Why an AR?

[jeff47 30]

I agree with just about everything as above. You can shoot a ludicrous number of calibers if you want to go crazy, from 5.56, 5.45, 300, 6.5G, 7.62x39, 9mm etc. Those are just the common calibers. Of course there are more options for handguards, lights, lasers, stocks and barrels than just about any other platform on the earth.

[GRIZ 3,369]

These numbers are similar in weight and slightly faster than standard 45acp. Add that to the fact that there really isn't any good expanding 300blk subsonic ammo on the market and you essentially are shooting 45acp fmj. Not that i would want to get shot with that but that's the math.

You get about 1000 fps with 230gr 45 acp in a while 16" barrel. The 300 will shoot flatter and retain velocity better due to ballistic coefficient. Not a big advantage all in all unless one wants to argue it's "better".

[n4p226r 105]

You get about 1000 fps with 230gr 45 acp in a while 16" barrel. The 300 will shoot flatter and retain velocity better due to ballistic coefficient. Not a big advantage all in all unless one wants to argue it's "better".

I guess I should clarify. I'm just suggesting if one wanted to use a 300blk for home defense, even suppressed, supersonic is the way to go. Subsonic, while I'm sure has some tactical role, I'm not sure what that is.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

It won't make the crack when it breaks the sound barrier.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GRIZ 3,369]

I guess I should clarify. I'm just suggesting if one wanted to use a 300blk for home defense, even suppressed, supersonic is the way to go. Subsonic, while I'm sure has some tactical role, I'm not sure what that is.

A 300 blackout supersonic gives you ballistics of a 7.62x39. That also means excessive penetration of that caliber in building materials compared to a 5.56.

 

The 300 blackout surpressed meets these specs as a tactical weapon:

 

1. Reliable functioning in AR platform

2. 130db surpressed

3. Close range penetration similar to 7.62x39

4. 600 ft/lbs energy

 

You can meet 1,2, and 4 with a 5.56.

 

You can meet 2 and 3 with a 45 acp carbine with 500 ft lbs of energy.

 

You can get 1 and 2, adequate 3, and 400 ft lbs with a MP 5 or 9 mm AR.

 

To use Jeff Cooper's response to some things in the firearms world the 300 blackout is "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist" AFAIC.

 

It won't make the crack when it breaks the sound barrier.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

9mm, 45 acp, 5.56, 12 ga, and 300 blackout unsurpressed all put out 150-160 db. About the same as a M26 fragmentation grenade at 50 ft. Shooting a 44 mag puts out about 165 db. No real advantage to using an unsurpressed 300 to save your hearing. That all makes enough sound to be painful. I know there is a significant difference but most consider 140 db or more painful. You can do more damage to your ears playing music at 100-110 db for prolonged periods.

 

Too many people put too much into eliminating the "crack of the sonic boom". Yes, a 300 blackout subsonic with a surpressor puts out about 130 db. That will damage your hearing.

 

You need to put things in prespective. I can only speak of my own experience. I was exposed to small arms fire, explosions, outgoing and incoming artillery fire literally thousands of times before I was 19 without hearing protection. I didn't refuse to wear it, it just wasn't given or feasible for what I was involved. For example, a 8" howitzer gives off 180 db, way more than any small arms. If you are on a gun crew you couldn't wear ear plugs and hear the firing commands, what charge powder and fuse setting. Today, gun bunnies have more sophisticated hearing protection.

 

Since then, my exposure to to loud noise has been more limited. The source of that noise has been the same but limited to much less. However I also have a few hundred hours in small aircraft which can cause significant hearing damage.

 

Did all this result in significant hearing damage? Sure it has but I am far from deaf. I do have a hearing aid but don't wear it often. Any ambitions to be a piano tuner have been shattered. One can probably do that electronically now. I have friends who are musicians with more hearing damage.

 

I don't think my ears are tougher than anyone else's. The question is will discharging a firearm in a confined area without a surpressor damage your hearing permanently with or without a surpressor? Sure it will. Will it make you permanently deaf? I would say 99.99% no.

 

Shooting in SD situation without hearing protection? A bit of hearing damage vs dead? Tinnitus vs dead? I know what I've picked.

[njpilot 671]

GRIZ, I think Shawn was referring to shooting supersonic as opposed to subsonic. I've shot both with my 300 suppressed and although the supers are not as loud as a 5.56, it's a lot louder than the subs.

 

Don't know if you've shot 300 BLK subs suppressed, but I could shoot mine all day without hearing protection very comfortably. No worry about hearing damage. The steel hit at 100 yds is louder than the sound at the muzzle.

 

5.56 is much louder suppressed than 300 subs.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Don't know if you've shot 300 BLK subs suppressed, but I could shoot mine all day without hearing protection very comfortably. No worry about hearing damage. The steel hit at 100 yds is louder than the sound at the muzzle.

5.56 is much louder suppressed than 300 subs.

I've never shot a 300 blackout. I have shot of variety of firearms with suppressors I don't know what kind of suppressor you're using but most will get noise down to 120-130 db. I think you're fooling yourself about shooting all day long without worry of hearing damage. My research shows any prolonged exposure above 85 db will cause hearing damage. You are damaging your hearing at 120-130 db. It does take longer for the damage to occur.

 

5.56 would be louder than 300 sub as you have the sonic boom. Not a valid comparison.

 

If you like a 300 go for it. I just consider it a designer caliber with little, if any real need that cannot be adequately filled by an existing caliber.

[Newtonian 453]

What do you guys think of this: http://bit.ly/29Mueot ?

 

It preserves calibers for me. I can always swap this out for something else no?

[Sota 1,191]

I like to group weapons in to GTF classes...

GTF Off me (pocket pistols, like my S&W 442)

GTF Away From me (9/40/45/38/357 handguns, like my P30 or Beretta 92)

GTF Out Of My House or Of fMy Lawn (12ga shotgun, lever action rifle in 357/44)

GTF Off My Block (5.56/7.62)

I Can Still Fucking See You A Mile Away (.338 or anything else for really reaching out and touching someone)

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Looking at some reviews they seem pretty good. For sure good for that price. It seems to be a little better than PSA's PTAC line and maybe not as good as their freedom or premium lines. Some people say their rifles didn't like steel cased, but that's true of many rifles. It will probably function well and you are probably not trying to shoot a gnat at 300 yards anyway. Once you have it worst case you can just change out a part or two and you'll have a high quality rifle.

If you decide to build one yourself out of quality components it'll probably cost you a little more than $100 more than that.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Also if you buy that if you ever want a rifle in 5.56 all you need is a bolt ($50) and a barrel ($85-$300+ depending on quality)

[njpilot 671]

I've never shot a 300 blackout. I have shot of variety of firearms with suppressors I don't know what kind of suppressor you're using but most will get noise down to 120-130 db. I think you're fooling yourself about shooting all day long without worry of hearing damage. My research shows any prolonged exposure above 85 db will cause hearing damage. You are damaging your hearing at 120-130 db. It does take longer for the damage to occur.

 

5.56 would be louder than 300 sub as you have the sonic boom. Not a valid comparison.

 

If you like a 300 go for it. I just consider it a designer caliber with little, if any real need that cannot be adequately filled by an existing caliber.

I hear what you're saying GRIZ. I tried attaching a video of me shooting it, but having technical difficulties. Last week I was shooting my 5.56 SPR and .308 bolt suppressed without hearing protection. It wasn't bad, but I'll admit that I wouldn't do it indefinitely without protection.

 

The 300 Blk is much quieter. I was out a few weeks ago with 2 friends and none of us were wearing protection when shooting subs.

 

Maybe my 26+ years and 8700+ hours of flying helicopters has already done some damage, but shooting the 300 isn't even slightly uncomfortable. 

 

I'll keep trying with the video. With the phone right behind me, the steel at 100 yds sounds louder than the report of the rifle.

[Newtonian 453]

Thank you all for the great advice. I will forward the most interesting posts to my son in law, and read through them again myself.

[Newtonian 453]

Many thanks to all the great advice provided in this thread.

 

Your informed reasoning pro-AR is much appreciated. I've spent hours educating myself.

 

Still, given the uncertainty in today's, er, event, I've decided to preserve calibers and go with 7.62 x 39. For me the recoil is negligible (granted I'm shooting from an SKS). I have no interest at this time in modifying the gun or caliber swapping either, although the latter might be a consideration down the road.

 

Can any of you recommend an accurate, dependable ak47-type rifle in 'x39? Price is not a huge issue. I'd prefer a wood stock but that's negotiable. After numerous commie mil-surp enterprises I'm not really keen on project guns but used is ok as long as the innards are sound. 

 

[High Exposure 5,664]

This thread may help you out:

 

http://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/83898-looking-for-a-ak/#entry1074408

 

There's a bunch more like it if you search.

[mipafox 438]

Because F**k Yeah!!!

[usnmars 136]

So you can compete with your wife in who's Tupperware is better

[mipafox 438]

So you can compete with your wife in who's Tupperware is better

That's Glock.

 

ARs are Legos. Get it straight

[SW9racer 262]

I am thinking Beretta ARX100

[Rob0115 1,105]

Chuck can tell you why.  

 

[leo-польд 35]

I am thinking Beretta ARX100

You can't remove bolt etc out of it without folding stock first. I don't think anything could be done about this.

[Screwball 483]

Ability to make it your own...

 

Was going to post a shot of each of my three, but realized I didn't have a current picture of my first AR. DPMS stripped lower, ACE stock, Spikes 5.56mm upper with AA piston kit, topped with an Aimpoint PRO and magnifier (have a Surefire 6PX on it, as well. But I also have a Safir .410 upper and a Spikes .22 upper with Lothar Walther barrel (Bushnell 3-9x scope). That was my first... so I wanted to just have one lower with a few different capabilities.

 

Then, I wanted a pistol caliber rifle to pair up with my Beretta CX4...

 

 

 

Spikes stripped lower, Macon Armory D/I .45 upper, with their USC magazine adapter. They just designed a new magazine that fits in the standard AR magazine well, and should have a 15 rounder out in the near future. Topped it with an Aimpoint CompM4s.

 

Then, I wanted something that wasn't black... and figured I'd extend my range a little bit.

 

 

 

I pieced it together, but Aero stripped lower, Aero built upper, topped with a Weaver 1.5-6x scope.

 

I may do one more... possibly an A1 or A2 build. And I may hide away a lower for a rainy day. But that is why I like an AR... you have a $100 lower, and you can do whatever you want to it.

 

I do have a WASR. I do have a Tavor. Have a Garand and a M1A. And have an SKS. While they are all great rifles... you don't have the flexibility of the AR platform. But being a somewhat modern US design (has a few years on the M1A/M14, and more on the Garand), still in use with the military, and somewhat affordable... you really have to come up with a "why not?"

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Very sleek looking rifles.

[Hyphessobrycon 0]

There are a ton of parts available and ammo cost isn't too bad in .223/5.56. Ar-15s are also relatively low priced compared to other modern sporting rifles.

[CageFighter 236]

im not into ARs, im into FN SCARs!    

[High Exposure 5,664]

The SCAR was a big disappointment. Lots of potential and it fell on its face.

[mipafox 438]

I used to poo poo the 300 BLK when it hit the scene. Years ago I was saying that subsonic it was just a .45, so why not use an SMG? Otherwise it's just a 7.62x39 or a .30-30, big whoop. I've come around and I will probably end up with one eventually.

 

Everything said here about the 300 is true. But the focus has been on it's limitations, not its advantages.

 

1. It is .30-30 (but with far superior ballistics) or a 7.62x39 (with somewhat superior ballistics).

 

I used to say, "big whoop." But now I look at it the other way. You know what? People like ARs. And sometimes people want something more than .223. For hunting deer, for example. And would rather use their AR for it. You still have a .223 with a different upper, and it's all the same rifle. That's a positive. Could you choose 6.8 or 6.5 instead? Sure. But it still does the job unless you need the $ix point five. It's also more accurate (generally speaking) than 7.62x39 or .30-30.

 

2. It's optimized for short barrels. 7.62, .30-30, and .223 are not.

 

3. It's one rifle.

 

That now does multiple things.

 

4. It's extremely quiet suppressed.

 

It's only the energy of a .45, albeit with a much better BC. Does that make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. Why not just use an SMG? Well, because you have both a suppressed, subsonic SMG and a rifle in one gun. How do you change between the two? You switch mags. You don't even have to take the can off. Just switch mags. Heck, you could even load a few rounds subsonic and then switch to rifle ammo in one mag. That is pretty cool. And I know this is not a common concern for most of us, but that's actually fairly interesting from a tactical standpoint. It would make for a very interesting firearm during raids. And it's still an AR.

 

Most of us may not be conducting daily raids, but if you looks at firearms, aspects that give them tactical applications also tend to make them fun at the range. Quick, easy, options, familiar, SMG or rifle, you have that in spades with 300.

 

And, honestly, is there a downside to an extremely effective SUPERsonic round from a suppressed very short barrel AR for home defense? Sure, 6.8 and 6.5 will do that as well, but it still beats the crap out of .223 (my favorite) out of a very short barrel even if it makes a crack after exiting the can.

 

As far as decibels are concerned, I've never looked into that. I'm sure the typical numbers stated here in this thread are correct, and I am sure they are officially above the stated level that might accumulate hearing damage. Many of you have shot subsonic suppressed, many of you have not. For the later, let me tell you something. That noise is extremely brief and it is not a "crack" or a "boom." Several people here have either fired or watched me fire my MAX-11 suppressed with subsonic ammo (feel free to chime in). Throw out any decibel levels you want, if you slept over my house and I dumped an entire mag out the window in the next room you would not wake up. So maybe it brings the decibels but the nature of the noise is that it is VERY quiet to the ear. And the 300 is quieter.

 

 

 

So, if you like suppressed or SBR, the advantages are obvious. If you don't or can't, you still have a step up in caliber and a hunting rifle for medium game out to short medium range in an AR. Maybe 6.8 is better, I'm not sure. Maybe 6.5 has better range, but it also costs more. You can buy bolt action rifles in different calibers that do pretty much the same thing as each other as well.

[Newtonian 453]

I'm still mulling this over. I have until early May now to save on a NICS.

 

The thought of another caliber sends shivers up my spine. I'm going to have to start throwing furniture away.

 

OK, and in the hands of an avg-so-so shooter the problem with 7.62x39 is what? Mind you I'm not hitting anything at 500 yards except the ground. Maybe.