Transporting loaded mag's?

[AVB-AMG 530]

Hey guys.... remember, this is NEW JERSEY!!!

 

Common sense, logical thinking and rational reasoning is not part of the legislative mindset when it comes to firearms. The laws do not make any sense and are knee-jerk reactions by lawmakers who believe that they "have to do something...anything" to appease the majority of their constituent voters in response to the all too frequent lone wacko wolf mass shootings occurring nationally.

 

I have been in a class where NJ Attorney Evan Nappen has advocated his legal opinion that a loaded magazine may be considered as part of the gun and therefore constitutes a loaded gun, even if it is in a separate locked container, (yes I agree that makes no sense!). But I am not an attorney and respect his extremely cautious approach and will heed his advice to error on the side of clear caution to protect myself in the unlikely event that I am stopped by a LEO for any reason on my way to and from a range.

 

For the approximately 60 seconds it takes to load bullets into a magazine with a speed loader at the range, is it really that important to you to save one friggin minute to pre-load your magazines at home and run the risk, however remote it may be, that you could put yourself in a real legal predicament that will cost you a fair amount of money, let alone time in jail....?

 

I for one do not think it is worth it and wait until I get to the range and am in my port to load my magazines and do not feel that I have lost any time enjoying my shooting time.

 

AVB-AMG

[Kevin125 4,772]

Jeez, i must have opened a can of worms; i can't say im surprised as i did realize our laws were ridiculously 'gray' when it comes to quite literally everything, but not this gray.

Like i said, they'd be locked in ammo boxes, and i CAN simply refuse to open said locked boxes; no reason why an officer would need to see what was in there if i just told him it was ammo.

I don't think anyone would actually go to jail over it, though. Might be a hell of a legal PITA, though. I may just call my local PD and ask them, and try and get it in writing.

Its a topic thats been knocked around before. Same discussion. Different day.

 

It never occurred to me to grab mags and ammo and load mags at home. I'd rather just load up and go. Ammo is already in an ammo can and the mags are usually in the long case for the AR. I just throw the rifle in the case, grab everything and go. Pistols..., ammo is in a can as well and mags are in the range bags. I just toss the cased pistols in the range bags and go.

 

Seems like a waste of time to me.

[W2MC 1,699]

Hmmm...one of the best firearms lawyers in the state tells you its a dumb thing to do....and you want to argue with him?

[Soup76 4]

Not worth the risk...Your trusting the cops know the law...

 

 

Hey guys.... remember, his is NEW JERSEY!!!

Common sense, logical thinking and rational reasoning is not part of the legislative mindset when it comes to firearms.  The laws do not make any sense and are knee-jerk reactions by lawmakers who believe that they "have to do something...anything" to appease the majority of their constituent voters in response to the all too frequent lone wacko wolf mass shootings occurring nationally.

 

I have been in a class where NJ Attorney Evan Nappen has advocated his legal opinion that a loaded magazine may be considered as part of the gun and therefore constitutes a loaded gun, even if it is in a separate locked container, (yes I agree that makes no sense!).  But I am not an attorney and respect his extremely cautious approach and will heed his advice to error on the side of clear caution to protect myself in the unlikely event that I am stopped by a LEO for any reason on my way to and from a range.

 

For the approximately 60 seconds it takes to load bullets into a magazine with a speed loader at the range, is it really that important to you to save one friggin minute to pre-load your magazines at home and run the risk, however remote it may be, that you could put yourself in a real legal predicament that will cost you a fair amount of money, let alone time in jail....?

 

I for one do not think it is worth it and wait until I get to the range and am in my port to load my magazines and do not feel that I have lost any time enjoying my shooting time.

 

AVB-AMG

 

 

It may very well be legal, however...

 

It simply isn't worth the risk.  Each person is going to accept their own risk tolerance...and for me this is one I don't accept.  

 

Would it be nice to pre-load...yup.

 

Would it be great to stay out of jail...YUP!

[SgtToadette 59]

The only gray area is one that Nappen invented. It's legal.

[checko 180]

I don't get it. There have been zero examples in New Jersey of anyone being hassled over this and I'm sure that people have been driving around with loaded mags for a long time. I could pick any one I know, gun nut or not , hand them an unloaded pistol and they will say that it is not loaded. If I then put a magazine in their back pocket , literally all of them will say the gun is still unloaded. I've never taken the course but I'm sure they still teach cops in the academy the difference between loaded and unloaded. I get the concern, I do, but we're literally inventing a law out of thin air to further restrict ourselves.

[Purple Patrick 638]

Ianal nor do I ever want to hire Evan to back me up. With that said I load my mags at home.... shit most are already loaded and I just take them out of the gun and throw them in my back

 

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[WP22 1,558]

Ianal nor do I ever want to hire Evan to back me up. With that said I load my mags at home.... shit most are already loaded and I just take them out of the gun and throw them in my back

 

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Right. All my mags are already loaded. I'm not unloading them, drive to the range, load them, drive home and load them again. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Soup76 4]

I don't get it. There have been zero examples in New Jersey of anyone being hassled over this and I'm sure that people have been driving around with loaded mags for a long time. I could pick any one I know, gun nut or not , hand them an unloaded pistol and they will say that it is not loaded. If I then put a magazine in their back pocket , literally all of them will say the gun is still unloaded. I've never taken the course but I'm sure they still teach cops in the academy the difference between loaded and unloaded. I get the concern, I do, but we're literally inventing a law out of thin air to further restrict ourselves.

I don't consider it a "law" that we created...simply a "best practice" that I choose to exercise.

 

Just because I know what's right, doesn't mean the LEO will agree.

[Barms 98]

You guys must be getting tired. You all missed the aspect of "locked" too. No law says "locked". Just case or separate.

 

I don't have a lock on anything I bring to range.

[Howard 538]

I went to a seminar given by Frank Pisano who is a NJ lawyer that has a practice involving firearms in NJ.  He stated that while nothing in the written law prohibits transport of loaded magazines that case law in NJ has found people guilty of transporting loaded firearms simply because they had loaded magazines and said not to do it.  You could probably contact him to find out specific cases if you are really interested.  I look at it this way, if a lawyer who specializes in this area of the law says not to do it, it is probably prudent to take his advice.  When I go to the range I typically only load a few rounds in a magazine anyway.  Full mags at the range more often than not result in your quickly converting dollars to noise with little skill assessment or value.

[NJGF 375]

It is a bit of a pain when you are finished at the range and have to unload 6 magazines before driving home. A pain but considering the uncertainty I do it. Others may choose not to and that is fine.

 

As Howard mentioned the statues are only component of the law and it is difficult for non-lawyers to be up on all of the case law. We have to be careful just using the statutes and thinking we know what the law is.

[checko 180]

I'd be VERY interested to see the cases Mr. Pisano is referencing. Maybe I will try to email him later today

 

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[mikeyjones 88]

I'd be VERY interested to see the cases Mr. Pisano is referencing. Maybe I will try to email him later today

 

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Me too.

 

Please post if you find out.

 

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[checko 180]

I'm doing a double at work today so of anyone feels up to it feel free to email him lol

 

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[Lambo2936 297]

The fact that the laws are so messed up that half of the gun population overregulates themselves is ridiculous.

To be honest, unless there is clear cut evidence that itll land me in jail, i'm probably going to do it and keep them in locked cases. Why anyone would think that a gun in a locked case, in a locked solid metal topper that cant be opened without me pulling over and turning the truck off (uses same key as truck. PITA to pull the key out each time) is loaded when the mags are in the back seat, ALSO locked in cases, is beyond me. But, we ARE in the PRNJ, and the fact is itll come down to how many liberals and how many republicans are in the stands.

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

I guess the consensus says that the $30 Lula speedloader is cheaper than the possible gray area of the police LOL

[Lambo2936 297]

I already loaded the mags. Not about to unload them. And i have a speedloader, but 10+ ar mags, 4 1911 mags 4 15-22 mags and all my buddies as well take time to load. And thats on the light side lol.. nevermind having to unload a few before going anywhere.

[Purple Patrick 638]

I know it was just brought up but guns don't need to be locked I've been sent home from a gun shop twice with a gun in a black garbage bag

 

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[fishnut 2,358]

Ianal nor do I ever want to hire Evan to back me up. With that said I load my mags at home.... shit most are already loaded and I just take them out of the gun and throw them in my back

 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

same here! I don't lock my guns when transporting them. Gun socks don't have a way to lock them and my mags are always loaded, I just keep them seperated from the guns. But if someone wants to lock up their guns and empty their mags, have fun I'll be shooting while your loading up. Just curious how many of you guys who unload your mags and lock up your guns, do you guys have a "truck gun"? As in a long gun that you always keep in a case in your vehicle for just in case? I have one and can't imagine taking the time to unlock a case and load a mag all while the "shit is hitting the fan"?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Hmmm...one of the best firearms lawyers in the state tells you its a dumb thing to do....and you want to argue with him?

Gladly. Evan tells you to do a lot of unnecessary things, and not because the law is confusing. Because the police simply don't know the law.

 

Nappan can tell you to be cautious, but then again people are arrested in this state for pistol grip pump shotguns.

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

same here! I don't lock my guns when transporting them. Gun socks don't have a way to lock them and my mags are always loaded, I just keep them seperated from the guns. But if someone wants to lock up their guns and empty their mags, have fun I'll be shooting while your loading up. Just curious how many of you guys who unload your mags and lock up your guns, do you guys have a "truck gun"? As in a long gun that you always keep in a case in your vehicle for just in case? I have one and can't imagine taking the time to unlock a case and load a mag all while the "shit is hitting the fan"?

 

I agree with you on shit hitting the fan, but to be honest I don't think its legal in this state to just have a truck gun ready to go - just re-reading the law on NJSP website someone correct me if I'm wrong:

1. The firearm is unloaded
2. The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
3. The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
4. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console

Someone could argue that an unlocked case under your bench seat is directly accessible IMO.  The way I interpret it, is if you have a minivan, wagon, SUV, Pickup Truck, basically anything besides a passenger car or coupe with a trunk, firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container, unloaded.  Now, whether or not the analysts here want to take that as a locked range bag for both, or a separate ammo and gun case, thats fine with me - I probably would rather put the loaded mags with the locked ammo case and leave the locked rifle/pistol case separate so as to not put them together and be construed as a loaded weapon.

 

Both my cars do not have separate trunks so I always lock my ammo boxes and range bag zippers personally

[checko 180]

Misread your post. I'm sorry

[NJGF 375]

Even the NJSP website gets it wrong. If you have your NJ FPID you can take your rifle/shotgun and hold it outside of the window of your car as you are driving and you are OK as long as it's not loaded. OTOH I bet you will be pulled over!

[Barms 98]

Count me in the camp of calling BS on the "there was a case that said...." I gave up on believing that anytime a lawyer says "there was a case" but didn't actually cite the case as rule when i heard the line. "The lawyer said there was a case for denying the FID because he pestered too much"

 

Just like "Post pics or it didnt happen". Post case number or it didn't happen

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Even the NJSP website gets it wrong. If you have your NJ FPID you can take your rifle/shotgun and hold it outside of the window of your car as you are driving and you are OK as long as it's not loaded. OTOH I bet you will be pulled over!

 

LMAO - You bet your ass you would - what if we all just carried our unloaded shotguns/rifles around open carry and unloaded?  Maybe if a few thousand did this over a few months the "gun stigma" of NJ would be de-sensitized a bit.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

LMAO - You bet your ass you would - what if we all just carried our unloaded shotguns/rifles around open carry and unloaded? Maybe if a few thousand did this over a few months the "gun stigma" of NJ would be de-sensitized a bit.

Heads would explode and the law would be changed witin the week. Long guns would be treated as pistols faster then you can say Loretta Weinberg

[NJGF 375]

^ Yup. 

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Weinberg would probably have a heart attack first - but yes you're right it is a pipe dream LOL

[AVB-AMG 530]

It is a bit of a pain when you are finished at the range and have to unload 6 magazines before driving home. A pain but considering the uncertainty I do it. Others may choose not to and that is fine.

NJGF:

 

What am I missing here? When I am at the range, I always shoot every round that I have loaded into my magazines. Can't think of a time when I have fired only some rounds in a fully loaded magazine. So when I am finished at the range all of my magazines are empty. I guess some people may do that but not really sure why....?

 

I agree with you on shit hitting the fan, but to be honest I don't think its legal in this state to just have a truck gun ready to go - just re-reading the law on NJSP website someone correct me if I'm wrong:

• The firearm is unloaded
• The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
• The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
• If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console

Someone could argue that an unlocked case under your bench seat is directly accessible IMO. The way I interpret it, is if you have a minivan, wagon, SUV, Pickup Truck, basically anything besides a passenger car or coupe with a trunk, firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container, unloaded. Now, whether or not the analysts here want to take that as a locked range bag for both, or a separate ammo and gun case, thats fine with me - I probably would rather put the loaded mags with the locked ammo case and leave the locked rifle/pistol case separate so as to not put them together and be construed as a loaded weapon.

 

Both my cars do not have separate trunks so I always lock my ammo boxes and range bag zippers personally

Ricky_Bobby:

 

One of my vehicles has a trunk and the other, a SUV, does not (obviously). Regardless of which vehicle I drive to the range, my firearm(s) and ammo go in the far back: in the car trunk or rear luggage area of the SUV, with the horizontal vinyl cover shade pulled over everything for visual concealment. I do this because I drive not only in NJ, but also to destinations in both PA and NC, which requires driving through DE, MD, VA, WV.

 

Similar to you, I have formed the habit of storing and transporting my ammo in their original cardboard boxes, (either 20 or 50 rounds, depending on the caliber), placed inside MTM plastic ammo cans that are locked with a simple keyed padlock. It is easier to stack and store the various ammo calibers at home this way as well. I also use simple TSA-approved cable combination luggage locks to secure the zippers on my range bag(s) that may have one or more handguns inside, as well as my rifle and/or shot gun bag, to satisfy any state's "locked" provision that I am traveling through or to. I put the handguns in separate silicone treated pistol socks for corrosion prevention, that are then put inside separate single soft zippered pistol cases that hold multiple unloaded magazines that are specific to that handgun. I find that is a good way not to mix up the different magazines for the different handguns.

 

Some folks here may consider all this overkill, but it works for me. As I stated in my earlier post #31 on this thread, I would rather take extra cautious measures, than just winging it and hoping that I am not stopped by a LEO, for whatever reason, on my trip to or from the range and then taking a chance that his interpretation of the law may not coincide with the actual law.

 

AVB-AMG