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Scorpio64

Mil Dot, BDC, Rad, Duplex, WTF....

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I'm having reticle overload.  I've been shopping for a new scope to upgrade the so-so one I have on my 18" SPR.  Currently there is a decent midrange 3-9x40 on it and I've reached the limits of the scope's performance.  I'm looking at 3-12 and 4-16 scopes.  I kind of have an idea of what I want but before I buy the scope I think I'd like to hear from some members about their thoughts on scopes in the magnification range I specified.

 

Mostly, I'm interested in hearing about what features are the most useful and what features will be useless without some sort of specialized training. i.e FFP vs SFP.  is mil-dot better than bdc etc.  For now, I do not need, nor can I afford a $2,000.00 Swarovski so lets keep the suggestions under $500.00.  I'm currently looking at Vortex, Leupold, Primary Arms, Nikon and a few others.

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What ranges are you regularly planning to shoot it at?

 

Good info here as a "primer":

 

http://www.primalrights.com/articles/rifle-sighting-systems-part-3-sfp-vs-ffp

 

After reading this at least you'll know what questions to ask.

 

Snipers Hide forum is an excellent resource for this topic as well.

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That is a good guide HE linked.

 

The world of optics has gotten more complicated lately with lots of options on the market. Gone are the days when the 3-9 Leupold was a valid answer to most questions.  You can go mad researching optics options and splitting hairs and some people have made optics into their own fetish.

 

My recommendation is to first decide what is the purpose of the optic you are buying, then decide on a price, then narrow your search to that bracket or your risk loosing your mind in all the options.

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Get a "Mil-Dot Master" and make sure your scope reticle and turrets use the same unit of measure ie: mil/mil or moa/moa.  Reading about it is more complicated that actually doing it.  Personally I went with a Vortex EBR-1 MRAD scope.  Most likely more than I'll use but it's a nice reticle.  If you're not ranging to targets, don't get caught up in FFP vs. SFP.  Both work well.  If you're shooting on a square range at known distance the SFP is actually easier to use and the reticle won't obscure your target at higher mag.  

 

http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-hs-t-4-16x44-riflescope-with-vmr-1-mrad-reticle/reticle

 

You can find it for just over your budget with little to no work OR you can scour the used market.  FB "Rifle Scope Trader" is a good place to start if you're on there.

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What ranges are you regularly planning to shoot it at?

 

 

 

Typically 200-300 yards, and maybe (a low probability maybe) out to 600 yds once or twice a year.

 

I think the thing I'm getting hung up on most is ranging and dialing in the scope vs holdover and Kentucky windage estimating.

 

I will be shooting 223/5.56 ammo in the 62gr to 77gr range.

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I personally like the Nikon BDC, and use one in my Monarch 2.5-10. Their online calculator makes hold overs at different distances very easy.. Personally for range use, I think most of these reticles are over kill because you can adjust them to zero for what ever distance you target is. I believe the mil-dot offers the best when it comes to gauging distances using objects in the field.

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Typically 200-300 yards, and maybe (a low probability maybe) out to 600 yds once or twice a year.

 

I think the thing I'm getting hung up on most is ranging and dialing in the scope vs holdover and Kentucky windage estimating.

 

I will be shooting 223/5.56 ammo in the 62gr to 77gr range.

 I like the Nikon M-223 line of scopes for AR's. Currently I am running a M-223 2-8x, Nikoplex reticle on my 20" barrel AR. Great glass, and great positive tactical click turrets (nicest I ever felt on any scope). You can have custom turrets made for your specific round so the markings corresponds to the yardage. I turn the turret to 200yds, right on, 300yds etc, it is dead nuts accurate. And of course they offer the online ballistics calculator, so you can print out a dope card for your scope and round if you don't want the custom turrets.

 

Here it is in 4-16x Nikoplex:

 

http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/nikon-products/riflescopes/m-223-4-16x42-nikoplex.html

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I personally like the Nikon BDC, and use one in my Monarch 2.5-10. Their online calculator makes hold overs at different distances very easy.. Personally for range use, I think most of these reticles are over kill because you can adjust them to zero for what ever distance you target is. I believe the mil-dot offers the best when it comes to gauging distances using objects in the field.

 

I've heard noting but great things about Nikon optics.  I just could not get past the bulbous BDC reticle.  It looked kinda funky to me.  However, I did just learn that Nikon offers a mil/mil in the Monarch 3 series.  Aside from the 2mm difference in the objective and 1" tube (Nikon) vs 30mm tube (Vortex) there is little difference between the Nikon Monarch and the Vortex Viper HS-T  I believe the Nikon is a bit more compact too.

 

Here's the thing though.  Nikon only offers a limited lifetime warranty while the Vortex comes with an unconditional (moron proof) warranty.  The difference in price is pretty much $100.00 so I have to ask myself; Is the better warranty worth a Benjamin?  One more thing.  Upping to a 30mm tube means I have to drop some coin on a new mount too.  Decisions decisions...

 

 

 

 

 

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If you decide to get a vortex go to BHPhotovideo.com. They have great prices on Vortex. I got a Diamondback HP 3-12 for $269 and they are selling the 4-16 for $299. Just click on the "email me a better price" link. Oh, and I also got free shipping, $25 gift card, and a pair of smith range glasses with 2 lenses. All for $269. Will be using the $25 gift card towards my next Vortex for my .308

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If you decide to get a vortex go to BHPhotovideo.com. They have great prices on Vortex. I got a Diamondback HP 3-12 for $269 and they are selling the 4-16 for $299. Just click on the "email me a better price" link. Oh, and I also got free shipping, $25 gift card, and a pair of smith range glasses with 2 lenses. All for $269. Will be using the $25 gift card towards my next Vortex for my .308

 

It's funny, B&H, PA, Midway, SWFA, OP all have the same price within a few cents, $569ish for the Viper HS-t 4-16x44.  Most have free shipping too.  Some even offer flip caps and/or sun shades to sweeten the deal.  I know I could easily pay more than double than $570 for a good scope but man, my wife is going to kill me.  My original budget was $400.00 and I planned on reusing the Burris rings I have on the SPR now.

 

I'm starting to second guess this purchase and revisiting the PA 4-14x40 FFP w/ACSS reticle.  But blech... It's made in the PRoC.  At first I was looking for an American made scope.  After I quickly realized I could not afford a Leupy with the features I want, and Redfield didn't make what I wanted, then I started thinking about Jap and Filipino made scopes.

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i prefer moa myself. to me the adjustments are quite natural if your distances are measured in yards as they are at my ranges (1/4 click = 1/4" at 100 yards). i can't speak to the price range you're looking at, but remember 2 things: 1. general rule in the hardcore optics forums (no offense to those here) is you should spend roughly 1:1 on the scope to what you paid for the rifle, and 2. don't knock something like a $2k swarovski (or my preferred brand, nightforce). you can pick them up used for much less than retail and they last a lifetime. glass and build quality will make you a scope snob for sure and you won't go back. before you know it you'll be dropping additional $100 on custom aadland caps and $400 bulletproof rtz mounts.  trust me

 

as for reticle choice, i recommend doing exactly what i did. download strelok (they have a free version) and input your variables (mount height, zero distance, shooting distance, barrel twist, elevation specific cartridge you'll use,etc). then you can view the specific reticles you're looking at and the accompanying drops. spend a couple of weeks doing this and you'll definitely see some preferences develop. makes narrowing the scope brand and model much easier. after all your configs and buying, you can print specific dope cards for each cartridge you'll use

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