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Zeke

5 years?!!!!!! Are fricken kidding!!!!!

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You don't show much knowledge of how criminal investigation works. You say work harder. I used to average about 60 hours of overtime a month. There were times I worked over 100 hrs and I remember one month when I broke 200 hrs of overtime. No I wasn't getting time and a half for all those hours. I was paid straight time for the first 40 hours and anything over that was a gift. I did that for 27 years. How much harder should I have worked?

 

So you worked 13 hours a day for 30 straight days or 15 hour days six days a week as a "gift" and nobody told you to GTF home? You must have either been following John Gotti or been on the job in Mayberry during the 1930s.

 

I've known about a dozen cops and never heard a story like that but ok, I believe you.

 

That wasn't my point.

 

My point was that organizations and groups of people instinctively operate in their own self-interest. They don't need to sign blood oaths or meet in smoke-filled rooms, they just do it. Like bees or termites.

 

Justice is a YUGE business. One of the biggest. And like law and medicine one of the few that can create business for itself out of thin air. Like most social groups there's a lot of self-validation and appreciation, mostly unspoken. Those on the periphery pass laws that enable others to arrest people, which invokes a prosecutorial action, which requires hiring lawyers, making bail. If you were a cop I don't have to explain to you what resources go into prosecuting and defending even a contested traffic violation. 

 

You may have relatives or close friends who are plumbers or surgeons, and they're probably very nice people. But at a very basic level they know they'd be living in carboard boxes if very bad things didn't happen to other very nice people. 

 

There's a reason a 4-day hospital stay costs $100,000. There's a reason why scumbags like the guy in the original post got 5 years for 200+ gun violations. There's a reason why this motherfucker got 18 months for actually shooting somebody and Aitken, whom you seem to have a hardon for, got 7 years. There's a reason the first charge that's pleaded away in NJ is the gun charge -- unless it's the only charge, and then only if you're white and belong to a club or range.

 

"The system" knows it will never see Aitken again so they go for the gusto on the sentence. They know they'll see they guy in my link. In fact his sentence is over in March, 2017, just in time to spend Easter praying with his family that the guy he shot upstate is still alive so he can properly finish the job. 

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So you worked 13 hours a day for 30 straight days or 15 hour days six days a week as a "gift" and nobody told you to GTF home? You must have either been following John Gotti or been on the job in Mayberry during the 1930s.

 

I've known about a dozen cops and never heard a story like that but ok, I believe you.

 

That wasn't my point.

 

My point was that organizations and groups of people instinctively operate in their own self-interest. They don't need to sign blood oaths or meet in smoke-filled rooms, they just do it. Like bees or termites.

 

Justice is a YUGE business. One of the biggest. And like law and medicine one of the few that can create business for itself out of thin air. Like most social groups there's a lot of self-validation and appreciation, mostly unspoken. Those on the periphery pass laws that enable others to arrest people, which invokes a prosecutorial action, which requires hiring lawyers, making bail. If you were a cop I don't have to explain to you what resources go into prosecuting and defending even a contested traffic violation. 

 

You may have relatives or close friends who are plumbers or surgeons, and they're probably very nice people. But at a very basic level they know they'd be living in carboard boxes if very bad things didn't happen to other very nice people. 

 

There's a reason a 4-day hospital stay costs $100,000. There's a reason why scumbags like the guy in the original post got 5 years for 200+ gun violations. There's a reason why this motherfucker got 18 months for actually shooting somebody and Aitken, whom you seem to have a hardon for, got 7 years. There's a reason the first charge that's pleaded away in NJ is the gun charge -- unless it's the only charge, and then only if you're white and belong to a club or range.

 

"The system" knows it will never see Aitken again so they go for the gusto on the sentence. They know they'll see they guy in my link. In fact his sentence is over in March, 2017, just in time to spend Easter praying with his family that the guy he shot upstate is still alive so he can properly finish the job.

 

Newtonian, you may know a dozen cops. How many Federal 1811 criminal investigators do you know? FBI, DEA, Secret Service, HSI, ATF, etc. That's what I did for those 27 years. Google Availability Pay and Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime. Thats explains how it works. If you're on a surveillance and something happens requiring you to stay with it you just don't go home. If you have a container with a few hundred kilos of coke delivered to a trucking yard you have to sit on it. That may take days, weeks, or months. Your case is in trial and a defense witness' testimony is a lie. The agent has until tomorrow to prove that witness is lying or you lose the case. The FBI agents going through all those emails are probably working 10-12 hours a day. Availability pay reimburses them at straight time for the first 2 hours of OT. The rest is a gift.

 

No I did not follow John Gotti or work in Mayberry in the 30s.

 

You talk of the resources used in someone fighting a traffic ticket. I agree the fine and court costs don't come close to reimbursing the state. The problem is the Constitution guarantees you those rights. You have these rights even if you shoot someone. Should we do away with the Constitution, trials, etc.

 

Bad things will always happen to nice people. Firefighters don't do much until your house is burning down. There is no shortage of stories of firefighters going into burning buildings to rescue people. Should we get rid of them too.

 

It takes about 12-15 years (college, med school, residency) to become a doctor. I, for one, like my doctor to be well educated. Unless their family is rich or they get full scholarships doctors have big loans to pay off. Doctors who have big loans to pay off usually don't start making any money until they're 40.

 

They are many people who make money because of other people's trobule or disaster. Do you advocate getting rid of all of them?

 

I don't know all the details (and neither do you) of the guy getting 18 months for shooting someone. There may be many reasons for this. Witnesses move away. There was probable cause for arrest and indictment but not enough to ensure conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm just guessing. The prosecutor had the choice to offer him a deal or let him walk. Not saying I agree with the deal but can understand how it could have resulted in that deal. Knowing someone did something and convincing a jury beyond a reasonable doubt are two different things.

 

I don't see any harm in someone loading all their guns and hollowpoints in their trunk and driving around with them there all the time. The law in NJ says you can't. If you want to stay out of trobule don't break the law. Aitken got caught. He was offered a deal after his arrest. IIRC they offered him a year jail time. Being the good little boy he is he may have done 90 days. If he had taken this there wouldn't have been his book or Wikipedia entry on him. He kept insisting he did nothing wrong and went to trial. His attorney didn't do a good enough job to guarantee the jury was aware of the moving exemption. That was his entire defense. He lost got 7 years. Not the poster boy.

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Newtonian, you may know a dozen cops. How many Federal 1811 criminal investigators do you know? FBI, DEA, Secret Service, HSI, ATF, etc. That's what I did for those 27 years. Google Availability Pay and Administratively Uncontrollable Overtime. Thats explains how it works. If you're on a surveillance and something happens requiring you to stay with it you just don't go home. If you have a container with a few hundred kilos of coke delivered to a trucking yard you have to sit on it. That may take days, weeks, or months. Your case is in trial and a defense witness' testimony is a lie. The agent has until tomorrow to prove that witness is lying or you lose the case. The FBI agents going through all those emails are probably working 10-12 hours a day. Availability pay reimburses them at straight time for the first 2 hours of OT. The rest is a gift.

 

No I did not follow John Gotti or work in Mayberry in the 30s.

 

You talk of the resources used in someone fighting a traffic ticket. I agree the fine and court costs don't come close to reimbursing the state. The problem is the Constitution guarantees you those rights. You have these rights even if you shoot someone. Should we do away with the Constitution, trials, etc.

 

Bad things will always happen to nice people. Firefighters don't do much until your house is burning down. There is no shortage of stories of firefighters going into burning buildings to rescue people. Should we get rid of them too.

 

It takes about 12-15 years (college, med school, residency) to become a doctor. I, for one, like my doctor to be well educated. Unless their family is rich or they get full scholarships doctors have big loans to pay off. Doctors who have big loans to pay off usually don't start making any money until they're 40.

 

They are many people who make money because of other people's trobule or disaster. Do you advocate getting rid of all of them?

 

I don't know all the details (and neither do you) of the guy getting 18 months for shooting someone. There may be many reasons for this. Witnesses move away. There was probable cause for arrest and indictment but not enough to ensure conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm just guessing. The prosecutor had the choice to offer him a deal or let him walk. Not saying I agree with the deal but can understand how it could have resulted in that deal. Knowing someone did something and convincing a jury beyond a reasonable doubt are two different things.

 

I don't see any harm in someone loading all their guns and hollowpoints in their trunk and driving around with them there all the time. The law in NJ says you can't. If you want to stay out of trobule don't break the law. Aitken got caught. He was offered a deal after his arrest. IIRC they offered him a year jail time. Being the good little boy he is he may have done 90 days. If he had taken this there wouldn't have been his book or Wikipedia entry on him. He kept insisting he did nothing wrong and went to trial. His attorney didn't do a good enough job to guarantee the jury was aware of the moving exemption. That was his entire defense. He lost got 7 years. Not the poster boy.

Fair enough. 

 

My point though was that "the system" -- regardless of what it is -- evolves toward maximum revenue and benefit for those inside. It doesn't make doctors or feds corrupt or evil, it's human nature, social psychology, whatever you want to call it. There's no set of circumstances a normal person, an outsider, could conjure up where stopping to pick someone up gets you 5-10 and actually shooting somebody gets you 18 months. It's impossible unless there's a reason behind it. 

 

Experts like you will point to laws, rules, regulations, practice, etc. How do you think those laws, rules, regulations, and practices came about? For whose benefit? If you clicked on the link in my last post ask yourself if "the system" exists for the benefit and safety of Paterson residents (where this predator will go after his release) who go to work and walk their kids to school, or to feed the system itself? 

 

And yes the "bad old days" of graft and corruption were better, much better, than the legal, institutionalized insanity of today. To fix a pothole in Jersey City circa 1950 someone called Mayor Hague's cousin who sent two of his guys out to fix it for $120. The mayor got $30, the cousin got $10, the road guys got their salaries and the job got done in two hours. Today you need two foremen, two guys working, two guys watching them, two individuals holding STOP/GO signs, and a "hero" in his squad car making double overtime because he's retiring in a few months. Given the prevailing practice of borrow and spend (see gas tax hike discussions) we pay $5000 for that same pothole, and interest for the next 30 years. 

 

I'll take Tamany any day, and plain-language laws that send real criminals to jail, not people like Aitken.

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Fair enough. 

 

My point though was that "the system" -- regardless of what it is -- evolves toward maximum revenue and benefit for those inside. It doesn't make doctors or feds corrupt or evil, it's human nature, social psychology, whatever you want to call it. There's no set of circumstances a normal person, an outsider, could conjure up where stopping to pick someone up gets you 5-10 and actually shooting somebody gets you 18 months. It's impossible unless there's a reason behind it. 

 

Experts like you will point to laws, rules, regulations, practice, etc. How do you think those laws, rules, regulations, and practices came about? For whose benefit? If you clicked on the link in my last post ask yourself if "the system" exists for the benefit and safety of Paterson residents (where this predator will go after his release) who go to work and walk their kids to school, or to feed the system itself? 

 

And yes the "bad old days" of graft and corruption were better, much better, than the legal, institutionalized insanity of today. To fix a pothole in Jersey City circa 1950 someone called Mayor Hague's cousin who sent two of his guys out to fix it for $120. The mayor got $30, the cousin got $10, the road guys got their salaries and the job got done in two hours. Today you need two foremen, two guys working, two guys watching them, two individuals holding STOP/GO signs, and a "hero" in his squad car making double overtime because he's retiring in a few months. Given the prevailing practice of borrow and spend (see gas tax hike discussions) we pay $5000 for that same pothole, and interest for the next 30 years. 

 

I'll take Tamany any day, and plain-language laws that send real criminals to jail, not people like Aitken.

All those laws, regulations, and rules were brought about by those Tammany Hall types. Not by cops, not by prisecutors. Sullivan Law in NY is a good example. You apply for a pistol permit and they find out you're registered with the "wrong" party, denied. Want to reduce the the numbers of those voting against you? Plant a gun on them. Instant felon. Can't vote anymore. Relatives of politicians have what amounts to immunity. I don't think many will agree with you to bring back graft and corruption. What goes on now is bad enough.

 

There's a couple things out there you fail to mention when you describe how a pothole gets fixed today. That cop getting overtime is paid by the contractor not the city. I know some, maybe all, insurance companies have this as a requirement for the contractor. You break no law if you fail to stop to stop for the laborer with a stop/slow sign. You break a law if you fail to stop for a cop. You break a law if you insist on speeding through the construction site when the police car is sitting there with the lights on. This is a result of the litigious society we live in. You see it on this forum all the time. Cop doesn't talk nice to you. Sue them!

 

What the cop make is a small part of the total cost. After the union truck driver delivers the asphalt the union paver fills the hole. Then you have to have a union laborer, at what $30 a hour,stand around while all this is being done so he can sweep the street when it's all done. Training for union laborers must be intense. Use a broom, use a shovel, carry a bag of cement.

 

I never said anything about supporting the laws Aitken was charged with. They are the result in Tammany Hall type politics in NJ. Aitken's actions during his "ordeal" was what created his "ordeal". He could have avoided the entire episode if he acted as responsible adult when he talked with his mother.

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All those laws, regulations, and rules were brought about by those Tammany Hall types. Not by cops, not by prisecutors. Sullivan Law in NY is a good example. You apply for a pistol permit and they find out you're registered with the "wrong" party, denied. Want to reduce the the numbers of those voting against you? Plant a gun on them. Instant felon. Can't vote anymore. Relatives of politicians have what amounts to immunity. I don't think many will agree with you to bring back graft and corruption. What goes on now is bad enough.

 

There's a couple things out there you fail to mention when you describe how a pothole gets fixed today. That cop getting overtime is paid by the contractor not the city. I know some, maybe all, insurance companies have this as a requirement for the contractor. You break no law if you fail to stop to stop for the laborer with a stop/slow sign. You break a law if you fail to stop for a cop. You break a law if you insist on speeding through the construction site when the police car is sitting there with the lights on. This is a result of the litigious society we live in. You see it on this forum all the time. Cop doesn't talk nice to you. Sue them!

 

What the cop make is a small part of the total cost. After the union truck driver delivers the asphalt the union paver fills the hole. Then you have to have a union laborer, at what $30 a hour,stand around while all this is being done so he can sweep the street when it's all done. Training for union laborers must be intense. Use a broom, use a shovel, carry a bag of cement.

 

I never said anything about supporting the laws Aitken was charged with. They are the result in Tammany Hall type politics in NJ. Aitken's actions during his "ordeal" was what created his "ordeal". He could have avoided the entire episode if he acted as responsible adult when he talked with his mother.

C'mon Grizzy. The contractor pays the cop and who pays the contractor? 

 

You're right that the crooks created the laws. They did so for the sole purpose of codifying the bullshit they conducted for decades, except now totally legally and on much larger scale. Everybody's "clean" and an even greater percentage of citizens vote for them -- people they never met, never had to bribe personally. Why do you think Hoboken has hundreds -- HUNDREDS -- of traffic and crossing guards every morning and afternoon from August to June? They used to pay Hispanics $2 for a vote -- I know because my parents saw this in the election of 1960. Now they hire them to stand at every goddamned corner of the city to bust our balls. No muss, no fuss.

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C'mon Grizzy. The contractor pays the cop and who pays the contractor? 

 

You're right that the crooks created the laws. They did so for the sole purpose of codifying the bullshit they conducted for decades, except now totally legally and on much larger scale. Everybody's "clean" and an even greater percentage of citizens vote for them -- people they never met, never had to bribe personally. Why do you think Hoboken has hundreds -- HUNDREDS -- of traffic and crossing guards every morning and afternoon from August to June? They used to pay Hispanics $2 for a vote -- I know because my parents saw this in the election of 1960. Now they hire them to stand at every goddamned corner of the city to bust our balls. No muss, no fuss.

I guess you missed the part where I said what the cop makes is a small part vs the 5 or 6 guys making $30 an hour for knowing how to use a broom.

 

This is you and me now Newtonian. If you want to continue this we should go to PM.

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