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Best stock AR under $1,000

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I've always wondered what 'exceeds the TDP' really means. I suspect it's nothing but a marketing term.

lol, not sure as this is only what ive read somewhere, but basically its a marketing ploy of if TDP says x& y dimension must be checked. and you check X&Y&Z then you can claim you exceed. even though Z might be a nothing necessary dimension. so it is basically the same as the TDP. again Im not positive on it but that was my understanding after some reading on it.

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I've always wondered what 'exceeds the TDP' really means. I suspect it's nothing but a marketing term.

Exceeds the tdp would be simple. A high power X-ray of every bolt instead of HPT would be better but $$$. Hodge defense used a supposedly superior aluminum alloy in their rifles. If a rifle used a geissele ssa one could argue that's exceeds the tdp. FN has the double thick chrome lining for the m249 barrels that they sell to noveske, spikes, palmetto, centurion,etc. none of those are milspec but they are all an improvement.

 

Not to mention fit and finish. If you take a measurement +/- .002" and make it .001" that would fall within the tdp but still be better( assuming there was an advantage to making the tolerance tighter

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IIRC the US Army actually owns the TDP for the M4 at this time.

The Army does not own the TDP. They have the right to allow other companies to build rifles using the TDP, but they do not own it. Needs of the Army, enabling multiple sources for mission critical equipment.

In the case that another company builds rifles for the .gov (like FN), Colt gets paid a royalty for each rifle.

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Exceeds the tdp would be simple. A high power X-ray of every bolt instead of HPT would be better but $$$. Hodge defense used a supposedly superior aluminum alloy in their rifles. If a rifle used a geissele ssa one could argue that's exceeds the tdp. FN has the double thick chrome lining for the m249 barrels that they sell to noveske, spikes, palmetto, centurion,etc. none of those are milspec but they are all an improvement.

 

Not to mention fit and finish. If you take a measurement +/- .002" and make it .001" that would fall within the tdp but still be better( assuming there was an advantage to making the tolerance tighter

I get what you are saying, but my point is to be able to prove it, and demonstrate that the 'improvement' is actually an improvement.

Otherwise, it's just a bunch of marketing bullshit.

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Thanks for all the input! Obviously the s&w was an option due to its availability and very low price. But just being new to the AR platform was not sure if it would turn out to be a disappointment. Hey, if I can buy one for around $500 and then put another $500 worth of personal mods into it to make it "mine", I'd be happy.

$500 for the M&P, $200 for ammo, $300 for training class.

 

The M&P is a good rifle and you're better off getting something like that and shooting the crap out of it. Then down the road once you know what you like and don't like you can sell it to finance the start of your custom build.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The Army does not own the TDP. They have the right to allow other companies to build rifles using the TDP, but they do not own it. Needs of the Army, enabling multiple sources for mission critical equipment.

In the case that another company builds rifles for the .gov (like FN), Colt gets paid a royalty for each rifle.

It sure sounds like they do, it just seems it doesn't absolve other companies from still having to pay a royalty so its probably semantics at this point. But in any case companies like KAC, FN and others are indeed in possession of the TDP. Its just that Colt is the only one in that price point. I do not know of the quality or attributes of the Civy FN but that's because Im a KAC guy :)

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I want to hear more about these MM rifles.

 

What are the specs?

Are they legitimately reliable?

What configurations do they have available?

I have questions upon questions...

 

It's hard to be an unknown entity breaking into the AR world with so many reliable and quality rifles out there that have a baseline for reliability, accuracy, and quality.

 

If I have $800 to pickup a carbine do I buy a Colt 6920 with their years of known performance? Even the few issues that do crop up from time to time are known. Or do I spend my money on an unknown rifle, that is new on the scene, that I never heard of before?

 

I'm all about NJ companies building guns - This makes my heart soar like an eagle. But, if I am on a fixed budget and can only buy one gun to suit my needs its hard to choose the unknown over the known.

 

MM needs to get out there and get ther gear into the hands of some shooters. Become that known quantity.

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This is the second time I've seen MM mentioned on here and if you go to their website http://modernmateriel.com/ it's just the generic firearm store front that many gun stores use. I'm not sure if they have a different website showcasing their in house build rifles.

 

I would also be interested in learning more about this company, as we all would love to support a home based company. But, like HE said, without knowledge of specs and reliability how do we know if we're buying a Hi-Point or a Sig.

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I want to hear more about these MM rifles.

 

What's the specs?

Are they legitimately reliable?

What configurations do they have available?

I have questions upon questions...

 

It's hard to be an unknown entity breaking into the AR world with so many reliable and quality rifles out there that have a baseline for reliability, accuracy, and quality.

 

If I have $800 to pickup a carbine do I buy a Colt 6920 with their years of known performance? Even the few issues that do crop up from time to time are known. Or do I spend my money on an unknown rifle, that is new on the scene, that I never heard of before?

 

I'm all about NJ companies building guns - This makes my heart soar like an eagle. But, if I am on a fixed budget and can only buy one gun to suit my needs its hard to choose the unknown over the known.

 

MM needs to get out there and get ther gear into the hands of some shooters. Become that known quantity.

You're absolutely right. They have been getting demo rifles out to local social shoots and to reviewers online. They've received good word from everyone I have seen and/or know shoot them.

 

I haven't tried one for myself yet but I've been in talks with them about doing a demo. I've held the rifles in my hands and saw what looked like high quality. They cerakote them in NJ as well. The stock was fixed and brake pinned + welded (they make their own brake much like a Surefire or Rebel Arms type).

 

From what I understand they will be filling local retailers soon, so we should see more of them out and about. I know that they have the best of intentions with building a bigger and stronger 2a community in NJ and I'm sure there are many other vendors here that would attest to that. Obviously that has no bearing on the rifles themselves though.

 

Bottom line, I think it's pretty difficult these days, to build an AR that isn't reliable. At $800 you're buying an entry level platform upon which to build from.

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Bottom line, I think it's pretty difficult these days, to build an AR that isn't reliable. At $800 you're buying an entry level platform upon which to build from.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with this. I have seen too many rifles fail to what tracks back to low quality parts manufacturing and low quality assembly. You have to cut some corners to keep prices low, this is even more true when dealing with a company that has a relatively small production where it costs more to produce each rifle. Those cut corners are where you find your breakage. The Devil in fact, is in the details.

 

Again, I'm all about NJ built ARs. Even more excited about a NJ company standing up for NJ 2A rights. But for the time being, MM is an unknown with pricing equal to quality known manufacturer of Lang standing quality. That's hard to beat.

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There is a new manufacturer in NJ called Modern Materiel that is building NJ legal rifles right out of the box. I think they come in around $800. Support a Jersey company![/quote

 

I'd like to have the guys at Battlefield Las Vegas (Henderson Defense) put a couple of these MM carbines on the line for a few months.

That will shake them down, and find out what breaks on these rifles.

 

As much as I like the idea of a NJ built AR, I suspect these guys are nothing more than assemblers of mid grade parts. At the price point of their carbines, a 6920 is a no brainer.

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Not conclusive, but it is a very good indicator of who's parts fail at high round counts.

 

I know they don't have the time to set up a more scientific set of tests, but it would be amazing it they could. I for one, would love to set up better logging and tracking of each individual weapon, with round counts, failure logs, and do failure analysts afterwards.

 

The data is there, it's just a matter of how to extract it.

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I do think they mention having a log book for every weapon. I don't know if anyone has time to read it though. I do think I heard him say that by now it's not worth having a customer come to them with a broken weapon, so as a preventative measure they have a schedule on changing out parts that are likely to go.

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But it's still a static range. It's great for the purpose of exposing round count failures but that wouldn't cover any failures due to foreign contaminates, bumping into things, over gassing issues, etc.

I'm a little disjointed because I'm typing this on my phone. Forgive me, but I think my meaning will come across....

 

 

I'm not arguing your point, I'm just saying that high round count static ranges have the potential to provide amazing data on commercial products.

 

You're right, it doesn't take the 'soldier proof' failures into context, but what testing truly does? Soldiers and sailors will find amazing ways to screw up something (believe me, I know. I spent my Naval career on submarines, and the crap I have seen sailors do....).

 

What it DOES do, is allow testing of componets to failure in an unbiased fashion. At least it offers the data, if one chooses to mine it from their records.

 

I haven't seen too many manufactures (in the AR world, for instance, Colt, FN, probably KAC, maybe a couple of other smaller players) that have the resources, time, or the need to test their componets to failure.

 

I'm going to pick on PSA for a moment, simply because their name rolled off my tongue.

Do you think PSA cares that much about how many rounds it takes for their bolts to fail?

Probably not. Nor do they have the resources to do so.

They don't manufacture them, they buy them from someone who does, made to PSA's 'spec' (whatever that is).

The higher grade product, like the premium line, may get mil-spec materials and similar testing than a GI grade bolt from FN or Colt.

The lower grade stuff, like the PTAC, who knows.

 

Colt, and other mil-spec manufactures, do care how many rounds it typically takes for a bolt to shear lugs, or fail otherwise. They have the materials and resources to test to failure. And a stake in the game.

 

I think that the type of data that can be provided by a static range is very useful, if compiled correctly.

I would love to have some of their discarded barrels, for example, to section them, and analize rifling, throat erosion, gas port wear, ect.

Would need to know round counts on each (and that's the difficult part, getting exact round counts), but the data would be very, very telling....

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That's puttin' lip stick on a pig, and wasting money.  Don't want or have time or money to build it, get something close to your desires and just shoot it  Two vendors have compliant ones for sale on this board. One has a S&W, another a Windom.

 

I was also considering the Ruger, but ending up going with the Windham Weaponry SRC (NJ compliant - retails for under $1000)

 

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/pdf/NewTechSeets/R16M4FTPT-MA-8-12-16%20MSRP.pdf

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