Po6 NJ Carry challenge: COUNT I – VIOLATION OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT

[JohnnyB 4,325]

I am glad for him and hope that he keeps up the fight but as Nick pointed out, he won by passing the JUSTIFIABLE NEED test! No real victory here for the rest of us.

[Newtonian 453]

As you know I brought up the "what's in it for us" point long ago. I even mentioned it to Albert when he was attending a religious ceremony here in Newton last year. He told me at the time this was NOT only on behalf of the Po6. 

 

I believed him enough to donate $115.

 

So here's the point. You knew I'd get to it right?

 

Albert Almeida, please tell us or have your lawyer tell us on what basis you received your permit, if there are any restrictions, and what next steps your team is planning that might interest us as NJ gun owners and potential donors.

 

Until we hear that I'm going to withhold judgement.

 

But Albert, if I have to wait as long as I waited for my shirt, well, you never know what I might post here. 

[Newtonian 453]

Not to be a total wet rag here but imagine what gun owners in 47 other states might think of all this celebrating over one guy getting a carry permit.

 

It's kind of embarrassing. Like hitting a bullseye after a horrendous flinch and bragging to the RO.

 

I tell this stuff to my son in law from Alabama and his reaction is "Whaaaaat??"

[siderman 1,137]

I am glad for him and hope that he keeps up the fight but as Nick pointed out, he won by passing the JUSTIFIABLE NEED test! No real victory here for the rest of us.

No, he didnt pass the JN test, there is no test, that assumes an actual standard exists. We all of course know the truth is that NJ is a blanket shall not issue and he got his after yrs of fighting and the threat of more national publicity looming for NJ& CC. I'm happy for him and looking forward to where the PO6 (5?) is going.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

Albert Almeida's statement on facebook:

 

 

I want to thank Stephen Stamboulieh, Ryan and Alan Beck for many things. But for one, for believing in us in NJ.

Together, with other individuals that need to remain nameless that have been helping behind the scenes while in their home State's that is not NJ, (you know who you are T.) These men have done a lot so far, for us in NJ and they continue to work hard, because this battle is not over yet.

They have stepped in to this battle, because our own in NJ have refused to, lacked the motivation, played politics and called us "fanatics" for being to aggressive...just because we want to defend ourselves against the evil elements that haunt us daily. Well, if that makes us a fanatic, I'll wear that smear name with pride.

I want to thank my fellow Patriots at the Party of Six, Mark Cheeseman, David Schulze and my fellow plaintiff, Michael Tumminelli for their relentless efforts, support and for also continuing the fight with new cases. Yes, there are more cases and more to follow in the near future with the Partnership of NJ2AS, headed by Alexander P. Roubian.

I do not know where I stand going forward, (will I even be allowed, that's not my expertise in answering that) but as of now, the fight continues on and as planned..and yes, with me in it.

Why with me in it? Because as I said from the beginning of this battle in 2013, it was started for ALL OF US, Not just for 1 person. Many in the 2A community are against this action, many didn't want to see a class action, many said I was selfish, many say the time ain't right...well, my life, your life, should not be at the mercy of the naysayers because the "time ain't right" for them?

We shall not gamble with our lives, so I ask you that you continue supporting the Party of Six and NJ2AS because this fight just started.

Again, I thank the law team that believes in us, in NJ. Steve has accomplished more for us in 2 months, than what many could have done in the years they've been trusted by us to do for years, but have not.

To those that didn't believe in us, or have no energy in fighting the NJ machine, maybe you should stick to being a Corporate Attorney, Real Estate Attorney, or an over priced criminal defense attorney.

It is time for a change, demand accountability of those living in the stone age with very little negotiation skills or pandering to the left. You send in your hard earned donation dollars, demand more than just a news letter filled with 95% advertising, but with no real substance.

If you don't fight the good fight, you won't win and if they see you don't want to win, they won't fight.

RISE UP, fight and let's continue the winning.

To all of the supporters, I thank you as well. Without you, we would have no voice and continue to be ignored. .but they are hearing us...thank you.

Please visit www.partyofsix.org, nj2as andand so Steve's page for the NRA Board and help continue supporting the fights.

 

NJ2AS statement:

 

 

NJ2AS President Alexander Roubian: (phone # deleted)
August 19, 2016

For Immediate Release: NJ Conceal Carry Permit Finally Issued

After dealing with years of life-threatening situations from violent gang members in Newark, and battling almost 3 years in New Jersey's courts for his basic constitutional and human rights, Albert Almeida has been issued his concealed carry permit.

Albert, a father of two girls, owns a property management company which collects rent from many buildings in Newark and surrounding areas. After having his life threatened several times by tenants who were known gang members and convicted violent felons, he sought a conceal carry permit which requires approval from his local police chief and a Superior Court Judge. After his permit application was denied due to not satisfying the albatross of justifiable need, he filed a lawsuit against the State.

Albert spent years in court to exercise his constitutional and natural right to protect himself--a basic right which is exercised by tens of millions in other states, including 11 states which do not require any form of permit (Constitutional carry).

"Only in New Jersey do the Prosecutors and Judges claim the reason why they plea bargain with violent felons (by providing reduced sentencing and dropping the worst offenses) is because the courts are overwhelmed, but then simultaneously fight honest law-abiding citizens to the fullest extent. New Jersey citizens want nothing more than to protect themselves against the same violent felons which the courts plea bargain with and release from prisons early under compassionate release programs" said Alexander Roubian, President of the New Jersey Second Amendment Society.

Albert's lead attorney, Stephen Stamboulieh, said: "It is a fantastic result, given that Mr. Almeida has waited years to exercise his Second Amendment rights in New Jersey, only to be forced to file a federal lawsuit to be vindicated.  While this process is slow and takes a considerable amount of time, energy and resources, we are pleased that New Jersey finally admitted Mr. Almeida met justifiable need; something it knew back when it first denied his permit in October, 2013 and gave him three options: which included to shut down his business, conduct his private business in a different manner, or hire a private armed security guard."

Albert's organization, the Party of Six, the New Jersey Second Amendment Society, and attorneys Stephen Stamboulieh, Ryan Watson, and Alan Beck, will continue to work for New Jerseyans and seek to restore their Second Amendment rights through strategic litigation

[DeerSlayer 241]

Really? Please read the information below - it is *brilliant* -

 

 

 

Amazing - I thought there was no JN? I thought there was no standard? I thought that they were fighting JN as a concept and not demonstrating that someone actually *HAS* a JN, and shouldbe issued a permit, because they need it to protect themselves......???????

 

Once again - putting sprinkles on a steaming pile of dog crap and trying to make it seem like pudding -

The case is still going, the lawyer put in a request that both plantiffs be issued permits during the case. Albert was granted his. Michael Tummineli was not. So the case is still moving forward, it's not closed, its not ended, it's not going away. This is the result of a good lawyer, fighting the way this case should be fought. I know it's difficult to believe that a lawyer within a month of taking on a NJ carry case, could get someone their permit so quickly. But it's because you're used to seeing shit 2A litigation in this state, for so many years. This is the reason this law team was chosen for this case.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Not to be a total wet rag here but imagine what gun owners in 47 other states might think of all this celebrating over one guy getting a carry permit.

 

It's kind of embarrassing. Like hitting a bullseye after a horrendous flinch and bragging to the RO.

 

I tell this stuff to my son in law from Alabama and his reaction is "Whaaaaat??"

No one is celebrating, except Albert a little probably. I just updated that the judge issued his permit as per the law teams request while the case is underway. We can celebrate when every lawful NJ resident, has the option of open or consealed carry, with or without permit.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

The case is still going, the lawyer put in a request that both plantiffs be issued permits during the case. Albert was granted his. Michael Tummineli was not. So the case is still moving forward, it's not closed, its not ended, it's not going away. ...

 

Thanks for that - that was a point I was missing.  So Almeida getting his permit is more like an injunctive action at this point.

[Newtonian 453]

The case is still going, the lawyer put in a request that both plantiffs be issued permits during the case. Albert was granted his. Michael Tummineli was not. So the case is still moving forward, it's not closed, its not ended, it's not going away. This is the result of a good lawyer, fighting the way this case should be fought. I know it's difficult to believe that a lawyer within a month of taking on a NJ carry case, could get someone their permit so quickly. But it's because you're used to seeing shit 2A litigation in this state, for so many years. This is the reason this law team was chosen for this case.

From your mouth to God's ears. I was not kidding that major progress will be met with significant contribution from me.

 

In the meantime I feel like someone watching through the fence of a gulag while one guy was let out because of a paperwork error. And my papers are in order.

[DeerSlayer 241]

From your mouth to God's ears. I was not kidding that major progress will be met with significant contribution from me.

 

In the meantime I feel like someone watching through the fence of a gulag while one guy was let out because of a paperwork error. And my papers are in order.

I get it, I feel the same way. One day the allies will free us. In the meantime let's keep digging that escape tunnel. Hey anyone seen Steve McQueen around?

[bhunted 887]

I get it, I feel the same way. One day the allies will free us. In the meantime let's keep digging that escape tunnel. Hey anyone seen Steve McQueen around?

More like Hogan's Heroes...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

Trust me I believe in the cause - I just wonder what happens when Tuminelli's permit is issued -

 

Screw press releases, we need the lawyers and Almeida/Tumminelli sucking up News 12, 101.5, News at 7, Good Day in New York airtime and making rounds on television and everywhere possible.

 

The state thinks if they quietly issue a permit then it will go away as quietly.  Not for the rest of us though.

[DeerSlayer 241]

Trust me I believe in the cause - I just wonder what happens when Tuminelli's permit is issued -

 

Screw press releases, we need the lawyers and Almeida/Tumminelli sucking up News 12, 101.5, News at 7, Good Day in New York airtime and making rounds on television and everywhere possible.

 

The state thinks if they quietly issue a permit then it will go away as quietly. Not for the rest of us though.

It's the party of 6, there are 4 others waiting already to jump in when Albert and Michael get their permits. And beyond that, anyone that has applied and been denied. There's a lot of us.

[Lambo2936 297]

I absolutely agree about going to the Media. We need this case plastered all over the place to raise awareness and to open peoples eyes. Any rational person would agree that people such as Albert NEED a firearm for protection.

[Ricky_Bobby 130]

It's the party of 6, there are 4 others waiting already to jump in when Albert and Michael get their permits. And beyond that, anyone that has applied and been denied. There's a lot of us.

 

So I can apply and be denied and I join the suit and then you're telling me the lawyer is going to get me a pristine Jersey CCW permit even though I only go into Newark to eat rodizio at the Ironbound?  I'm still trying to figure out the goal here - I know you all want your CCW's - the question is how many of you all are normal every day get up and go to work citizens who want your CCW for the ability to defend yourself against an unknown criminal encounter that may or may not happen -

 

Or are you all citing that you work in the hood/ghetto and have had people threaten you, etc and meet the "justifiable need" standard on our books -

 

If it's the latter - it is not of much help to us "common folk" NJ citizens who just want to exercise our right.

[DeerSlayer 241]

I absolutely agree about going to the Media. We need this case plastered all over the place to raise awareness and to open peoples eyes. Any rational person would agree that people such as Albert NEED a firearm for protection.

Yeah, the media is totally looking to push a pro 2A story... they would probably spin it like this: "Pro 2nd amendment White gun nuts, in fear of Black Lives Matter protests, are petitioning the court demanding consealed carry rights in NJ." And it would be a 30 second blurp on the 5 o'clock news.

[Kevin125 4,772]

I don't see how this helps someone who doesn't collect rent in crappy areas of Newark, or doesn't find themselves in a similar situation under a similar specific threat.

 

The way I read the comments of the lawyer, they may have issued the permit just to make him go away.

 

Someone explain to us how this changes "justifiable need" in this state?  My concern is that it solidifies it and make it MORE difficult to use simply "self defense" as a "justifiable need".  Without a specific history of threats, it appears you are out of luck here.

 

As I think of it... this feels more like observing someone getting a permit because they are connected.  Rather than anyone applying getting that same permit.

 

I'm glad he got it.  Clearly, he needs it.  But I'm not seeing it changes anything.

[DeerSlayer 241]

So I can apply and be denied and I join the suit and then you're telling me the lawyer is going to get me a pristine Jersey CCW permit even though I only go into Newark to eat rodizio at the Ironbound? I'm still trying to figure out the goal here - I know you all want your CCW's - the question is how many of you all are normal every day get up and go to work citizens who want your CCW for the ability to defend yourself against an unknown criminal encounter that may or may not happen -

 

Or are you all citing that you work in the hood/ghetto and have had people threaten you, etc and meet the "justifiable need" standard on our books -

 

If it's the latter - it is not of much help to us "common folk" NJ citizens who just want to exercise our right.

I'm a Plummer I drive around NJ at all hours of the day & night, in all kinds of places. Sometimes with large amounts of cash on me. Beating two crack heads breaking into my work truck with a 24" aluminum pipe wrench, during a 2AM emergency service call isn't my idea of a good time. But it's happened... I think I have justifiable need, but that's only my opinion.

 

Contact PO6 on their website or join their Facebook groop, and ask if you can join the fight if you've been denied. That's how this group started.

[DeerSlayer 241]

So I can apply and be denied and I join the suit and then you're telling me the lawyer is going to get me a pristine Jersey CCW permit even though I only go into Newark to eat rodizio at the Ironbound? I'm still trying to figure out the goal here - I know you all want your CCW's - the question is how many of you all are normal every day get up and go to work citizens who want your CCW for the ability to defend yourself against an unknown criminal encounter that may or may not happen -

 

Or are you all citing that you work in the hood/ghetto and have had people threaten you, etc and meet the "justifiable need" standard on our books -

 

If it's the latter - it is not of much help to us "common folk" NJ citizens who just want to exercise our right.

No not all of the 6 work in shitholes. Albert is actually the only one of them. Michael is a civilian defense contractor that has access to top secret documents at times. He works in Wharton at Picatinny Arsenal. Isis threats, and the fact that he's retired military, are his reason for justifiable need.

[John Willett 70]

So the lead plaintiff in a federal 2A case out of New Jersey has a permit issued because the state says now that he has sufficient "need", and we are supposed to act like its never happened before?

 

Seriously, I am glad that Albert got his permit.  Hopefully Michael gets his too.  Not sure what else has changed...?

[DeerSlayer 241]

So the lead plaintiff in a federal 2A case out of New Jersey has a permit issued because the state says now that he has sufficient "need", and we are supposed to act like its never happened before?

 

Seriously, I am glad that Albert got his permit. Hopefully Michael gets his too. Not sure what else has changed...?

Once they get issued, the next guys in line have no credible threats I'm aware of. Just "self defense" That will be the point when the case will continue through the federal courts on appeals, with the next plantiffs to get a ruling on the constitutional credibility of Justifiable need. Because chances are they won't meet the NJ definition. Albert and Michael getting their permits will be the easy part, the hard part will follow. But every movement needs a starting point, and the ball is now rolling... definitely not supposed to act like this never happened before, we know it has in the past. But what this is illustrating in the long term to the federal court is that, even if you do have justifiable need which is now proven and documented by the Alberts case, the state of NJ still doesn't issue, unless you sue the state in federal court. Thus providing proof that NJ denies people that meet their own standards for a permit. Thus their entire system is a sham, and needs to be struck down as a bullshit scheme to keep everyone from obtaining a permit. That's when the court will order a new system be put into place like they did in Illinois with McDonald. That's the angle of this suit, and what makes it different from all the rest before it. Same idea as Drake, different strategies. With the right minds behind Drake, we could have had a decision back when Scalia was still in the Supreme Court. Unfortunately the lawyers behind that case screwed up, and now we have to overcome that hurdle.

 

 

BTW John have you, and Albert kissed, and made up yet? I hate to see in-fighting within our circle of associates. You're both intelligent members of this community of ours, it's a shame we can't all be cordial with each other. Forgive and forget, concentrate on a common goal together.

[DeerSlayer 241]

You all really need to make a PO6 tavern meeting. They will explain everything, much better than I can convey the message here. If you can make it to one, I highly recommend it. It's a couple hours of your lives, and a Q&A session afterwards.

[Lambo2936 297]

Whens the next one?

[DeerSlayer 241]

Whens the next one?

Probably in South or central jersey. Next time the lawyer flies out to NJ. Soon. Are you on Facebook?

[Lambo2936 297]

I'm 22. Of course i'm on facebook hahaha.
Do you have a link to their group by any chance? Ill follow them or whatever.
I live in Woodbridge but hang out in East Brunswick often. If the next one isn't too far i'll probably swing by.

[DeerSlayer 241]

I'm 22. Of course i'm on facebook hahaha.

Do you have a link to their group by any chance? Ill follow them or whatever.

I live in Woodbridge but hang out in East Brunswick often. If the next one isn't too far i'll probably swing by.

Pm sent.

[PDM 91]

one of the first things they teach you in law school is that the facts are everything. "The law" doesn' exist in a vaccum. Legal principles, whether based on case law, statute or regulation, are only meaningful when applied to the facts at hand. The facts of Almeida's case were dramatic and could relatively easily be seen as falling under the admittedly nebulous and arbitrary justifiable need standard. If someone without direct and dramatic threats against them makes the exact same argument I imagine they will fail. In other words, in my view the simple assertion that "self defense" satisfies the justifiable need standard without documented and dramatic threats of imminent bodily harm is not one iota stronger than it was before Almeida got his permit. And there had been no ruling by the court so no legal precedent has been set. Put simply, this "victory" does absolutely nothing to help anyone other than Albert Almeida and perhaps, at best, other people who can demonstrate significant and imminent threats or bodily harm AND who are willing to spend the time and mone to fileva lawsuit.

[GrumpyOldRetiree 38]

.... Put simply, this "victory" does absolutely nothing to help anyone other than Albert Almeida and perhaps, at best, other people who can demonstrate significant and imminent threats or bodily harm AND who are willing to spend the time and mone to fileva lawsuit.

I agree almost 100% with what you wrote above. Where I disagree is that I think the PO6 case and NJ relenting in Mr. Almeida's case demonstrates the unreasonableness of NJ's position on concealed carry. They WILL NOT issue a permit

until they are "on the federal courthouse steps". Here they issue the permit to the plaintiff with the strongest case, trying to weaken the collective position of the remaining plaintiffs. This is almost exactly what happened in the Drake case where at the

last minute they issued a permit to the kidnap victim Mr. Mueller. He too had an extremely strong case, so they "gave" it to him to get him out of the case. There are probably other similar situations in NJ history. IANAL, but I think that these cases

could be used to demonstrate a pattern of abuse of the "justifiable need" process. While this won't help the "shall issue" cause, it may force the state, at some point, to apply a more reasonable interpretation to justifiable need. In this state, I

would consider that progress.

[Lambo2936 297]

I have an idea.

I'll stage an abduction and abduct you and 'torture' you for a week, and then a few weeks later you do the same to me.
If we can fabricate some long a** list of stuff that's happened to us and then all sue together, we can all get permits!
On a serious note, i now wish that every time something happened i called the cops. The problem is, snitches get stitches (lead to the head) in Newark, so if i called every time someone made a threat i'd be on the phone with the Police all the time, and i'd also probably be dead by now. Therefore, while the police WAS called quite a few times to clear the building after a break in and such, i dont think there is much as far as actual records or paperwork proving as such, nor are there incident reports for every time someone said something in my direction. The cops never showed up, let alone bothered doing any paperwork. I can probably call the alarm company and show them how many times people have gotten in and i've had to go resecure and inspect doors, gates, etc. at 3AM, but they don't care.. That judge likes it when i have to do crap like that, as it pays his salary. To him its job security.
For me? It means i have to wake up in the middle of the night, walk past my large safe full of legal firearms, and kiss my wife/fiance and daughter goodbye in hopes that ill be back in a few hours. There's nothing i like more than having to do that...

[Lambo2936 297]

I agree almost 100% with what you wrote above. Where I disagree is that I think the PO6 case and NJ relenting in Mr. Almeida's case demonstrates the unreasonableness of NJ's position on concealed carry. They WILL NOT issue a permit

until they are "on the federal courthouse steps". Here they issue the permit to the plaintiff with the strongest case, trying to weaken the collective position of the remaining plaintiffs. This is almost exactly what happened in the Drake case where at the

last minute they issued a permit to the kidnap victim Mr. Mueller. He too had an extremely strong case, so they "gave" it to him to get him out of the case. There are probably other similar situations in NJ history. IANAL, but I think that these cases

could be used to demonstrate a pattern of abuse of the "justifiable need" process. While this won't help the "shall issue" cause, it may force the state, at some point, to apply a more reasonable interpretation to justifiable need. In this state, I

would consider that progress.

I am not too familiar with the PO6 plan, but i would like to believe that this is their goal. For starters, maybe we can get what the hell 'justifiable need' means put on paper...

I'd like to believe that i myself have justifiable need, but apparently unless i have literally already been killed, that is not the case.