacy.  They care about sales.  Fold on this case and their customer base thinks "hey they will fold again".  Customers will go other places to make their purchases, hurting Apples bottom line.

It was reported earlier that Apple helped the gov't break into phones 70 times in the past, so what should their customers think about that?

[mikeyjones 88]

It was reported earlier that Apple helped the gov't break into phones 70 times in the past, so what should their customers think about that?

 

Very different.  For prior versions of iphones and any ios <8 Apple had a master key where they could unlock it.  That software wasn't encrypted.  

 

iOS 8+ is encrypted.

[Maksim 1,504]

Yep... Apple started caring about security recently, especially once they tried to push hard into the corporate market to replace all the BlackBerries. 

 

It is funny too, a guy I was sitting next to at my last conference was looking at my Blackberry and was asking me how I like them.  He pulled out his 8 year old Curve or Bold... and told me how he went to get one after his android devices were hacked into recently.... twice.  And this is a guy who managed a sizable investment business. 

 

The more I read about this stuff, the more paranoid I get. lol.  

 

... and that is why do not use Google whenever I don't have to.