Jump to content
dwheel

Home defense ammo

Recommended Posts

Have you seen the expansion tests for federal guard dog?  Doesn't expand much at all.  They used to make Federal EFMJ which had more power behind it than Guard Dog...  I would go with Critical Defense/Duty over Guard Dog.

 

I shot my EFMJ into ballistic gelatin at a training conference years ago... it didn't expand at all and penetrated 20 inches (same as a ball round).  Using the same gun about a minute later shooting corbon pow'rball, the bullet had perfect expansion and 13 inches of penetration.  That was enough for me and Ive used Powerball ever since

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dumb question. what's the difference between critical duty and critical defensew?

 

 

Critical Defense is made for shorter barrel, concealed carry guns.  Critical Duty is for longer barrel, full-size guns.  Basically the critical duty has more oomph behind it.  The bullet heads themselves are the same FTX bullets, but at different weights.  Critical defense 9mm is generally 115gr, though it comes in the 100gr "lite" form as well.  Critical duty is 135gr and can also be found in 9mm +P.

If I remember correctly, I believe I read that the Duty is better for penetrating glass and other barriers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dumb question. what's the difference between critical duty and critical defensew?

From Hornady's Website:

http://m.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense

CRITICAL DEFENSE® = Personal Protection/Concealed Carry

 

Critical DEFENSE® handgun ammunition was developed to provide the best performance for DEFENSIVE or PERSONAL PROTECTION SITUATIONS and is the ultimate choice for any short barreled, concealed carry style firearm.

 

FlexLock CutawayThe FTX® bullets loaded in all Critical Defense® handgun ammunition are designed to expand and provide the terminal performance needed for close encounters often associated with personal protection situations. Additionally, Critical DEFENSE® is not intended for use in extreme (law enforcement) situations that require superior barrier performance.* However, the FTX® bullet will expand reliably and will not clog like standard hollow point bullets when fired through heavy clothing.* In addition, Critical DEFENSE® ammunition IS optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handguns and will not deliver excessive recoil and associated “muzzle flip.”

 

CRITICAL DUTY® = Tactical

 

Critical DUTY® handgun ammunition is built to meet the needs and requirements of LAW ENFORCEMENT and TACTICAL PROFESSIONALS, as well as those law abiding citizens who prefer a full-size handgun for their personal protection and demand superior barrier penetration and subsequent terminal performance.

 

 

FlexLock CutawayThe FlexLock® bullets loaded in all Critical DUTY® offerings are rugged, heavy jacketed bullets that deliver virtually “barrier blind” performance (i.e. total penetration, weight retention and expansion are practically the same) when shot through common urban barriers* (bare gelatin, auto glass, sheet metal, plywood, drywall, heavy clothing*). In addition, Critical DUTY® loads are “full power loads” designed to function full-size handgun slides. Although designed to work flawlessly in ALL handguns, these loads are NOT optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handguns; they will deliver standard recoil during firing.

Defense v Duty .PDF:

http://m.hornady.com/assets/files/Critical-DUTY-vs-Critical-Defense.pdf

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much difference does ammo really make? I don't think all of these mass shooters and buying the kid of ammo mentioned here. They are probably buying and using plinking ammo and if that's the case, it seems to work pretty well.

Handgun calibers suck at stopping threats relative to rifle rounds.  Myself, I'll take every advantage I can get because you have to remember that as the good guy, violence is brought to YOU on the bad guy's terms.  Your training, mindset, and gear all play into your ability to overcome that disadvantage and fight to win.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much difference does ammo really make? I don't think all of these mass shooters and buying the kid of ammo mentioned here. They are probably buying and using plinking ammo and if that's the case, it seems to work pretty well.

There is a difference of goals. It doesn't matter what ammo you use if your goal is to go out in a hail of billets while causing as much damage as possible. Wound or kill doesn't matter as much, your still getting media attention.

 

You only have one shot to protect yourself and your family. The goal is to stop those that bring violence to you as fast as possible with zero collateral damage.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Handgun calibers suck at stopping threats relative to rifle rounds.  Myself, I'll take every advantage I can get because you have to remember that as the good guy, violence is brought to YOU on the bad guy's terms.  Your training, mindset, and gear all play into your ability to overcome that disadvantage and fight to win.

I agree that pistol rounds suck compared to rifle rounds, but the VaTech shooter killed 32 people with a 9mm and a .22.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it disturbing that you are using that as a benchmark for ammo selection on multiple levels. You are also looking at that incident in a vacuum.

 

He fired at least 174 rounds during the second attack in that incident - unknown how many he fired in the first attack. You plan on firing that much during an HD incident?

 

He also had no one firing back. It didn't matter how immediately effective his rounds were. He wasn't stopping a threat. He was hurting innocent people. Many were shot at close range.

 

His victims where trapped in classrooms and didn't fight back. He could have likely achieved those numbers with a bat, knife, or frying pan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it disturbing that you are using that as a benchmark for ammo selection on multiple levels. You are also looking at that incident in a vacuum.

He fired at least 174 rounds during the second attack in that incident - unknown how many he fired in the first attack. You plan on firing that much during an HD incident?

He also had no one firing back. It didn't matter how immediately effective his rounds were. He wasn't stopping a threat. He was hurting innocent people. Many were shot at close range.

His victims where trapped in classrooms and didn't fight back. He could have likely achieved those numbers with a bat, knife, or frying pan.

Wtf do you mean when you say you're disturbed by me using that tragedy as an example? What are you implying?

 

Out of the 174 that he fired, how many hit the victims? I ask because the more important question in this discussion isn't how many he fired, but how many rounds hit their mark, and what was the average amount of rounds it took to kill the 32 victims? This would give us a better understanding of how effective target loads are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that pistol rounds suck compared to rifle rounds, but the VaTech shooter killed 32 people with a 9mm and a .22.

.22LR also accounts for the most firearm deaths annually.  By your lgoic, we should be using 10/22s and 22/45s for HD.  What I don't understand is why you wouldn't want every advantage in defense of yourself and/or loved ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.22LR also accounts for the most firearm deaths annually. By your lgoic, we should be using 10/22s and 22/45s for HD. What I don't understand is why you wouldn't want every advantage in defense of yourself and/or loved ones.

Why would you assume I think we should be using 10/22's or the like for HD simply because I posed a question? Why would you assume I wouldn't want every advantage when it comes to defending my family? I simply posed a question and now you assume that I think 22's are the best at home defense ammo. I'm simply asking a question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wtf do you mean when you say you're disturbed by me using that tragedy as an example? What are you implying?

 

Out of the 174 that he fired, how many hit the victims? I ask because the more important question in this discussion isn't how many he fired, but how many rounds hit their mark, and what was the average amount of rounds it took to kill the 32 victims? This would give us a better understanding of how effective target loads are.

No Sig226GuyNJ nothing against you, not implying anything. Sorry for the confusion, I can see how what I wrote may be taken that way.

 

I don't like acknowledging bad guys. I don't like using anything they do for any purpose other than to learn how to defeat them faster. It disturbs me that these things happen at a fundamental level.

 

Even knowing misses v. hits, or the average hits to death, etc... won't prove anything useful. There is a lot more info to be had, distinctions to be made, and data to pore over, before we can find anything useful in a wikipidea post about this instance. For example:

 

- How many died from .22 hits v 9mm hits?

- How many times were each victim hit?

- How many hits were after the victim was already incapacitated by previous rounds?

- How many were incapacitated instantly v. lingered?

- All hits aren't equal - I doubt any two people were hit in the exact same spot. Which hits were more effective? Which rounds hit where?

- All victims aren't equal - unless there were clones there - critical areas are very slightly different for everyone, not to mention people are 3D. A slight change in body position can cause huge changes in the size of a critical area.

 

The only true measure of the effectiveness of a round is to compare it amongst like rounds in a calibrated and controlled environment. Expansion, projectile weight retained, wound channel/cavity, velocity, penetration, etc... can be measured and energy can be calculated. Those numbers can then be applied to different medium in theory. By studying this ballistic theory you can pick the best round for you based on your goal.

 

Unfortunately, ballistically speaking, all you have going into a gunfight is said theory. Everything else is anecdotal and specific to that particular shooting.

 

Ft hood shooter, Columbine, VA Tech, most police shootings, while some useful info can be gleaned, it is all anecdotal as no two gunfights are identical. Hits that should be instantly fatal often aren't. People routinely drop instantly from hits that should be survivable.

 

All you can do is pick the offering you think will work best for your situation and do your best to put as many rounds into the area of the body statistically known to cause incapacitation the fastest as quickly as possible. Barring a CNS hit, rapid incapacitation is a hydraulic problem - let fluid out, let air in. The faster this happens, the faster a threat stops being a threat.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you assume I think we should be using 10/22's or the like for HD simply because I posed a question? Why would you assume I wouldn't want every advantage when it comes to defending my family? I simply posed a question and now you assume that I think 22's are the best at home defense ammo. I'm simply asking a question.

Because the way you posed you question basically treats all projectiles as equals simply because some fuckwad who should be burning in the hottest hellfire for eternity managed to kill a bunch of people with FMJs.  My remark about .22LR is an extension of that position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No Sig226GuyNJ nothing against you, not implying anything. Sorry for the confusion, I can see how what I wrote may be taken that way.

I don't like acknowledging bad guys. I don't like using anything they do for any purpose other than to learn how to defeat them faster. It disturbs me that these things happen at a fundamental level.

Even knowing missed v. hits, the average hits to death, etc... won't prove anything. There is a lot more info to be had before we can find anything useful in a wikipidea post about this instance.

For example:

- How many died from .22 hits v 9mm hits

- How many died instantly v. lingered

- All hits aren't equal - I doubt any two people were hit in the exact same spot.

- All victims aren't equal - unless there were clones there - critical areas are very slightly different for everyone, not to mention people are 3D. A slight change in body position can cause huge changes in the size of a critical area.

The only true measure of the effectiveness of a round is to compare it amongst like rounds in a calibrated and controlled environment. Expansion, weight retained, wound channel/cavity, velocity, etc... can be measured and energy can be calculated. Those numbers can then be applied to different medium in theory. You can pick the best round for your mission by studying this theory.

Unfortunately, ballistically speaking, all you have going into a gunfight is theory. Everything else is anecdotal and specific to that particular shooting.

Ft hood shooter, Columbine, VA Tech, most police shootings, all anecdotal. Hits that should be instantly fatal often aren't. People drop instantly from hits that should be survivable routinely.

All you can do is pick the offering you think will work best for your situation and do your best to put rounds into the area of the body statistically known to cause incapacitation the fastest.

 

 

Thank you for your explanation. I hate that these evil things happen just like you. I'm sorry for taking our statement the wrong way.

Excellent points to support your argument and after reading your last two posts, I do agree.

 

Because the way you posed you question basically treats all projectiles as equals simply because some fuckwad who should be burning in the hottest hellfire for eternity managed to kill a bunch of people with FMJs.  My remark about .22LR is an extension of that position.

Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't implying that all rounds are the same. I was just asking if HD rounds make that big of a difference, or at least that's what I was trying to ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The objective isn't to kill the assailant anyway. It is to incapacitate him or her as soon as possible to stop the threat.

 

If I ground up a .22 bullet and put it in your food it might lead to lead poisoning and kill you but would be useless as a method of defending an attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you seen the expansion tests for federal guard dog?  Doesn't expand much at all.  They used to make Federal EFMJ which had more power behind it than Guard Dog...  I would go with Critical Defense/Duty over Guard Dog.

Nick, I did not base my choice on ballistics but rather avoiding any appearance of using hollow points in a self defense legal situation. Will rethink that and perhaps swap in the Hornaday Critical Defense.

 

Cameron, I tried the Corbon Powrball after you mentioned it in your Utah/Fl class last year. However I experienced several failure to feeds in my Glock 19 and that turned me off. I think I still have some left so will give them another try.

 

Regards, Art

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick, I did not base my choice on ballistics but rather avoiding any appearance of using hollow points in a self defense legal situation. Will rethink that and perhaps swap in the Hornaday Critical Defense.

 

Cameron, I tried the Corbon Powrball after you mentioned it in your Utah/Fl class last year. However I experienced several failure to feeds in my Glock 19 and that turned me off. I think I still have some left so will give them another try.

 

Regards, Art

 

Good - Don't want you to have to defend yourself with inferior ammo due to stupid legality issues.

 

Personally, I have Winchester Ranger Black Talon in my HD Mags :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I started my research on what brand and design of ammunition to purchase as my home defense ammo, I tried to keep that choice in perspective.  I had already decided that I am most comfortable with a full-size 9mm semi-automatic handgun for my most readily accessible HD weapon. I also understand that the advancements in technology and design have resulted in 9mm ammo improving dramatically in the past 10+ years, closing the gap with the .45 ACP ammo for so-called “stopping power” for the desired effective HD use.

Yet I am also keenly aware that the choice of HD ammo is just one of the important factors in this equation, that also includes:
- Having the proper mindset and plan on dealing with an intruder and practicing it.
- Practice shooting my HD handgun, both stationary at the range, as well as moving in a tactical way in a controlled safe training environment.
- Continued regular practice firing both my HD ammo and range ball ammo for more consistent and accurate marksmanship
- Understanding and committing that I only will fire my weapon at a person as a last resort to protect and defend myself and family inside our home.

At this point in time, I do not think there is one 9mm ammo that is far and above better than all the others.  There is just a group of very good, consistent performing, high quality manufactured rounds from different manufacturers, any of which would serve adequately as HD ammo.  On caveat, I only wanted to purchase and use American made ammo for its more consistent quality control.  So, after doing a fair amount of research, as well as asking a number of instructors at my ranges, I chose for my HD ammo, to go with Speer Gold Dot +P 124 grain which is a jacketed hollow point (JHP) design.  This is the ammo used by the NYC Police Department.

 

The Speer GD’s are bonded core bullets, which tend to hold together better and result in a distinct large diameter expansion upon impact, more so than jacketed bullets, therefore causing more internal tissue damage and resulting in the desired “stopping power” that one seeks in a HD ammo round.  As a hollow point, it should not “over penetrate”, compared to a ball ammo design, so concern about continued collateral damage is minimized.

By now, I have put over 300 rounds of these Gold Dots through my HD handgun, as well as my other handguns to ensure that it feeds properly, without any jams or FTF issues.  I also use Speer Lawman 124 grain ball ammo as my regular range practice ammo, which has similar ballistic characteristics to GD's and is therefore a good practice compliment to the GD’s.

 

Knowing that others have tested and highly rate the HD ammo I have chosen provides me with peace of mind, that those more knowledgeable than me approve of it.

Here are some 3rd Party sources that explain the advantages of the Speer Gold Dot's better than I can:

 

The 5 Best 9mm Self-defense Loads
2-10-2015
Outdoorhub.com

http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/02/10/5-best-9mm-self-defense-loads/
 

CHOOSING THE RIGHT SELF DEFENSE AMMO
http://www.gunsandammo.com/shoot101/choosing-the-right-self-defense-ammo/#ixzz44LvftU3g

Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P 124 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim
4-17-2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXfDcY-0gU

 

AVB-AMG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We used to issue and use .40 Gold Dot 180gr for duty and Gold dot in 9mm and .45ACP for off duty. We have since switched to the .40 180gr Federal HST for duty ammo (corresponding loads of FED HST in 9mm and .45ACP for guys that have off duty guns in those calibers). The HST is the next generation of the Gold Dot design (Fed and Speer both being owned by ATK) with improved expansion and weight retention through most mediums. We do not issue the bonded stuff, just the jacketed. (It is not barrier blind and we don't want it to be. P=Plenty when shooting through glass or other bullet killers.)

 

Now it looks the the next evolution is might be back in Speer's court with their G2 offering after the FBI solicited a new 9mm round - Speer 147gr G2 JHP. Designed for use in full size guns (barrels longer than 4") it allegedly is a hybrid of the Gold Dot and HST bullet geometry with a polymer tip like the Hornady Critical Defense/Duty.

 

Truth be told, I am not sold on it. I am satisfied with the test results I have personally witnessed from the HST and am not in a rush to switch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...