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Rifle for HD? This guy thinks you're wrong.

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Kinda interested to hear what everyone had to say about this. I haven't don't my homework on who this guy is, honestly, but he believes your AR or similar is a bad idea inside a home.

 

https://thestreetstandards.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/long-guns-for-home-defense-not-such-a-hot-idea/

 

And his follow up

 

https://thestreetstandards.wordpress.com/2016/01/17/i-proved-it-works-in-a-shoot-house-ehhhh-not-so-fast-skippy/comment-page-1/

 

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A few thoughts:

 

First: Who the hell is Ralph Mroz and why should I lessen to him over Pat Rogers, Kyle Lamb, Mike Lamb, or any of the other professional, been there/done that trainers out there teaching modern TTPs?

 

If a handgun is the best tool for clearing structures, why don't the high speed units out there - CAG, SEAL 6, FBI HRT, etc - do it?

 

Second:

I would like to meet the SWAT team commander that took rifles away from his people and does all entries with handguns so I can tell him that he is an asshat and should retire before he gets his guys killed. Oh wait, he said that happened in the mid 90's..... Way to be relevant :rolleyes: We haven't learned much about fighting with a carbine in the last 20 years or so.

 

Hey Ralph, define "At speed and tactically". WTF does that mean? Running through the house balls to the wall shooting at bad guys? What trained person would dynamically clear their own home to check for an intruder? It's slow and steady while you gather the family, until/unless the bullets start flying, then it's more about shooting than moving.

 

Third:

With proper training you can clear a porta-potty or a phone booth with a long gun. With proper training you can open a door, talk on a phone, secure a prisoner, escort a family memeber, carry a child with a long gun (Maybe not a pump shotgun as you need two hands to operate it for more than one shot)

 

Fourth:

Handguns historically suck at stopping a determined attacker.

 

Handgun rounds also retain more mass at higher speeds after passing through interior and exterior walls with more potential for injury.

 

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His whole point is based in ease of movement - an opinion that appears to be based on his experience as a self admitted untrained individual in the presence of other untrained individuals - and does not take effectiveness* of the platform or proper training TTPs into consideration at all.

 

*Effectiveness being terminal ballistics in addition to easier to shoot/get hits. Along with firing a less effective round, a handgun is significantly harder to get good hits with when compared to a rifle or a shotgun. Especially in a dynamic situation like a dynamic clear or HD situation.

 

If all of your training is blue-gun training it's easy to see how that conclusion could be drawn. Unfortunately it is much more complicated than that.

 

Is it easier to move with a handgun than a long gun? Absolutely! That doesn't necessarily make it the best option. There is a lot more to a gunfight than what weapon is easiest to move with.

 

My verdict:3DB87DF4-F2FF-4773-BF27-820A9F1314AD_zps

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I think he is right as far as moving around your house and trying to do other tasks is easier with a handgun. However, an M4 type or other longun with a collapsing or folding stock (which are illegal in NJ) and an aimpoint or eotech red dot sight that allows quick target acquisition are in my mi ND excellent choices for home defense. With a long gun, proper ammunition choice is also essential to avoid over penetration and possibly endangering others outside your house if you do have to shoot.

 

Bottom line for home defense, train with what you choose whether handgun or long gun, and you give yourself a much better chance if put into an actual situation.

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I've read scores of editorials and forum debates on best HD firearms.  Everyone makes a good point but they all miss the main issue.  Defend yourself with whatever you are most comfortable using.  Honestly, I suck with handguns, I'd probably shoot my foot before i neutralized a threat.  I love my trusty old 870.  It may not be as portable or sexy as a handgun with lights and lasers and tritium sights,  but I'm comfortable with my clunky old workhorse.

 

While not exactly the same thing as HD, I have seen video after video of soldiers clearing buildings in Iraq with M4's like champs.  If handguns were superior, wouldn't they sling their M4 over their back and switch to a 9mm HG?  Just say'n.

 

With that said, I'm going to admit, in public, for all to see and mock, that I believe the ugly as sin Taurus Judge is a viable option for handheld HD.  Using 410 buckshot is a force multiplier with 5 pellets in each round and it neatly addresses the issue of over penetration..  What can I say, I like shotguns.  If I decide I like handguns at some future date, I could just stuff some 45LC in it.

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I feel like I just walked out of church nodding my head repeatedly after reading HE's post.

You bobble you! Lol...

 

 

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I agree to a point but if it's something that people are serious about, they should take the initiative to learn the best tool for the job within reason. A baseball bat is better than nothing but when it's sitting next to AR I want to know how to use the AR

 

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Defend yourself with whatever you are most comfortable using.

I feel like every self/home defense thread should start and end with this sentence.

 

 

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Defend yourself with whatever you are most comfortable using after appropriately educating yourself and receiving some relevant training.

 

Now I agree as well.

 

That being said, Scorpio, have you patterned or chrono'd your Judge with your ammo of choice at distances similar to those in your home? If so have you compared them to the same .410 round when from a shotgun.There is a significant difference in velocity and pattern and between .410 buck from a 18" barrel with a choke designed for shot, and rifled 3", 4", or 6.5" barrel from a revolver.

 

If so, I am interested in hearing your results.

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I use a mace. Not mace, a mace.

 

Specifically, a german type, with a steel head and shaft, and brass accents. I can use it one handed while rescuing the dog with the other hand or operating a 1000lumen flashlight. If the bad guy takes it away from me odds are he would just drop it on his foot. It has no safeties and it doesn't require any fine motor controls under stress.  It is silenced so I don't need to wear earpro in my home, doesn't need to be reloaded, It is easy to maneuver, it is effective against body armor as after all it was designed to be used by the precursors of GSG9, when they had to dump the lance and get into CQC situations against other armored specops troops. 

 

If it was good enough for my grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-pa it is good enough for me and I don't need one of these new assault bats.

 

Anyone know if I can get a rail for it? I want to see if I can put a forward grip on it.  I can probably find one in the Tapco catalog.

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Second:

I would like to meet the SWAT team commander that took rifles away from his people and does all entries with handguns so I can tell him that he is an asshat and should retire before he gets his guys killed.

 

 

 

We can probably arrange that.   I'm sure he's buddies with Arthur Kill

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I use a mace. Not mace, a mace.

 

Specifically, a german type, with a steel head and shaft, and brass accents. I can use it one handed while rescuing the dog with the other hand or operating a 1000lumen flashlight. If the bad guy takes it away from me odds are he would just drop it on his foot. It has no safeties and it doesn't require any fine motor controls under stress.  It is silenced so I don't need to wear earpro in my home, doesn't need to be reloaded, It is easy to maneuver, it is effective against body armor as after all it was designed to be used by the precursors of GSG9, when they had to dump the lance and get into CQC situations against other armored specops troops. 

 

If it was good enough for my grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-pa it is good enough for me and I don't need one of these new assault bats.

 

Anyone know if I can get a rail for it? I want to see if I can put a forward grip on it.  I can probably find one in the Tapco catalog.

I believe they are banned in NJ

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Defend yourself with whatever you are most comfortable using after appropriately educating yourself and receiving some relevant training.

 

Now I agree as well.

 

That being said, Scorpio, have you patterned or chrono'd your Judge .........

 

If so, I am interested in hearing your results.

 

I do not own a Judge, I just think a tiny handheld shotty is an interesting concept with it's own unique tactical advantages.  I know the barrel length is a drawback compared to an 18.5"bbl.  May even be useless against an assailant dressed in winter clothing.  Still though, I like the idea.  No matter what one uses for HD, it will be too much or too little depending on circumstantial variables.  If a home invader is standing in front of my kids bedroom, I dunno if I want to put M855 through him.

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I use a mace. Not mace, a mace.

 

Specifically, a german type, with a steel head and shaft, and brass accents. I can use it one handed while rescuing the dog with the other hand or operating a 1000lumen flashlight. If the bad guy takes it away from me odds are he would just drop it on his foot. It has no safeties and it doesn't require any fine motor controls under stress. It is silenced so I don't need to wear earpro in my home, doesn't need to be reloaded, It is easy to maneuver, it is effective against body armor as after all it was designed to be used by the precursors of GSG9, when they had to dump the lance and get into CQC situations against other armored specops troops.

 

If it was good enough for my grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-pa it is good enough for me and I don't need one of these new assault bats.

 

Anyone know if I can get a rail for it? I want to see if I can put a forward grip on it. I can probably find one in the Tapco catalog.

Oh you funny guy

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I thought it was illegal in New Jersey to assault a home invader? Aren't you suppose to run away? That's what they said on the news. They can't say anything on the news that isn't true. 

 

Besides, how are you going to use a gun if they are all locked in a safe with the ammo locked in a different safe on the other side of the house? 

 

I would just call the police and wait 45 minutes for them to get there. 

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A handgun is tool of convienance, if you knew you would be involved in a gun fight you either avoid it or take the best tool for the job. Another thing take your normal shooting position with your hands extended you will find with the right tool for the job think AR or defensive shotgun and you will find that the distance to muzzle is not much more then with your handgun, house clearing is a bad idea unless you absolutely have to ....... Most stats available consistently show that handguns are 20 percent effective. With proper training you can effectively engage targets in close quarters... With a tool that will effectively end the fight......jmop. PS he lost me at Dude.....

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While I have trained with an ar and prefer it for home defense, truth is it's much easier for me to keep a handgun at the ready while at home. I'm not walking around while I'm home with an ar slung over my shoulder, but I can easily have my G19 w/light on my hip always. And with that, I can't put myself in the unfortunate situation of having walked away from my tool if something goes wrong, nor can I walk away from an unsecured, loaded weapon.

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While I have trained with an ar and prefer it for home defense, truth is it's much easier for me to keep a handgun at the ready while at home. I'm not walking around while I'm home with an ar slung over my shoulder, but I can easily have my G19 w/light on my hip always. And with that, I can't put myself in the unfortunate situation of having walked away from my tool if something goes wrong, nor can I walk away from an unsecured, loaded weapon.

Obviously we fight with the tools at hand when shit goes down. I have my AR in a shotlock in my bedroom closet locked and ready to go. My handguns are above them. If I have one in my hip while I'm sitting around having tea then so be it. If I'm upstairs i'm going for the carbine.

 

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If a home invader is standing in front of my kids bedroom, I dunno if I want to put M855 through him.

That's why you make a plan ahead of time. Know what's your target and beyond. If your kids room is at 12 o clock maybe you don't shoot if you know they are home.

 

Also, nobody would really suggest m855 for CQB. There's are plenty of good .223/5.56 ammo that works better in every situation

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I thought it was illegal in New Jersey to assault a home invader? Aren't you suppose to run away? That's what they said on the news. They can't say anything on the news that isn't true. 

 

Besides, how are you going to use a gun if they are all locked in a safe with the ammo locked in a different safe on the other side of the house? 

 

I would just call the police and wait 45 minutes for them to get there. 

 

I consider a home invasion a act of terrorism , And i would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. JMHO.

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I believe they are banned in NJ

He didn't really mean a mace but, as a side note, I bought one from an exercise web site, Onnit, use it all the time for exercise and could definitely do some damage with it. I have the receipt to show it is exercise equipment if for some reason I was to crush someone's skull,with it. Not a weapon, strength and conditioning equipment.

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I just had another thought why a long gun may be better than a handgun.

 

If the sling lives on the long gun you have a way to hold the weapon and still use two hands to accomplish a necessary task - open a window, deployt a fire extinguisher, secure an intruder - while maintaining control of the firearm. With a handgun, unless you slept with a holster already on, or take time to put on a belt with holster attached, you will have to place the firearm down someplace relinquishing control of the weapon.

 

While I have trained with an ar and prefer it for home defense, truth is it's much easier for me to keep a handgun at the ready while at home. I'm not walking around while I'm home with an ar slung over my shoulder, but I can easily have my G19 w/light on my hip always. And with that, I can't put myself in the unfortunate situation of having walked away from my tool if something goes wrong, nor can I walk away from an unsecured, loaded weapon.

  

 

No one is saying to walk around your home with an M4 slung across your chest, or to stash an M4 in every nook and cranny at your house. Sometimes you have a choice what to use, sometimes you're forced to use the tools at hand - be it a curtain rod, a bat, a frying pan, a kitchen knife, a pistol, or a long gun.

 

But the autor's assertation that a pistol is the 1 choice as a primary weapon is ludicrous, uninformed, and irresponsible.

 

I have a pistol next to the bed. In the closet next to that there is an AR in condition 3, with armor for the whole family. If have time, that closet is where I am headed, if not I will solve any immediate problems as necessary and either run away or fight to the AR.

 

That's why you make a plan ahead of time. Know what's your target and beyond. If your kids room is at 12 o clock maybe you don't shoot if you know they are home.

Also, nobody would really suggest m855 for CQB. There's are plenty of good .223/5.56 ammo that works better in every situation

This. There are tons of different kinds of ammo out there for an AR. Don't pick a round designed to penetrate steel helmets at 500 yards to defend your home. One - it will zip through unarmored bad guys leaving a wound like an ice pick, two - it will zip through walls fairly easily retaining mass and velocity. Save the M855 for range duty and buy a round designed for your purposes to load in mags dedicated to HD.

 

I use 64gr Federal TRU soft nose. After being present at a few live demonstrations put on by various ammo manufacturers, I am confident it is a good choice for my applications.

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I've been looking for Federal Tru on and off for months now. Never seems to be in stock.

 

 

 

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This place seems to have some in stock.  http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/223-Ammo-Federal-LE-Tactical-223-55-Gr-SP-p/t223a.htm

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I checked them for 64 grain. Didn't see the 55.... Thanks.

 

 

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