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Kevin125

The question about "How do we fix this state?"

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So I'll post this here since it's got nothing to do with the thread I posted it in originally.

 

The comments were ....

 

CMJeepster, on 15 Mar 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:snapback.png

NJ 101.5 spent the 5 PM hour talking about this topic and how screwed up the firearm laws are in this state.  The hosts and majority of callers were in agreement that something needs to be done.

 

 

fumanchu182, on 15 Mar 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:snapback.png

Something needs to be done but with the political status quo what can be done. The dindus keep voting in the hand out politicians.

 

----------------------

 

With the Dem politicians in the state, all that matters is how many votes they get for saying "XYZ".  I think one way we might get a change in firearms laws is to make it beneficial to Dems to vote FOR the things we want done.  To do that we would need a massive PR campaign to sway public opinion.  It would take...In the words of Les Grossman.. "Lot's and lots of money..."  But it could be done.

For most people... not all... but most people... when you speak to them rationally about firearms and educate them, they tend to agree with the positions of 2A supporters.  Some won't ... but most will.  You have to get through the ignorance and misinformation they've been fed by the Statists and Fascists.

 

But one on one conversion is a tall order to fill.  Most of us do it all year long when we have the chance to get the ear of an anti-gun person.  But a massive PR campaign with a whole lot of money behind it is what's needed.  The money is out there.  Look at what got dumped into these wasted campaigns.  If that message gets across to enough people, these Dems in the House and Senate down in the cesspool we call Trenton will have no choice but to abide by the will of the people.. or be gone.  Sounds like pie in the sky right now.  But that's how those animals feed.  Use their own vices against them.

 

This isn't something that would happen in a month or probably even a year. But it shouldn't take much longer than that if there's enough resources applied.

 

Normally, an organization like the NRA would be a conduit for those resources.  But we all know that story. For reasons I just don't understand, issues specific to NJ are of little to no interest to the NRA. Maybe they're the arsonist that always needs a fire to watch.

 

In any case, I think this is at least one way to make something happen.  It's not a job for one or even a dozen people.  It's a job for an organization with serious financial backing.  It requires programs like what your heard on 101.5 to be on the air every single day.  It requires ranges to have community days to invite people in to learn about firearms, how to handle them safely and how they benefit a community.  It requires people talking about how a concealed weapon saved their life or the life of someone else.   It requires politicians already supporting the 2A get out there and be vocal about it.  They need to feel like they will be able to take credit for a successful outcome.

 

I don't know how all this gets started or gets properly organized, but trying to change the political landscape in Trenton without changing the views of the people of the state is almost certainly a dead end.

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Kevin,

 

As the VP of the Coalition of New Jersey Firearm Owners let me invite you to join us.  Our goals and approach are extremely similar.  We have a fundraising project to raise funds for a public education billboard campaign that we'll invite pro-2A politicians to (along with NJ gun law victims) when we call a Press Conference in front of it.  Then we invite the TV and radio stations to attend.  Then the entire concept goes VIRAL just like it did for Shaneen Allen.  So much pressure and common sense that Trenton has to listen.  Like putting a hole in a dike, and letting the water pressure do its' job! 

 

Where the billboard is exactly doesn't matter.  The fact that the Press can park a news van next to it and do a live shot with a reporter standing in front of it w/o being hit standing in traffic DOES matter!  So instead of being like most folks on the forum (telling us what to do w/o contributing a dime), how about joining at http://www.cnjfo.com/store ?  

 

And----NO BULLSHIT----if you want to help on a committee of your choosing, just let me know.  We'd love to have you!

 

Dave Rosenthal, VP

Coalition of New Jersey Firearm Owners (CNJFO)

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You need to spend less time on swaying opinion.

 

There is so much BS and lies from the other side that it is difficult to change hearts and minds with "your bogus facts" or "statistics" or arguments about the principles behind The Second Amendment.

 

There is one problem with Jersey that needs to be fixed. Awareness. When people in Jersey say, "People carry guns in Texas," you realize you have a problem. Of course we carry twice as many guns in PA with half the population, and normal people carry guns in 47 states. When they come here for outlet stores or shopping they are surrounded by guns and have no idea. This is not a PA thing (I know the TX guys get pissed when I say this), it's exactly the way people think in Jersey and the proper illustration.

 

I've said it before and I will say it again, I have turned at least 20 or so screaming anti libs or fence sitters in Jersey to our side to some variable extent. They are simply ignorant, that's the only problem. It takes either very smart, mature people or controlled circumstances to change someone's mind in our world by arguing facts. Arguing or debating normally results in defensiveness, counter attack, and opposition. Lead the horse to water but don;t try forcing him to drink.

 

Once people in New Jersey come to realize gun ownership and carry is NORMAL, and it doesn't cause any problems, most of this nonsense will go away on its own. There is no reason to go around the barn and try to convince them that guns save this many lives or that many lives or this thing Brady Bunch said is wrong and so is this thing Obama said. The Brady Campaign/Bloomberg/etc. "state" facts, the NRA and pro gun people "make claims." That's the brainwashing of our society. And, they are allowed to lie and make up bullshit. Which is pretty cool, but makes it more difficult for us, obviously.

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Mipa, what you're talking about swaying opinion on and individual basis. Which as I said, is just fine to do. But that same thing needs to be done on a larger scale. Awareness is part of it. Awareness that the guy on line at Walmart may be carrying, is fine. For a lot of people, unless they jettison their inaccurate phobia's about guns, it probably won't do much to get them on board. I think there's more to it than that. I had a conversation with someone after they said they couldn't effing believe someone wanted to carry a gun in church. This was after The SC Baptist church gun free zone shooting.

 

Part of the conversation was about how when I look around church I see at least two, maybe three of the people that I know for a fact are carrying. They're off duty cops. "But they're cops!" ..... The point is, it didn't, by itself help much. I'm still working on this guy. He's a lot of work. But he is gonna be shooting at my range at some point and in the process he is gonna be educated.

 

And thanks for the Disney point. I forgot to point that out. Priceless.

 

Anyway, i think we're on the same page. I just think it needs to be done more than just one on one.

 

Smokin .50.... I'll be in touch. TY.

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So let me give you a little background about why I said what I said.  I live in Hudson County, NJ - One of the most corrupt, destitute counties in NJ if not the entire north east.  Every elected politician ranging from the 32nd Leg. district to the mayor offices all the way to the county positions are all Democrat.  Not one of the elected officials could give a rats ass about preserving our constitutional rights, especially the second amendment.  All they care about is a fat check and staying in power.  I had to jump through hoops with the NJ2AS and threaten the mayor of my town and the captain of the police in a city hall meeting with a lawsuit if they did not follow state statutes.  That made me a target and to this day I get followed once in a while around the town by a black ford explorer, police package and all, but I got my pistol permits.  But that moment put something in perspective for me.  Life is too short to be unhappy and if something makes you unhappy change it.  You know what would make me happy:

 

ENJOYING A CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED RIGHT

 

In NJ to do that we would have to reset the system to the beginning because over decades of degeneration we have let it come to what it is now.  I'm a younger gentleman and I wasn't able to vote when all the brouhaha went down in the annals of history so it is not my fault but it is also not my mess to fix.  Tying back in the "change it" part of the aforementioned paragraph, individuals have devoted life's work in NJ to try and change the system but nothing has changed, it has only gotten worse.  I feel bad for those individuals that have stuck through this nightmare and it is borderline insanity.  Doing the same thing over and over again (fighting the dems) and expecting a different outcome but things remain the same.  So I'd like to bring a quote from this thread into play now.

 

one answer.......MOVE!

 

This is the 100% correct answer and here is why:

 

WE ARE THE MINORITY, NOTHING HERE WILL EVER CHANGE AND NJ IS A LOST CAUSE.

 

You can't just magically import people that think like us into the state and force a change.  For every one person you convert to a 2A supporter, ten illegal immigrants got a green card and then became citizens and then are allowed to vote.  You know who they vote for, the politicians who harbored them in Hudson County with my tax dollars.  Ultimate slap in the face.  For every two people you convert to a 2A supportor a dindu is given a hand out so that vote keeps showing up as blue.  Once you come to terms with this you will get the hell out like everyone else.  NJ is collapsing under it's own corruption and political greed.  This is the status-quo, no NJ gun laws will change.  It's sad but that is reality.  So I will continue to donate to the NJ2AS hoping they keep up the good fight but come July 1st when my lease is up, I am out of here.  I've been evaluating jobs in Florida but decided that state is out of question because too many arse holes from NJ and NY are moving there and ruining it.  I've been evaluating jobs in NC/SC area but it still gets too cold there for my liking.  I've recently been in contact with another subsidiary of my organization and they are looking forward to me officially putting in the paperwork and transferring, that would put me on the outskirts of Austin, TX with a nice home, tons of land and still working for a fortune ten company in the land of the free where taxes are minimal and I can have pretty much any weapon I want, I've been saving money for tax stamps to buy cool things.  I even have an application in with Uncle Sam to serve my country if that falls through, but I can tell you now, seeing the rest of the world is better than living in NJ and I would never rotate back here once leaving the service.  You may think of this as a defeatist attitude but it is not.  It is a rational conclusion based on the political direction of this state, The tax situation which continually gets worse and the down right disgusting attitude of 90% of the people that live in NJ.  I'd say that the other 10% are members of this forums and I enjoyed my time here and the joking and the knowledge and the camaraderie.

 

I applaud you on your journey to try and make a difference but just like I stated before, people have devoted life's work to try and make a change in NJ and have wasted precious years.  I will not and I hope you make the decision to pursue relocating as well.

 

/end rant

 

best of luck to you

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Mipa, what you're talking about swaying opinion on and individual basis. Which as I said, is just fine to do. But that same thing needs to be done on a larger scale. Awareness is part of it. Awareness that the guy on line at Walmart may be carrying, is fine. For a lot of people, unless they jettison their inaccurate phobia's about guns, it probably won't do much to get them on board. I think there's more to it than that. I had a conversation with someone after they said they couldn't effing believe someone wanted to carry a gun in church. This was after The SC Baptist church gun free zone shooting.

 

Part of the conversation was about how when I look around church I see at least two, maybe three of the people that I know for a fact are carrying. They're off duty cops. "But they're cops!" ..... The point is, it didn't, by itself help much. I'm still working on this guy. He's a lot of work. But he is gonna be shooting at my range at some point and in the process he is gonna be educated.

 

And thanks for the Disney point. I forgot to point that out. Priceless.

 

Anyway, i think we're on the same page. I just think it needs to be done more than just one on one.

 

Smokin .50.... I'll be in touch. TY.

 

You might want to give that a second thought. You are pushing my agenda but believe you are disagreeing in part. See how that works? :)

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Fumanchu182, I was born in Hudson county and I can tell you not much has changed about the level of corruption in that county in 50 or more years. Other than the specific tactics used these days.

 

Appreciate the thoughts but I disagree with the math. I sure as hell can't predict what will happen. The trend around the country is in our favor. Illinois and Michigan, both liberal/Dem enclaves and illegal alien breeding grounds have better carry laws than NJ.

 

And I hate losing.

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You might want to give that a second thought. You are pushing my agenda but believe you are disagreeing in part. See how that works? :)

Its late and i have to get up at 5. Help me out. What the hell am I disagreeing with??

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I went to school with Wisniewski and have followed his activity. He's an ultra leftist commie. Did you notice the Bernie pin?

 

That crew has as much chance of winning Monmouth county as Cruz has of winning the West Village in Manhattan. Its way too early to even have a clue as to how 2017 will turn out. There are quite a few candidates that can run. Most RINOs. Which fit the bill for NJ just fine.

 

So I wouldn't peg those slime balls as NJ's future yet.

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The only way to do this is sway public opinion and how do you do this? Agree to take one to two new people to the range a couple times a year---heck, even offer to buy them lunch. Once these people see house safe and rational most gun owners are, it opens up a new door for conversation. Also, when you talk to these people know your history, know your facts and be prepared for any and all questions. 

 

I have come to the conclusion that we need to stop relying on politicians to preserve or protect our rights---that time has passed. However, "we the people" are the government and if opinion changes greatly then actions change and positions change in government. This is one line in the sand that should NOT be negotiable...fight for it like your life depends on it....which inreality, it does.

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Changing public opinion is a good idea, however, given the small number of interested gun owners in New Jersey it would take forever to effect any real change. Newtonian's idea of getting Pro 2A people elected to office, is probably the fastest and best way of changing the political climate.

 

There is a post in the NJ2A , section, by MadeinAmerica, who is running for sheriff in Ocean County. If he is a legitimate candidate, trying to get him elected may be the first step in showing the Democrats and Republicans in this state, we are serious about change. Baby steps. First, one candidate at a time.

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There is no wrong answer. All ideas have merit and all need to be done.

Vote and get others to vote pro 2a+

Take noobs or antis to range+

Educate the uniformed citizenry.+

Warn out of state+

 

Vote with your feet? I guess

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Changing public opinion is a good idea, however, given the small number of interested gun owners in New Jersey it would take forever to effect any real change. Newtonian's idea of getting Pro 2A people elected to office, is probably the fastest and best way of changing the political climate.

 

There is a post in the NJ2A , section, by MadeinAmerica, who is running for sheriff in Ocean County. If he is a legitimate candidate, trying to get him elected may be the first step in showing the Democrats and Republicans in this state, we are serious about change. Baby steps. First, one candidate at a time.

 

But how does one get Pro 2A politicians in office if no one in the state would vote for a 2A supporter. The problem is, it simply does not work as these politicians begin with good intentions then soon become corrupt.You need a well informed voter block to vote in fundamentally sound representatives. What I mentioned above could happen much sooner and with greater affect and here's why. First, I've never taken a person to the range that hated it---I've even gotten' my kids to take their friends with us (ages 20-24) and each one of them has either bought a gun or joined a range soon after going with us. That's 3 people that flipped from anti/neutral to Pro-gun. If each gun owner takes 3 new people to the range in a 6 month period, then you could potentially increase gun ownership 3-fold. Guess what, if you make it clear to those 3 you're responsible for to bring others to the range, we could flip over 50% of the population to the importance of the 2A---WOW! By election time 1/2 the state could be in "our" corner. It's a lot of work and a lot of time, but think of yourself as a politician building your voter base and in the long run, you're running your "campaign" against tyranny. Because "we the people" are the government!

 

I've been involved in local politics for years along with being an avid "protester"----I can tell you, politics is a waste and most of these guys do not stick to principals. Though they're well intended, they sway quickly to what they think the populace will get them re-elected. So it's up to us----please stop leaving it in the hands of those that don't care about us. Unless the minds of the people are changed, it's a futile and losing proposition.

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But how does one get Pro 2A politicians in office if no one in the state would vote for a 2A supporter. The problem is, it simply does not work as these politicians begin with good intentions then soon become corrupt.You need a well informed voter block to vote in fundamentally sound representatives. What I mentioned above could happen much sooner and with greater affect and here's why. First, I've never taken a person to the range that hated it---I've even gotten' my kids to take their friends with us (ages 20-24) and each one of them has either bought a gun or joined a range soon after going with us. That's 3 people that flipped from anti/neutral to Pro-gun. If each gun owner takes 3 new people to the range in a 6 month period, then you could potentially increase gun ownership 3-fold. Guess what, if you make it clear to those 3 you're responsible for to bring others to the range, we could flip over 50% of the population to the importance of the 2A---WOW! By election time 1/2 the state could be in "our" corner. It's a lot of work and a lot of time, but think of yourself as a politician building your voter base and in the long run, you're running your "campaign" against tyranny. Because "we the people" are the government!

 

I've been involved in local politics for years along with being an avid "protester"----I can tell you, politics is a waste and most of these guys do not stick to principals. Though they're well intended, they sway quickly to what they think the populace will get them re-elected. So it's up to us----please stop leaving it in the hands of those that don't care about us. Unless the minds of the people are changed, it's a futile and losing proposition.

Your math is correct, however there are simply not enough interested gun owners to start with.

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Your math is correct, however there are simply not enough interested gun owners to start with.

Then we need to "make them"...if you can't get others to join in, start the ball rolling yourself. This is what "being a community organizer" is like. Think of it as saving humanity from tyranny because if the USA drops, that's it----there's no other model for freedom.

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But how does one get Pro 2A politicians in office if no one in the state would vote for a 2A supporter. The problem is, it simply does not work as these politicians begin with good intentions then soon become corrupt.You need a well informed voter block to vote in fundamentally sound representatives. What I mentioned above could happen much sooner and with greater affect and here's why. First, I've never taken a person to the range that hated it---I've even gotten' my kids to take their friends with us (ages 20-24) and each one of them has either bought a gun or joined a range soon after going with us. That's 3 people that flipped from anti/neutral to Pro-gun. If each gun owner takes 3 new people to the range in a 6 month period, then you could potentially increase gun ownership 3-fold. Guess what, if you make it clear to those 3 you're responsible for to bring others to the range, we could flip over 50% of the population to the importance of the 2A---WOW! By election time 1/2 the state could be in "our" corner. It's a lot of work and a lot of time, but think of yourself as a politician building your voter base and in the long run, you're running your "campaign" against tyranny. Because "we the people" are the government!

 

I've been involved in local politics for years along with being an avid "protester"----I can tell you, politics is a waste and most of these guys do not stick to principals. Though they're well intended, they sway quickly to what they think the populace will get them re-elected. So it's up to us----please stop leaving it in the hands of those that don't care about us. Unless the minds of the people are changed, it's a futile and losing proposition.

 

We should all do this as often as possible.  It's also good for your range in terms of keeping membership up.

 

But... a bigger net has to be cast.  CJRPC has quite a few open-to-the public events and a number of programs that make the club known in the Jackson Twp area. This is great. I'm sure a lot of people work very hard getting all these event organized and done.  But an example of the problem is ....I've never heard about a single one of these events prior to making the effort to find a range.  People who are the best candidates to benefit from these events rarely know about them.  I really don't know exactly how to deal with that problem, but I know it's a problem we need to solve.  What's being done is fantastic.  But at least in this state, we've got some serious issues. We need more support from the public.

When we do this individually, we're stepping outside of our domain usually.  Outside the shooting sports/self defense arena and inviting someone in.  Easy to do one on one.  But it needs to be 1 on 100 ...or 1 on 1000 ...in terms of invites.

 

For the most part, we have to easiest sale on earth to make.  Not to every single person... but an easy sale to the vast majority or people out there.  There just needs to be a way to introduce people to our world a lot more efficiently than we're doing it now.

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How can you be sure?

I know of 4 I helped with the "process" and 3 of them have born fruit to an average 2.5 others

 

Zeke, I think that's outstanding but it feels like we need to bring more support in, even more than the example you just laid out.  Also, I think only a minority of gun owners do this. We may not have enough Zeke's.   Anyway.. see my previous post.

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We should all do this as often as possible.  It's also good for your range in terms of keeping membership up.

 

But... a bigger net has to be cast.  CJRPC has quite a few open-to-the public events and a number of programs that make the club known in the Jackson Twp area. This is great. I'm sure a lot of people work very hard getting all these event organized and done.  But an example of the problem is ....I've never heard about a single one of these events prior to making the effort to find a range.  People who are the best candidates to benefit from these events rarely know about them.  I really don't know exactly how to deal with that problem, but I know it's a problem we need to solve.  What's being done is fantastic.  But at least in this state, we've got some serious issues. We need more support from the public.

When we do this individually, we're stepping outside of our domain usually.  Outside the shooting sports/self defense arena and inviting someone in.  Easy to do one on one.  But it needs to be 1 on 100 ...or 1 on 1000 ...in terms of invites.

 

For the most part, we have to easiest sale on earth to make.  Not to every single person... but an easy sale to the vast majority or people out there.  There just needs to be a way to introduce people to our world a lot more efficiently than we're doing it now.

 

 

I understand what you're saying, but we need to be patient and continue the move forward. For example, it's as simple as starting a facebook group about shooting and list range dates and invite friends. Get with people on this site and organize 25 site members bringing 1 or 2 new shooters in 30 days. Please, simply take the small, essential personal steps which eventually explode into one big one. It is possible and we have all the tools to organize easily---it CAN be done!

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I understand what you're saying, but we need to be patient and continue the move forward. For example, it's as simple as starting a facebook group about shooting and list range dates and invite friends. Get with people on this site and organize 25 site members bringing 1 or 2 new shooters in 30 days. Please, simply take the small, essential personal steps which eventually explode into one big one. It is possible and we have all the tools to organize easily---it CAN be done!

Look into Cnjfo. You may find kindred spirits

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