Transporting loaded mag's?

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

NJGF:

 

What am I missing here?  When I am at the range, I always shoot every round that I have loaded into my magazines.  Can't think of a time when I have fired only some rounds in a fully loaded magazine.  So when I am finished at the range all of my magazines are empty.  I guess some may people do that but not really sure why....?

 

Ricky_Bobby:

 

One of my vehicles has a trunk and the SUV does not (obviously).  Regardless of which vehicle I drive to the range, my firearm(s) and ammo go in far back: in the car trunk or rear luggage area of the SUV, with the horizontal vinyl cover shade pulled over everything for visual concealment.  I do this because I drive not only in NJ, but also to destinations in both PA and NC, which requires driving through DE, MD, VA, WV.

 

Similar to you, I have formed the habit of storing and transporting my ammo in their original cardboard boxes, (either 20 or 50 rounds, depending on the caliber), placed inside MTM plastic ammo cans that are locked with a simple keyed padlock.  It is easier to stack and store the various ammo calibers at home this way as well.  I also use simple TSA-approved cable combination luggage locks to secure the zippers on my range bag(s) that may have one or more handguns inside, to satisfy any state's "locked" provision that I am traveling through or to.  I put the handguns in separate silicone treated pistol socks for corrosion prevention, that are then put inside separate single soft zippered pistol cases that hold multiple unloaded magazines that are specific to that handgun.  I find that is a good way not to mix up the different magazines for the different handguns. 

 

Some folks here may consider all this overkill, but it works for me.  As I stated in my earlier post #31 on this thread, I would rather take extra cautious measures, than just winging it and hoping that I am not stopped by a LEO, for whatever reason, on my trip to or from the range and then taking a chance that his interpretation of the law may not coincide with the actual law.

 

AVB-AMG

 

^I am in agreement with your style and agree with all the above - it doesn't take me much time to put the boxes of ammo I need and I usually can get away with easily taking one locked ammo box to the range, along with my locked range bag, or rifle case if I'm shooting that - I err on the side of caution as well, and I agree with you in regards to not unloading the mags before leaving, 95% of the time I have finished the mags by the time I'm done, but if I'm not, I just put them in the ammo box and lock it, its separately locked from my range bag or rifle/pistol case and in my rear compartment area so its not a worry for me. 

 

However, now that I'm looking back on such a simple question we really have a lot of thinking going on here LOL

[ogfarmer 138]

WGAS!

[NJGF 375]

NJGF:

 

What am I missing here?  When I am at the range, I always shoot every round that I have loaded into my magazines.  Can't think of a time when I have fired only some rounds in a fully loaded magazine.  So when I am finished at the range all of my magazines are empty.  I guess some may people do that but not really sure why....?

 

AVB-AMG

At the end of a match you would have additional rounds in your mags.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

NJ has you guys being good complacent sheep. No offense, and not trying to be confrontational but screw these assholes who think you have to do anything more then required. If you have to take time out of ur day to make a point its worth it, IMO.

 

I will await for any ounce of proof(case law) stating otherwise. But right now the only case I can think of is People v. Clark out of the California appeals court which had a pretty solid ruling on the issue in favor of an empty gun is just that, an empty gun.

[fishnut 2,358]

I agree with you on shit hitting the fan, but to be honest I don't think its legal in this state to just have a truck gun ready to go - just re-reading the law on NJSP website someone correct me if I'm wrong:

1. The firearm is unloaded
2. The firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
3. The ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle
4. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console

Someone could argue that an unlocked case under your bench seat is directly accessible IMO.  The way I interpret it, is if you have a minivan, wagon, SUV, Pickup Truck, basically anything besides a passenger car or coupe with a trunk, firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container, unloaded.  Now, whether or not the analysts here want to take that as a locked range bag for both, or a separate ammo and gun case, thats fine with me - I probably would rather put the loaded mags with the locked ammo case and leave the locked rifle/pistol case separate so as to not put them together and be construed as a loaded weapon.

 

Both my cars do not have separate trunks so I always lock my ammo boxes and range bag zippers personally

I will correct you because you are wrong. That info is for non FPID holders traveling into or through the state. Check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fj25uABaE

[fishnut 2,358]

NJGF:

 

What am I missing here?  When I am at the range, I always shoot every round that I have loaded into my magazines.  Can't think of a time when I have fired only some rounds in a fully loaded magazine.  So when I am finished at the range all of my magazines are empty.  I guess some may people do that but not really sure why....?

 

 

I guess you don't reload or don't have that many mags. I reload and have a bunch of mags. I also usually close out EFGA during the summer so when its time to stop I cant finish what's left in the mag and im sure as hell not going to strip live rounds out just to load them up again as soon as I get home or get to my PA stash house where I keep my standard capacity AR mags

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

I will correct you because you are wrong. That info is for non FPID holders traveling into or through the state. Check out this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fj25uABaE

 

THANK YOU - I was looking for that kind of a validation in case I was wrong, and the way the NJSP site is worded it does sound like just general transport and not necessarily us normal FPID holders - I just looked it up since obviously they couldn't do something easy as to say "for non FPID holders"

 

So cased and unloaded is fine as far as the firearm goes, Nappen doesnt mention but keep the magazines/ammo in a separate bag?  This could sure simplify my range transport lol

[NJGF 375]

So cased and unloaded is fine as far as the firearm goes, Nappen doesnt mention but keep the magazines/ammo in a separate bag?  This could sure simplify my range transport lol

Doesn't have to be a separate bag, just a separate compartment is OK (or the ammo can just be in a box).

[Smokin .50 1,907]

THIS AGAIN???????????????   Here we go confusing NJ Firearms law with FOPA transportation requirements!

 

What if I told you all that I could take a M-1 Garand, unloaded, no case or trigger lock, (in other words a BUCK-NAKED War Horse), simply toss it into my sedan's trunk, and then take Bandoleers of LOADED 8-round En-Bloc CLIPS of .30-06 M2 Ball ammo (that I just bought from a friend, estate, gun shop, or that I got gifted to me at Christmas) and splay them out all over the trunk of my sedan and I'd be GTG LEGAL for INTRA-STATE transport?  10 En-Bloc CLIPS of LOADED ammo in each Badoleer = 80 rounds of ammo that has a 1K yard KILL RANGE!  Is THAT simple fact mind-blowing, or WHAT?  You mean I don't have to separate ammo from En-Bloc CLIPS to bring it home?  YES, that's just what I'm saying, lol!

 

See, here's the problem:

 

Most of you are guilty of asking for permission to breathe AIR!  It's not written anywhere that you're ALLOWED to do it, so you conveniently make up your own rules as you go simply because of urban MYTH!  If something IS illegal, you're not only told it's ILLEGAL, but you're also told how bad the wrist slap, fine or imprisonment is.  Therefore we can breathe AIR while transporting our LOADED EVIL CLIPS & War Horse to the Range.

 

In order for one to begin to understand firearms law in NJ, one must first look to the EXEMPTIONS and the EXCEPTIONS.  If there is NOT an exception and/or exemption for "wrong-doing", then the rule you're all worried about DOES NOT IN FACT EXIST!

 

Asking a Lawyer for an interpretation on loaded mags is like asking a Priest if you can use condoms.  At the end of the day ALL YOU GET IS AN OPINION!

 

Since loaded En-Bloc CLIPS have been sold in Bandoleers for generations (my M-1 was re-barreled in '43), and NO ONE has ever gotten jammed-up for THAT, what makes you think that all of a sudden a loaded Glock mag from a wunder-nine is a game-changer?  Laws don't work that way Boyz!  You see, what's good for the Goose, is good for the Gander!  Simply because your mag holds more than my En-Bloc CLIP, doesn't make it more deadlier or more "sorta-illegal".  LAWS have to be applied UNIFORMLY, regardless of the weapon's date of manufacture, caliber, platform (rifle, pistol or even scattergun), etc.  So a 6-round HKS speedloader, if loaded, is just as "illegal" as a Glock or a 2011 double-stack mag for a Fat-Bottom Girl, or a Saiga scattergun or a AR-15, or a 50 year old bolt-action Remington that takes a mag!  

 

Everyone has to take-off the Horse Blinders, learn to think about firearms laws in generalized terms, and stop asking questions about a specific situation and then fail to extrapolate the interpretation to include ALL firearms, even my Garand from '43.  ALL 16 round mags are illegal if they're for a semi-auto.  Don't matter the platform or caliber of semi-auto.  Tube mag or bottom-feeder.  .22 or 12 ga. (alas, scatterguns are especially EVIL and have their own WRITTEN LAW for 6 rounds MAX---a LAW that's easily found because it in fact EXISTS).  

 

There is a Cottage Trade industry in NJ that prays upon the uninformed Gun Owner.

[fishnut 2,358]

easy smokin 50, don't think that everyone here does not know the difference between FOPA laws and the rules for transportation with a FPID. Yes this question does come up often and yes it is searchable on this forum but all the messed up laws in NJ can be pretty confusing and overwhelming for someone new to shooting sports. I have been shooing almost my entire life and dident really have an understanding of transportation laws until I had been on this forum for a while. It was YOU and a few other longtime members who explained transportation laws and other NJ gun laws to me.    

[Smokin .50 1,907]

easy smokin 50, don't think that everyone here does not know the difference between FOPA laws and the rules for transportation with a FPID. Yes this question does come up often and yes it is searchable on this forum but all the messed up laws in NJ can be pretty confusing and overwhelming for someone new to shooting sports. I have been shooing almost my entire life and dident really have an understanding of transportation laws until I had been on this forum for a while. It was YOU and a few other longtime members who explained transportation laws and other NJ gun laws to me.    

I think I get your meaning even though you MIGHT have written it incorrectly.  And YES, the confusion about INTRA-state transport and INTER-state transport (FOPA) will be with us until we DIE!  

 

LOL, i just made myself and my lovely Bride a nice breakfast.  It worked better than a Snickers, lol, so I'm back to "my PITA jovial self"!  

 

It would do everyone here a bit of good to go pay to belong to a private club and/or pay as a guest to shoot the club's leagues as a non-member, as it would be ENLIGHTENING education-wise.  Folks from multiple states show-up, without their "papers" (NJFPID Card), and they do so following FOPA rules, bringing UNREGISTERED DEATH MACHINES in every platform into the PRNJ and yet they somehow escape NJ's clutches month after month, match after ADVERTISED match, and most of them stopped to pee, eat, get gas, and any other common-sense thing they felt like!  And this has been going-on for DECADES!  Simply attending an organized league's match run at a local NJ private club range will prove it just by looking at license plates!  Out of state competitors come from a full range of disciplines, from Bullseye to USPSA, and yes, even Bowling Pin matches too!  So WHERE exactly does it say that you need an NJFPID card to transport a gun (even a hand gun)?  Yep, it's in there, but what folks don't do is READ THE EXEMPTION that ALLOWS IT!

 

OK, off for a road trip to PA so I can massage 90 round AR drums till I can get an erection, lol!

[Purple Patrick 638]

Well I encountered a new one today. Took the ar out to heritage today and I had to unload all my already loaded mags so they could check them for steel core. Kind of sucked and haven't had to do that before but whatever. It wasn't busy and they let me shoot over an hour anyway

 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[jeff47 30]

I don't think the issue is whether or not it's legal, I think we all believe it is, but whether or not we want to sacrifice time and money to prove it. I have been told by certain cops that they would hassle me for having loaded magazines but I've also had cops (friends) ask me what the statutes say on hollow points because they weren't sure and didn't want to give out incorrect info.

 

The laws here are a muddled joke. Sure it's ludicrous but I don't knock anyone for being overly paranoid in this police state.

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Well I encountered a new one today. Took the ar out to heritage today and I had to unload all my already loaded mags so they could check them for steel core. Kind of sucked and haven't had to do that before but whatever. It wasn't busy and they let me shoot over an hour anyway

 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

I believe but don't quote me that RTSP also has this policy because they don't want people shooting cheap TulAmmo ec steel at the range its probably a beast with dirty ammo to keep the air decently clean - not sure if they would make you unload every bullet out of your handguns to check for steel or just visually see the top load -

 

Do you go to Heritage in Burg or in Rahway or Easton to shoot?

[Purple Patrick 638]

I believe but don't quote me that RTSP also has this policy because they don't want people shooting cheap TulAmmo ec steel at the range its probably a beast with dirty ammo to keep the air decently clean - not sure if they would make you unload every bullet out of your handguns to check for steel or just visually see the top load -

 

Do you go to Heritage in Burg or in Rahway or Easton to shoot?

Nope had to unload all my mags and they check it with a magnet. They did not check my handgun ammo. All this while I literally had the ammo can filled with all the same exact 223 ammo. Fwiw the guy was very courteous about it and it didn't penalize my range time

 

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[Purple Patrick 638]

Easton is the only one with a firearm range

 

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[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Yeah I figured they would check the rifle ammo completely just bc the loads are large - glad to hear the guys were nice and let you shoot longer :thumbup:

 

EDIT: I thought so but I was just making sure I didn't miss any new developments recently LOL

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I don't think the issue is whether or not it's legal, I think we all believe it is, but whether or not we want to sacrifice time and money to prove it. I have been told by certain cops that they would hassle me for having loaded magazines but I've also had cops (friends) ask me what the statutes say on hollow points because they weren't sure and didn't want to give out incorrect info.

 

The laws here are a muddled joke. Sure it's ludicrous but I don't knock anyone for being overly paranoid in this police state.

Well if that's the case, then why does the same (loaded mags are legal, RIGHT?) question keep getting ASKED?  For YEARS!  And YEARS!

 

If something has never been a prosecutable offense in the past, why keep asking?  And worse yet, lots of folks here have it wrong to begin with, mainly due to myth being reincarnated.  So I have to politely disagree with your statement that "we all believe it is".

 

Everyone needs to stop narrowing what their minds wish to explore, and instead tell yourself, "OK, if law X was applied to every gun, would it make sense"?  "Would it be enforceable"?  A general approach will yield accurate answers.  Asking about hand gun mags when no laws exist about them (other than a 15 round max), and forgetting about 50 year old bolt-action rifle mags is very shortsighted.  A mag is a MAG.  It doesn't matter what gun it goes into...........and those pesky M-1 Garand En-Bloc CLIPS are sold LOADED since WW2.  

[mipafox 438]

Full mags at the range more often than not result in your quickly converting dollars to noise with little skill assessment or value.

Oh, you have no idea.

 

It is a bit of a pain when you are finished at the range and have to unload 6 magazines before driving home. A pain but considering the uncertainty I do it. Others may choose not to and that is fine.

 

The only thing I ever use a LULA for is UNLOADING mags. They will unload any mag (except they won't fit BETAs) in a few seconds.

[MartyZ 692]

I'm not arguing this point in any way, I too sometimes go to the range with loaded mags, and sometimes I don't. I just have a question regarding case law, if NJ really does treat a loaded mag the same as a loaded mag gun then what will distinguish one case from the other? Is there actual language in the case transcripts that say loaded mag vs loaded gun if the LEO flat out says loaded gun?

[High Exposure 5,664]

The only thing I ever use a LULA for is UNLOADING mags. They will unload any mag (except they won't fit BETAs) in a few seconds.

Same here. They suck to load with.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I'm not arguing this point in any way, I too sometimes go to the range with loaded mags, and sometimes I don't. I just have a question regarding case law, if NJ really does treat a loaded mag the same as a loaded mag gun then what will distinguish one case from the other? Is there actual language in the case transcripts that say loaded mag vs loaded gun if the LEO flat out says loaded gun?

^^^THIS is a very good question and one I don't have an exact answer for since I'm not a paid defense attorney working by the hour on a case.  My gut feeling is at least one of the more well-known cases of the last five years might have had loaded mags, and we heard ZIPKIS from the defense counsel about making an oral argument in open court.  We also heard ZIPKIS about this subject in any motions that have been filed on behalf of either the clients OR the state.  After Blue Tent Sky and the judge in that trial being FIRED for incompetence (because he wouldn't properly charge the jury), I highly doubt the terms are interchangeable (loaded mag vs. loaded gun).  We would have heard SOMETHING on social media by now if folks were getting "jammed-up" for loaded mags.  After all, look at the stink about the actor w/ an airsoft gun (who just happens to be an ex-con) filming a low-budget movie in Woodbridge Twp.  You get the idea.....

 

Just sayin'........

[AverageJoe 95]

I believe but don't quote me that RTSP also has this policy because they don't want people shooting cheap TulAmmo ec steel at the range its probably a beast with dirty ammo to keep the air decently clean - not sure if they would make you unload every bullet out of your handguns to check for steel or just visually see the top load -

 

Do you go to Heritage in Burg or in Rahway or Easton to shoot?

Its not the steel case we care about, its the steel core.

[jeff47 30]

Because it doesnt matter what we believe, it matters what people have to defend in court from what the cops incorrectly believe. Most dont want to be the trst case. People are improperly arrested in NJ on bs gun charges regularly enough. After $10k and 30 days in jail and the loss of your livelihood, you prove that your right. Great. Small consolation really.

 

For many on this forum, firearms are just a hobby or a guilty pleasure they'd have no problem giving up if push came to shove. I didn't say I liked it or even agreed with it, just that understood it.

 

Well if that's the case, then why does the same (loaded mags are legal, RIGHT?) question keep getting ASKED? For YEARS! And YEARS!

 

If something has never been a prosecutable offense in the past, why keep asking? And worse yet, lots of folks here have it wrong to begin with, mainly due to myth being reincarnated. So I have to politely disagree with your statement that "we all believe it is".

 

Everyone needs to stop narrowing what their minds wish to explore, and instead tell yourself, "OK, if law X was applied to every gun, would it make sense"? "Would it be enforceable"? A general approach will yield accurate answers. Asking about hand gun mags when no laws exist about them (other than a 15 round max), and forgetting about 50 year old bolt-action rifle mags is very shortsighted. A mag is a MAG. It doesn't matter what gun it goes into...........and those pesky M-1 Garand En-Bloc CLIPS are sold LOADED since WW2.

[Indianajonze 379]

for me it's simple. if the interpretation is that the mag is part of the gun, fine, i'll play along. i have plenty of mags. keep one unloaded mag in the gun as it's part of the gun (and makes the gun therefore complete), have the other 3 to 8 mags loaded and ready to go in a separate compartment. done. zero issues any way you interpret things in this dumb state

[Indianajonze 379]

Hmmm...one of the best firearms lawyers in the state tells you its a dumb thing to do....and you want to argue with him?

 

because he's basing his opinion on no factual info. i'd argue with him too. he's wrong and i defy him or anyone to show me the legal precedent where it's proven otherwise

[Howard 538]

^^^THIS is a very good question and one I don't have an exact answer for since I'm not a paid defense attorney working by the hour on a case.  My gut feeling is at least one of the more well-known cases of the last five years might have had loaded mags, and we heard ZIPKIS from the defense counsel about making an oral argument in open court.  We also heard ZIPKIS about this subject in any motions that have been filed on behalf of either the clients OR the state.  After Blue Tent Sky and the judge in that trial being FIRED for incompetence (because he wouldn't properly charge the jury), I highly doubt the terms are interchangeable (loaded mag vs. loaded gun).  We would have heard SOMETHING on social media by now if folks were getting "jammed-up" for loaded mags.  After all, look at the stink about the actor w/ an airsoft gun (who just happens to be an ex-con) filming a low-budget movie in Woodbridge Twp.  You get the idea.....

 

Just sayin'........

Well Dave, I am with you on most things - but not sure I can join your camp here.  As you say you are not a lawyer, and I am not one either.  My experience in business is when you hire an expert to get their professional opinion you should be listening to their opinion, otherwise you are wasting your money.  We have seen in this thread several instances of lawyers who presumably know their trade telling us that case law says you should not have loaded magazines.  That is enough for me.  Why go through the risk when the experts say not to?  There are million and millions of pages of case law that actually define our laws above and beyond the legal code.  It would probably take any of us years to go through things, but they are saying it is there and they are gun rights lawyers.  This is really such a trivial thing that I don't want to risk being that one test case.  Sure I might win, but I might not - the risk is just not worth the reward.  Unfortunately that is just the way our laws work.  I can actually see the logic behind not having loaded mags allowed.

 

As you know the general rule is no ammo at a safe table.  But at least one shooting discipline sets the rule that the ammo must only be more than one step away from the gun.  That means that you can have ammo in a case or box on the safe table, but no loose ammo on the table.  It also means that you cannot have a loaded magazine on the table.  I can understand how a court could interpret a loaded magazine as being only one step from the gun and have ruled that they consider it equivalent to having a loaded gun.  That is no different than the law that unlocked guns and ammo should not be in the same container.  Thus, out of reasonable prudence I'll opt to not drive around with loaded magazines in the People's Republic of New Jermany as the slight inconvenience if you really consider it as such is not worth the potential risk. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

One step away from the gun? I have seen a judge rule that unless a single action of the gun will chanmber a round, then it's not loaded.

The was the case in Cali where some shit prosecutor tried to claim a shotgun with a a saddle was a loaded gun.

How is a loaded magazine any different then bare cartidges? I can drop a round into a chamber in the same amount of steps. It's not really about the magazine, it's about if or how easily a bullet can be chambered.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Well Dave, I am with you on most things - but not sure I can join your camp here.  As you say you are not a lawyer, and I am not one either.  My experience in business is when you hire an expert to get their professional opinion you should be listening to their opinion, otherwise you are wasting your money.  We have seen in this thread several instances of lawyers who presumably know their trade telling us that case law says you should not have loaded magazines.  That is enough for me.  Why go through the risk when the experts say not to?  There are million and millions of pages of case law that actually define our laws above and beyond the legal code.  It would probably take any of us years to go through things, but they are saying it is there and they are gun rights lawyers.  This is really such a trivial thing that I don't want to risk being that one test case.  Sure I might win, but I might not - the risk is just not worth the reward.  Unfortunately that is just the way our laws work.  I can actually see the logic behind not having loaded mags allowed.

 

As you know the general rule is no ammo at a safe table.  But at least one shooting discipline sets the rule that the ammo must only be more than one step away from the gun.  That means that you can have ammo in a case or box on the safe table, but no loose ammo on the table.  It also means that you cannot have a loaded magazine on the table.  I can understand how a court could interpret a loaded magazine as being only one step from the gun and have ruled that they consider it equivalent to having a loaded gun.  That is no different than the law that unlocked guns and ammo should not be in the same container.  Thus, out of reasonable prudence I'll opt to not drive around with loaded magazines in the People's Republic of New Jermany as the slight inconvenience if you really consider it as such is not worth the potential risk. 

It's OK Howard, it will take some time for you to fully understand since you're relatively new to the firearms game.  The ruling you speak of NEVER HAPPENED YET.  The law you quote about "unlocked guns and ammo should not be in the same container" HASN'T HAPPENED YET in the PRNJ (unless you're quoting federal FOPA Guidelines and interchanging the two).

 

You my friend need some Rosey S.H.I.T. (Special High Intensity Training)!  Several adult beverages are called-for so your mind can be OPENED to accept what's actually written for NJ intra-state transport.  You might consider it mind-blowing to learn that unloaded 1911's and .357 revolvers are placed (without trigger locks) into Shooters' Bags with LOADED MAGS and Speedloaders and moonclips every day on the way to matches throughout the people's Republic, lol!  All this separate container BS is from FOPA, not NJ statutes.  Even NJ SUV owners throw stuff all together to go to the range.  They merely place their gun bags out of arms' reach (like as far from the driver's seat as possible), and then cover it with a blanket.  If going out of state to a range or match, then they follow FOPA....  In NJ it's all about INTENT.  If it's out of reach and out of sight and hard to get to, you don't have EVIL INTENT.  I'm not from the school of thought that we need to make ourselves defeated victims of tyranny IN ADVANCE! 

 

All that being said, I realize that business people hire Experts and usually follow the Experts' OPINIONS.  Lawyers will ALWAYS fall-back to a defensible position of "if this happens, then this could happen", especially when they're giving it away for a reduced rate or FREE.  It's in their nature to advise clients to be as cautious as possible.  They stay out of trouble that way.  If Patton listened to his "Lawyers" instead of rescuing the 101st Airborne, we'd all be speaking German right now........  Let's hope that the term "Safe Table" never makes it into a NJ court of law.  I could just see all of the stupid looks on the juror's kissers while they try to fathom the term, with half of them thinking a liquid spill is easily cleaned-up, lol!

[Howard 538]