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Zeke

5 years?!!!!!! Are fricken kidding!!!!!

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http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2016/10/nj_man_sentenced_to_5_years_for_smuggling_guns_fro.html#incart_river_mobile_index

 

 

200 guns, yes 200 guns sold illegally in this state. Sold to drug dealers illegally.

And gets 5 years.

 

And we worry about stopping to use the restroom.

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5 years is bullshit he probably narced on his buddys for a lessor sentence. However I don't worry about stopping to go to the bathroom, get food, or get fuel when transporting my handguns. Your on your own there zeke.

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This guy will probably do a year or two, get higher education in gang dealings, make some connections, get promoted in the ranks and will be out on the street dealing again.

 

No parole in the Federal system. You get 5 years you do 5 years. He must have flipped a lot of people to get his sentence down to 5 years.

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This guy will probably do a year or two, get higher education in gang dealings, make some connections, get promoted in the ranks and will be out on the street voting for Democrats again

 

FTFY - And I also don't worry about taking a leak or getting a cup of coffee on the way home from the range

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No early release for Fed time. But sheesh, 5 years for 200 guns. Only in the PRNJ you could get 5 years for a 30 round magazine. This guy will be out in his early 40's and back on the streets. I sure hope it was worth it for the guys he rolled over on. 

 

S. 

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Any AUSA would be willing to take this to trial. Even if he was found guilty on some of the charges it would have gotten him 10-20 years. At a proffer his attorney obviously cut a deal. You can get a lot of time off your sentence but no one bargains down to zero.

 

I have personal knowledge of a guy caught smuggling a few kilos of coke. It would be a slam dunk prosecution for the AUSA. He decided to flip and helped make about a dozen more prosecution's with about 20 arrests. He was looking at 10-15 years and he got 3.

 

Federal sentencing guidelines dictate how much time someone gets. What their degree of involvement was and how much did they cooperate after they were arrested. Say nothing and go to trial get found guilty. Cooperate and plea a lot less time. This is figured out by US Probation and Parole. I never saw a judge that gave someone LESS time USP&P suggested.

 

This guy pled out. He has no appeal rights. His sentence was agreed upon before he went back to court. He must have told the AUSA and ATF a bit.

 

He may go into a halfway house his last few months but he will do 5 years

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This is proof positive that its not about taking criminals off the street, its about assaulting the 2nd.

If the information this guy results in taking 10 other criminals off the streets do you think it's worth giving the guy only 5 years?

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I believe in punishment that fits the crime. Drug dealers and gun dealers cost lives and cause family destructions. Would the 10 other criminals eventually be caught anyway? How many people may have died at as a result of those illegal guns? How can you reconcile 7 years for the Brian Aiken case and similar ones and 4 years here? Is it fair the actual non-criminal doesn't have any criminal friends to deal away? I fully understand the system. However, dealing away to the point its a relative slap on the wrist compared to the crime vs all the cases that lacked any consideration because political bias is the motivation is unacceptable. If he got 10 years instead of 20 for trading in criminal cohorts, perhaps that would not offend my sensibilities as much. But to deal down to levels like this indeed bother me. Much the same that the guy that beat his child to permanent brain damage only getting 4 years does. Yet someone with an out of state mag in transition gets 7?

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if they can catch him, they can catch his buddies. just means they have to work harder. always easier to take the easy way out, you know.

They won't work harder. No time, no money in budget, not enough manpower. Go to Paterson and ask any Sgt how many men they have per square mile. Never enough.

 

Ask the FBI to find a high profile marijuana grower that had him once, absconded, but now no time to find him.

 

Ask a donut belly city cop to chase down a fleeing suspect, he'll say screw that. Running is for the young guys, I'll take my car.

 

How do I know? Worked with them.

They wouldn't have to work harder they'd leave them the fook in. Shane is right. It pisses me off too. There are so many lives crap like this affects. I ripped a desk Sgt a new one once when a crying woman came in because she wanted to get someone down to her home to remove the drug dealers from her stoop so she can get inside without being beaten because they know she reports them. The Sgt told her he cannot spare the men and told her to move. I wigged out! Sgt wasn't happy with me but she felt better by time I was done.

 

So you see what and whom shit like this affects? Innocent people that are stuck in shit holes that just want to have peace.

What would you suggest?

 

How about INS? They have more people coming in than places to hold them.

The agents and leo in the fields are frustrated and have been for decades!

 

The effing revolving door needs to jam, these deals need to be heftier. Many many years ago crap like this was not as bad as this. Cops didn't put up with shit. Big city Cops today either don't care or are scared to do their jobs right. The Paterson cops I grew up with, told you to watch your head getting into the car after they smacked you into it.

Told you to wait for elevator door to open and watch your step after they slapped you into the door before it opens.

 

Bad guys use to be scared of the cops. Look the contempt there is for them today. They are stuck in between these douche judges and used car salesman attorneys.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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if they can catch him, they can catch his buddies. just means they have to work harder. always easier to take the easy way out, you know.

You don't show much knowledge of how criminal investigation works. You say work harder. I used to average about 60 hours of overtime a month. There were times I worked over 100 hrs and I remember one month when I broke 200 hrs of overtime. No I wasn't getting time and a half for all those hours. I was paid straight time for the first 40 hours and anything over that was a gift. I did that for 27 years. How much harder should I have worked?

 

Many of those hours were on cases where we had gotten information from criminals that we had arrested. Ever try to make a case on crime that was committed over a year before? I have. It isn't easy.

 

You talk about frustration. How would you feel if you were the ATF agents who worked this case? These were agents who were out there to catch a genuine criminal. Not some guy in NJ who gave his brother in PA a shotgun without going through a FFL. Apparently 5 years is what the Federal Sentencing Guidelines said he should get. Thats sucks you say? Before they were adopted back in the 80s he probably would have got less. He had to give up a lot to get his sentence down to 5 years.

 

Thats not even talking about cases that go to trial, the prosecution has everything done correctly,and the judge threatens to replace the defense counsel as the attorney was bordering on not properly representing his client. But you get the 12 bumpkins on a jury that find this criminal not guilty. I'm not talking jury nullification. I'm talking about a case that appeared a slam dunk lost because there were morons on the jury.

 

Yeah this guy got off with 5 years. But if he gave up 10 other cretins I'd rather spend 1000 hrs to catch all of them than spend that time to catch 2.

 

Many forget that all those Constitutional protections they keep screaming about apply to criminals too.

 

I can't speak for all cops. I do know that contrary to what a lot of people think most cops, on all levels, are out there to catch genuine criminals. They're not out there to catch you with a 16 round magazine or that box of hollowpoints you didn't take out of your trunk.

 

Most of those cases with I forgot my gun was in the glovebox or I have a carry permit in PA and got caught with my gun in NJ are the result of people not taking the time to make themselves aware of the law. Owning and carrying guns comes with responsibilities. I'm not defending NJ's stupid gun laws but you need to follow them to stay out of jail. I'll repeat here what I have in the past. Brian Aitken is no 2A poster boy. If he didn't say something to worry his Mother so much she called the police he wouldn't have had his legal problems. I have duscussed this at length in other threads.

 

Just about everyone said what a good job those Linden cops did catching that bomber a few weeks ago. I guarantee you there's a few people out there calling them jerks because the same cop gave them a ticket for a red light since.

 

The size of police departments is dictated by their crime rates. A smaller town with a high crime rate will have more cops than a larger town with a lower crime rate. As a result, most cops are usually just as busy no matter where they work. The exception is there are never enough cops in those towns with high crime rates.

 

Yes, there are lazy cops. Same as there are lazy people in all other types of jobs. Thats the exception not the rule.

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We will go in circles here. But any Prosecutor worth his/her salt will tell you, they will take what they can get. There is no such thing as "genuine criminal  vs  other criminal". For them, simple question is "did you violate the law" and what can you (or your lawyer) bargain away.  They may feel bad for you if you are first time offender or got jacked up for silly reasons. Some times they may cut you a deal even if you dont have anything to offer in return.  But make no mistake, most of them will not think twice about charging you with 16 round magazine or box of hollow points you forgot to take out of your trunk, if they got enough facts and evidence. 

 

And comment about "Aitken should not have said something to his Mom" is a good example. That proves once legal system is involved, they seldom ask "Is this guy a genuine criminal".   They are not out there to "get" average Joe on purpose, but they wont pass on if opportunity presents itself. Simple as that. 

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So we can all agree that lawyers and judges are the issue! Griz, by your own statements I get the sense you agree the sentence is not really where it should be, and that LE can certainly be driven to apathy by courts that seem bent on providing a revolving door to career criminals. But that same court seems to take a position of being appalled and "needs to make an example" of those citizens caught up in inflexions of interpretation of the law. No cases come to mind where these people had ANY priors. I do NOT forget the constitutional protections provided to all. I did get a B+ in Constitutional law and rules of evidence :). But there is an issue when mr. career criminal is getting greater consideration than joe citizen who is arguably entrapped by NJ laws.

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jandj, what you describe is what has punched a big hole in the trust between citizen and LE in my view. In my lifetime there is a big difference between LE interaction when I was young, and they had the ability to impart curb side justice or make judgment decisions to now where very little is up to them. So the unintended consequence is that Mr. Career criminal has bargaining chips and Mr. citizen caught up in the system doesn't. This is wrong. But I digress, my original point is that I understand and accept getting more police work done by turning cons, however, I do not accept that the final sentencing of the career criminal especially given his charges, is out of alignment with sentences issued to people clearly ensnared in the system with no criminal history.

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jandj, what you describe is what has punched a big hole in the trust between citizen and LE in my view. In my lifetime there is a big difference between LE interaction when I was young, and they had the ability to impart curb side justice or make judgment decisions to now where very little is up to them. So the unintended consequence is that Mr. Career criminal has bargaining chips and Mr. citizen caught up in the system doesn't. This is wrong. But I digress, my original point is that I understand and accept getting more police work done by turning cons, however, I do not accept that the final sentencing of the career criminal especially given his charges, is out of alignment with sentences issued to people clearly ensnared in the system with no criminal history.

I am not sure if any of this should be directed at LE. We, as society are responsible for this mess. Unfortunately, the days of discretion are largely gone. We have become a litigious society. We have become society of fear & terror for no apparent reason. Largely it has become a business. Right or wrong, body-cams are in and common sense is out.  

 

Legal system, being part of society, invariably followed suit. Kids not happy with parents, Cops show up.  Husband and Wife argues, Cops show up. Neighbor called on you for cleaning guns outside, Cops show up. A member at the eating club is a PC, Cops show up.  And when they show up, they are trained follow the law, arrest & record on body-cam. If they dont, they will end up on TV.  Prosecutors got their careers lined up and measured by  number of convictions under the belt, common sense be damned. 

 

There is plenty of blame to go around, but the current legal system is a net that will catch anything and everything it gets, people's lives be damned.  Either you have to bargain away with a bigger fish or have enough money and power to fight it.   And thats how your average law abiding firearm owner who pissed his mother off got 10 years. And the dude who sold guns to drug dealers got 5 years.  Simple.

 

On a side note, I never understood why everyone assume there needs to be "trust" between Citizens and LE. LE is not a personal psychologist, a butler, a rabbi or a mom. Professional & decent interaction is the only one that must be afforded and expected in return. Anything more is just setting up for disappointment.   

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Trust is of paramount importance! We do not give power to a psych, butler, or Rabbi over us like we do Law Enforcement. I don't believe I have directed anything at LE, at least not the rank and file. Top brass in some agencies that seem to be much more politician than Cop may be another matter entirely.

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Trust is of paramount importance! We do not give power to a psych, butler, or Rabbi over us like we do Law Enforcement. I don't believe I have directed anything at LE, at least not the rank and file. Top brass in some agencies that seem to be much more politician than Cop may be another matter entirely.

I didnt mean to imply anything about you. 

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We will go in circles here. But any Prosecutor worth his/her salt will tell you, they will take what they can get. There is no such thing as "genuine criminal  vs  other criminal". For them, simple question is "did you violate the law" and what can you (or your lawyer) bargain away.  They may feel bad for you if you are first time offender or got jacked up for silly reasons. Some times they may cut you a deal even if you dont have anything to offer in return.  But make no mistake, most of them will not think twice about charging you with 16 round magazine or box of hollow points you forgot to take out of your trunk, if they got enough facts and evidence. 

 

And comment about "Aitken should not have said something to his Mom" is a good example. That proves once legal system is involved, they seldom ask "Is this guy a genuine criminal".   They are not out there to "get" average Joe on purpose, but they wont pass on if opportunity presents itself. Simple as that.

 

People have demanded police be more accountable. Body cameras, field cards filled out on every vehicle stop, no more letting people slide for minor offenses. You don't know of cops letting people go for that9 box of hollowpoints. There is no publicity for times cops still let someone go. The cops aren't talking about and the people they let go certainly don't talk about it. How often does it happen? Don't know but to say you'd always get arrested is not right either.

 

Cops have to make arrests they normally may not have made as its their ass on the line if they don't. Hard to let someone slide now. After the arrests are made prosecutors have to deal with what's there. Dismiss it? Amother crooked prosecutor who was paid off people say.

 

There were more than one time I arrested someone who got railroaded into being part of a crime. No matter what my feelings were I had to arrest them and introduce them to the CJ system.

 

Don't blame the cops and prosecutors. Blame the politicians who passed those laws.

 

How is that cop finding that box of hollowpoints and 16 rd magazine to start with? Because someone did something stupid. Like Brian Aitken. I'll go over it again in case you forgot,

 

1. Said something that worried his mother so much she called 911.

2. When police were there he was called and asked to return. He knew he had gun, mags, bullets in his car. Instead of saying "Everything's okay. Sorry I said that. On my way to my new crash pad", he returned.

3. He was talking with cops at his mother's house for about an hour.

4. He gave cops permission to search his car knowing what they would find.

5. Some time after he was arrested He was offered a plea deal. He refused to take it and wanted to go to trial.

6. At one point he said he had the gun because his room mate didn't want them in the apartment during a party. IIRC this was what his room mate testified to at the trial. Another time Aitken claimed he was moving. What's the truth?

7. On appeal, gun thrown out because judge didn't explain moving exemption to jury. Magazines thrown out because they weren't tested. Christie commuted the sentence for hollowpoints.

 

All because he whined to his mother.

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If the information this guy results in taking 10 other criminals off the streets do you think it's worth giving the guy only 5 years?

The other way to look at it is how many previous times was he convicted for shit that would have you or me still locked up? The real reason we get 5-10 for one offense and he gets 5 for 200 offenses is they know he'll be back 3 months after he's parolled. They'll never see pussies like us again so we get the max.

 

It's a crooked system based on catch and release and catch again. Judges, attorneys, cops, sheriff's officers, stenographers, secretaries, corrections guys, the shoe shine guy and the Indian who sells the papers in the lobby. Without this constant supply of scum they actually have to work for a living.

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People have demanded police be more accountable. Body cameras, field cards filled out on every vehicle stop, no more letting people slide for minor offenses. You don't know of cops letting people go for that9 box of hollowpoints. There is no publicity for times cops still let someone go. The cops aren't talking about and the people they let go certainly don't talk about it. How often does it happen? Don't know but to say you'd always get arrested is not right either.

 

.....

 

There were more than one time I arrested someone who got railroaded into being part of a crime. No matter what my feelings were I had to arrest them and introduce them to the CJ system.

 

Don't blame the cops and prosecutors. Blame the politicians who passed those laws.

 

.......

Post#22......"Unfortunately, the days of discretion are largely gone. We have become a litigious society. We have become society of fear & terror for no apparent reason. Largely it has become a business. Right or wrong, body-cams are in and common sense is out.  ". 

 

Not sure where you got the impression that I was blaming cops.  Prosecutors - absolutely. They have much more discretion and we have prominent cases where prosecutorial discretion was used heavily. I am reiterating the fact that whole system has changed since the good ol' days.  Goes back to topic of this discussion - why this dude gets 5 years and someone like Aitken gets 7+.  Interestingly, tone of this thread appear to show "we" seem to think Aitken deserves 7+ years and its justified for the real criminal to get 5 years, because it resulted in further convictions.  And thats a shame. 

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The other way to look at it is how many previous times was he convicted for shit that would have you or me still locked up? The real reason we get 5-10 for one offense and he gets 5 for 200 offenses is they know he'll be back 3 months after he's parolled. They'll never see pussies like us again so we get the max.

 

It's a crooked system based on catch and release and catch again. Judges, attorneys, cops, sheriff's officers, stenographers, secretaries, corrections guys, the shoe shine guy and the Indian who sells the papers in the lobby. Without this constant supply of scum they actually have to work for a living.

First of all prior convictions are figured in to the sentencing guidelines. You need to educate yourself on Federal Sentencing Guidelines (Sentencing Reform Act of 1984). The manual is available on line.

 

Your statement that it's a crooked system and everyone in it would have to work for a living is false. Most people in the system work hard. I don't think you've done a study of what cops, prosecutors, etc actually do.

 

I suppose like others you probably want to go back to the old days. Yeah the old days. When cops paid off a councilman to get on the department or get promoted, someone with influence will always get off, judges could be bought, and all that good old day stuff. Let's have those days back when a kid would get his ass kicked just because he was in the wrong neighborhood and no one got arrested.

 

Prosecutors can't just dismiss a case without a reason. Their job is to prosecute. Where are all these cases where "prosecutorial discretion" used?

 

Those of you being critical really haven't paid attention to what I've been writing. I've only been explaining why this guy only got 5 years. I never said I agreed with this guy getting 5 years. I could care if he got 500 years and most cops and prosecutors would agree with me.

 

I was and will continue to be critical of cases like Aitken. He appears to be a non-thinking whiner who never thought what the consequences of his actions. Not a poster boy in my book.

 

Someone made the comment about the cops always showing up and resulting in someone being arrested. That's what they're supposed to do if a crime was committed.

 

I don't know about others but I've never invited the cops to witness whatever personal drama was going on.

 

I said this earlier. If you don't like the laws blame the lawmakers not the cops and prosecutors.

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