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Dems Reach New Agreement on NJ Gas Tax Hike

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Start paying for things like adults? Reasonable amounts? Google "paving roads per mile" and you will find that the national average is $162,200 per mile, the state of MA pays $675,000 per mile. they are number two. And the winner(?) is New Jersey at $2,000,000 per mile. Makes me feel proud, we're number one!  We're number one!

Arithmetic and research are not strong points in these forums. Here's the article: http://usat.ly/2a0HNgV

 

Turns out we're about 3x the national average, not 14 as you write. Give the state some slack in that every major road is more highly constrained than is I-80 in rural Nebraska. We have a lot of such roads, e.g. Rtes 22 and 17 whereas most of this country is open space. As is noted here (http://bit.ly/2a0I5US) the cost per mile rapidly goes up as a function of how many lanes you're talking about. You can't compare paving a two-lane country road with Rte. 80.

 

There is of course lots of room for improvement. The article mentions prevailing wages and work rules. Good luck lowering wages of construction workers. Anyone who has ever driven past a pothole repair is familiar with NJ work rules. You have two guys holding STOP/GO signs, a foreman doing nothing, an assistant foreman watching the foreman, three people on break and two who are actually working. Oh and don't forget at least one squad car with at least one Hero on triple overtime to pad his already obscene pension. 

 

I'll repeat over and over until I'm blue in the face: These issues are all related. The gun shit is part of it. It's a package, a NJ Surprise that's shoved up our asses every day. Pain is the only thing that will force us to get off our asses and elect decent people. You can email Christie and Sweeney from underneath a sprinkler until it spouts vodka.

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Arithmetic and research are not strong points in these forums. Here's the article: http://usat.ly/2a0HNgV

 

Turns out we're about 3x the national average, not 14 as you write. Give the state some slack in that every major road is more highly constrained than is I-80 in rural Nebraska. We have a lot of such roads, e.g. Rtes 22 and 17 whereas most of this country is open space. As is noted here (http://bit.ly/2a0I5US) the cost per mile rapidly goes up as a function of how many lanes you're talking about. You can't compare paving a two-lane country road with Rte. 80.

 

There is of course lots of room for improvement. The article mentions prevailing wages and work rules. Good luck lowering wages of construction workers. Anyone who has ever driven past a pothole repair is familiar with NJ work rules. You have two guys holding STOP/GO signs, a foreman doing nothing, an assistant foreman watching the foreman, three people on break and two who are actually working. Oh and don't forget at least one squad car with at least one Hero on triple overtime to pad his already obscene pension. 

 

I'll repeat over and over until I'm blue in the face: These issues are all related. The gun shit is part of it. It's a package, a NJ Surprise that's shoved up our asses every day. Pain is the only thing that will force us to get off our asses and elect decent people. You can email Christie and Sweeney from underneath a sprinkler until it spouts vodka.

I agree with everything you just wrote here. My confusion is how you're ok with a gas tax hike despite everything you just posted.

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I agree that borrowing is not the solution either. But neither is continuing to tax the people and forcing them to pay for the fucking incompetence in Trenton.

Correct. The solution, as with our gun gripes, is to elect quality people to the legislature. We don't. We lack the will. We believe in short cuts like stupid idiotic nonsensical and utterly useless email campaigns. Then we feel good about ourselves and live to gripe another day. End of story. 

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Correct. The solution, as with our gun gripes, is to elect quality people to the legislature. We don't. We lack the will. We believe in short cuts like stupid idiotic nonsensical and utterly useless email campaigns. Then we feel good about ourselves and live to gripe another day. End of story. 

That I agree with as well. Even with gun rights, we lack the will. Instead of getting out and actually doing something, we just sit here and bitch about it and argue about the true intents of the few out there who are actually fighting for our rights.

 

As for the nonsensical and utterly useless email campaigns, I also agree. But what harm is there in signing a petition? Does it make me feel good about myself? Not really. In fact, I've forwarded it to many people with a note attached saying, "I doubt this will do anything, but let's voice our displeasure anyway". It's better than nothing, b/c we both know New Jersians are too lazy or scared to get off their fucking asses and march down to Trenton and demand change. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If NJ gun owners had half the balls the BLM movement does, we'd actually accomplish something.

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I agree that borrowing is not the solution either. But neither is continuing to tax the people and forcing them to pay for the fucking incompetence in Trenton.

In this corrupt state the only alternative to taxation is borrowing, which we have done a LOT of since at least Florio's administration. Talk about it all you like, there is no alternative. You're dreaming, living in a fantasy world that hasn't existed for a very long time (if ever) if you think a politician of either party will look for savings elsewhere. There's a better chance of our governor going on a 30-day fast. 

 

The roads will be built come hell or high water. The current hiatus is a fucking act, a political charade. In the end we will borrow the necessary funds because "we're already over-taxed." You or I could find the funds in about one week and we'd have the greatest roads since the Roman Senate decided the trip to their summer villas was too bumpy. Unfortunately that is not how it works in most states, particularly in the shit hole we live in.

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I agree with everything you just wrote here. My confusion is how you're ok with a gas tax hike despite everything you just posted.

Because I have seen during the last 35 years how the myth of lowering taxes has diverted the discussion of taxation and the role of government. Low taxes shield us from reality because politicians will find a way to spend the money anyway. Instead of paying 1X we pay 1.5 or 2.5x (including interest) for the same good or service. Republicans have played this strategy like a violin. It's the main reason conservatives venerate Reagan, who despite his many great qualities was a fiscal fake, phony, fraud. I want us to pay our bills as they come due. If the burden becomes too onerous it will be reflected in the polls. If not then there's no hope but at least we're not paying interest for our extravagance.

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. IF the gas tax goes toward fixing our transportation infrastructure then we most certainly need it. It has not been raised in decades.

They shouldn't need to change the rate, the revenue goes up automatically. There are a LOT more drivers than there were decades ago, and a LOT more gas is being sold. If there is a shortfall, it means they are doing something wrong, which I think the 'cost per mile paved' post captured

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I love how they mismanage this fund, run it dry then cry that they need more money. The peasants are supposed to just take it and be OK.

 

Also, when did $100k become "rich"?

I love how they jacked up our registration costs a few years ago to bolster the transportation fund. And now they "need" this gas tax hike as well. So do our registration and title fees go back down to where the used to be? Where did that f*#king money go? I know it doesn't sound like a lot but for a small business owner such as myself that has about 10 registrations a year including my personal vehicle's it adds up. I'm just so sick of the mismanagement in this state. Taxation is theft!

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They shouldn't need to change the rate, the revenue goes up automatically. There are a LOT more drivers than there were decades ago, and a LOT more gas is being sold. If there is a shortfall, it means they are doing something wrong, which I think the 'cost per mile paved' post captured

FYI. The number of drivers of personal vehicles is going down particularly among the younger crowd. Combine this with more effecient automobiles, I suspect that a gas tax won't be enough soon and we'll be doing this nonsense again. Who wants to bet that the next suggestion from our benevolent dictators is that we all install a box in our cars and pay per mile driven on the government roads?

 

WTF can't we have private roads since NJ sucks at maintaining the public ones?

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. It's better than nothing, b/c we both know New Jersians are too lazy or scared to get off their fucking asses and march down to Trenton and demand change. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If NJ gun owners had half the balls the BLM movement does, we'd actually accomplish something.

 

 

Half the balls?? --  Shouldn't you have said "If NJ gun owners had half the free time as the BLM movement"

 

Got plenty of balls -- I just feel a responsibility to pay my bills on time and that means I have to go to work

 

Maybe I should file for unemployment, maybe I can collect welfare  -- then I'll have all the time in the world to march on Trenton

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FYI. The number of drivers of personal vehicles is going down particularly among the younger crowd. Combine this with more effecient automobiles, I suspect that a gas tax won't be enough soon and we'll be doing this nonsense again. Who wants to bet that the next suggestion from our benevolent dictators is that we all install a box in our cars and pay per mile driven on the government roads?

 

WTF can't we have private roads since NJ sucks at maintaining the public ones?

Nationwide, the number of licensed drivers has been climbing steadily from 1960 to 2014.   http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2014/   I doubt NJ is bucking that trend, though I couldn't easily find stats for NJ only.   More efficient cars should certainly have an effect, but nationwide fuel tax receipts continue to climb (same source) over the period 1960-2014.   NJ only showed a single year comparison, with an increase in fuel tax receipts of 1.6% from 2013 to 2014.  I think fuel efficient vehicles are still slowing the increase, not reversing it.

 

NJ does indeed suck at maintaining public roads (I remember during the 'hands across NJ' tax protest when the figures for maintaining the turnpike and parkway showed that 87% of revenues went to maintaining the turnpike and parkway commissions, and only 13% went to maintaining the actual roads.   

 

But, I'm in a town that years ago unilaterally declared three streets in my neighborhood to be 'private lanes'.   So they stopped repairing and plowing them.    All challenges have failed.  The six houses on my street are now responsible for plowing the 0.2 mile road ourselves every winter, and every spring we buy about 4000 lbs of bagged asphalt patch at our own expense, to fill in the potholes.    The road still shows as a public road on the map, and we've still got a town street sign (and of course, our property tax rate is still the same as everyone else's in town).

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I'm a small business owner. Fuel is always a consideration when writing proposals, or giving estimates. So when I have to pay more, you have to pay more. When registrations go up, taxes go up, insurance goes up, etc., etc., your bill goes up!  Its small business 101.

 

The funny thing is, I don't take home any more money. I end up bringing home the same amount, but getting screwed when I buy a gallon of milk, or heating oil, or having a pizza delivered. Eventually, when the price of the goods I buy as a private citizen goes up enough to where I can't afford them, I will raise my prices so that I can. That means you will pay more, again.

 

Raising taxes to fill the transportation trust fund accounts, just so that politicians have money in there to steal, is not my idea of a solution.

 

I learned a long time ago that an honest person doesn't  make deals with someone they know can't, or wont, live up to their part of the agreement. What is the sense of negotiating the terms of the gas tax hike, when you know there is nothing holding the other side from changing the deal down the line?

 

The minute the gas tax is raised, they will already be drafting legislation to roll back all of those pipe dreams they sold you to get it!

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http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/the-decline-of-the-drivers-license/425169/

 

Here's a more recent article on the falling number of people getting licenses. 10x showed the trends only until 2014. Which trend will overall take hold? Who knows? I do know that NJ won't stop looking for more ways to pick my pocket.

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Nationwide, the number of licensed drivers has been climbing steadily from 1960 to 2014.   http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2014/   I doubt NJ is bucking that trend, though I couldn't easily find stats for NJ only.   More efficient cars should certainly have an effect, but nationwide fuel tax receipts continue to climb (same source) over the period 1960-2014.   NJ only showed a single year comparison, with an increase in fuel tax receipts of 1.6% from 2013 to 2014.  I think fuel efficient vehicles are still slowing the increase, not reversing it.

 

NJ does indeed suck at maintaining public roads (I remember during the 'hands across NJ' tax protest when the figures for maintaining the turnpike and parkway showed that 87% of revenues went to maintaining the turnpike and parkway commissions, and only 13% went to maintaining the actual roads.   

 

But, I'm in a town that years ago unilaterally declared three streets in my neighborhood to be 'private lanes'.   So they stopped repairing and plowing them.    All challenges have failed.  The six houses on my street are now responsible for plowing the 0.2 mile road ourselves every winter, and every spring we buy about 4000 lbs of bagged asphalt patch at our own expense, to fill in the potholes.    The road still shows as a public road on the map, and we've still got a town street sign (and of course, our property tax rate is still the same as everyone else's in town).

On the plus side you should be able to carry a handgun from your house to a neighbors without any fear of repercussions. Not that I would try it since that road would be considered public because "guns"

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Email campaigns and petitions require one of two things to work. 

 

1) The public servant must be honest, open-minded, and actually read their emails. This is the rarest of the rare as only one such letter or email or a petition signed by one person could work with this mythical political being. 

2) You need so many signatures they crap in their drawers

 

Neither situation holds in this state. Why would anyone waste their time emailing Loretta Weinberg about gun control unless they could get 25% of the voters in her district to sign on as well? Same for almost all the Democrats and a few Republicans in Trenton. 

 

You'd do better lighing a candle and say three Hail Marys. 

 

As for numbers, the various alleged pro-2A organizations and loudmouths claim there are 1 million or 1.2 million gun owners in this state. If they're serious about those numbers they should rally them to vote because, as I have demonstrated numerous times with simple arithmetic, even 1/20th of 1.2 million can swing the legislature to the Republicans. 

 

My suspicion that even a veto-proof majority of NJ-bred Republicans wouldn't help gun owners one bit is the subject of another discussion. 

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I can't find anything to argue in the above statement. Just to add a point. There are probably a million gun owners in the PRNJ, the problem is, the majority are Fudds. Many of whom are Democrats!

 

"Sure you can have guns! Got me a double barrel shotgun that my grandpappy left me! Don't see a need for them black rifles though!"

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I can't find anything to argue in the above statement. Just to add a point. There are probably a million gun owners in the PRNJ, the problem is, the majority are Fudds. Many of whom are Democrats!

 

"Sure you can have guns! Got me a double barrel shotgun that my grandpappy left me! Don't see a need for them black rifles though!"

You don't know how many are FUDDs or their political persusasion and neither does anyone else. I can only surmise from my own experience. Of the 15 or so gun owners I know personally (to some degree) 100% are Republicans. Of the several hundred democrats I know not a single one owns a gun. 

 

Also I have never heard a gun owner disparage any type of firearm. Never. Even guys who only own a shotgun for pheasant hunting, or only own a .22 rifle that their father gave them (I had dinner at one's house just last night). Never heard one of them utter anything that was remotely anti-gun. Meanwhile I can barely attend a confirmation barbecue without some asshole bringing up the fact that we have to "keep guns off the street." 

 

The FUDD argument is a myth, an excuse by our do-nothing allegedly pro-2A organizations to continue to do nothing. Mobilizing gun owners in this state requires work. I've suggested concrete ways to do that. No interest here or from the state Republican party.

 

Standing under sprinklers on someone's front lawn, initiating fantasy lawsuits, or setting up a sham GoFundMe site is easy. And you guys eat it up. None of it remotely works yet I get lambasted for pointing that out. 

 

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As bad as this new gas tax idea might be, there may be something MUCH worse coming down the pike--I believe the Dems in Trenton led by state Senate President Steve Sweeney (D-Gloucester) have proposed a ballot referendum to constitutionally mandate large annual contributions into the pension system.  That is, the voters would be asked to pass an AMENDMENT TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION MANDATING THAT THE STATE WORKER PENSIONS BE FULLY FUNDED.  You know, those pension funds that the politicians have been playing games with for years and years--increasing benefits and decreasing funding.  Anyone care to guess where and from whom all that $$$$ is going to get squeezed out of, once it's become part of the state constitution?  You know, that state constitution that has mandated that gusher of extra education funding for decades now, that has been so tremendously successful at bringing all the inner city schools up to equal performance with their suburban counter parts? 

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As bad as this new gas tax idea might be, there may be something MUCH worse coming down the pike--I believe the Dems in Trenton led by state Senate President Steve Sweeney (D-Gloucester) have proposed a ballot referendum to constitutionally mandate large annual contributions into the pension system.  That is, the voters would be asked to pass an AMENDMENT TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION MANDATING THAT THE STATE WORKER PENSIONS BE FULLY FUNDED.  You know, those pension funds that the politicians have been playing games with for years and years--increasing benefits and decreasing funding.  Anyone care to guess where and from whom all that $$$$ is going to get squeezed out of, once it's become part of the state constitution?  You know, that state constitution that has mandated that gusher of extra education funding for decades now, that has been so tremendously successful at bringing all the inner city schools up to equal performance with their suburban counter parts? 

They should immediately cut all state pensions by 25% over 4 years, eliminate ALL double-dippers, eliminate padding (e.g. cops), raise the retirement age for everybody by one year every other year, until it's 64 for everyone, and institute some large deductible for all health plans. Don't tell me you can't live on SS plus a 25% reduced pension. We're talking $50-100k. Then and only then should they make full funding mandatory.

 

I don't get why everybody here believes in deficit spending but not paying their way. 

 

If full mandatory funding were mandatory in 1990 and taxes went up appropriately voters would rebel and the asshole legislators and executives who granted those lucrative pensions would be out on their asses and nobody would try that scam again for 10-15 years. Don't you see how deficit spending hides free spending?

 

BTW my wife is a teacher and between her pension and SS will take home almost as much money as she does today by not working. Even though I stand to benefit I believe it's a f-ing disgrace. 

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As bad as this new gas tax idea might be, there may be something MUCH worse coming down the pike--I believe the Dems in Trenton led by state Senate President Steve Sweeney (D-Gloucester) have proposed a ballot referendum to constitutionally mandate large annual contributions into the pension system. That is, the voters would be asked to pass an AMENDMENT TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION MANDATING THAT THE STATE WORKER PENSIONS BE FULLY FUNDED. You know, those pension funds that the politicians have been playing games with for years and years--increasing benefits and decreasing funding. Anyone care to guess where and from whom all that $$$$ is going to get squeezed out of, once it's become part of the state constitution? You know, that state constitution that has mandated that gusher of extra education funding for decades now, that has been so tremendously successful at bringing all the inner city schools up to equal performance with their suburban counter parts?

We should tell them we'll support it when they repeal Justifiable need.

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This state is a numbers game.  A numbers game of those who work hard, pay their own bills and take care of their own vs the free shit army.  Unfortunately NJ is a socialist state and the free shit army will keep voting them in.  I'm out in September so I give fuck all about politics in N.J. or this gas tax hike but I pity you who believe you can still win the numbers game.  This is not defeatism, it's just being smart enough to know that NJ is a failed state.

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This has to pass. How else are we going to pay for the unemployment benefits for all the striking union workers?

 

The only "gas" about this tax is that it is fueling Sweeney's political ambitions.

 

 

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The only thing that substantially improves Trenton or Washington is, sadly, a mushroom cloud. I'm sad to say it, but this county's best days are behind it. I am glad I was able to catch the tail end, and I am glad to be old enough that I will not be around to see where it all ends.

 

I will leave it there until this thread lands in the 1A Lounge.

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The only thing that substantially improves Trenton or Washington is, sadly, a mushroom cloud. I'm sad to say it, but this county's best days are behind it. I am glad I was able to catch the tail end, and I am glad to be old enough that I will not be around to see where it all ends.

 

I will leave it there until this thread lands in the 1A Lounge.

My sentiments exactly. The descent has been quick. Kinda like an amusement part ride.

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