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Mrs. Peel

A4179 and A4180 - (requiring FIDs to use ranges?)

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Hi, I swear that I recall this topic was posted on here before - but I searched high and low... and pulled up nothing! Administrators... feel free to lock or move it elsewhere as appropriate...

 

Just got an NRA-ILA announcement about additional restrictions being proposed for NJ ranges (like customers must already have and show their FID card)... hearing as early as Monday, Dec 5. They are urging letters and attendance at hearing. Here's the link:  

 

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20161130/new-jersey-urgent-legislation-puts-shooting-ranges-in-crosshairs 

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Got the following in an email today.

 

Legislation Imposes Impossible Conditions on Most Ranges, Many Could Be Forced to Close

Shooting Activities Shut Down On Ranges Unable to Comply

Bills Impact Training, Target Practice, Competition, Hunters, Domestic Violence Victims, Military, Law Enforcement, Every Range & Range User, and More

Please Contact Legislative Committee Members Immediately, And Attend Monday's Hearing 

 

 

PLEASE FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO EVERY GUN OWNER YOU KNOW!
 

On Monday, December 5, at 2:00 p.m., the New Jersey Assembly Law & Public Safety Committee is scheduled to hear A4179 and A4180 - "suicide prevention" bills which have little actual impact on suicide but represent a massive attack on every shooting range in the state and every person who uses them. Please attend this critical hearing at the New Jersey State House Annex, 125 West State Street, Trenton NJ 08608 (room to be announced).

There isn't a single gun owner, shooting range, gun club, instructor, hunter education student, or person trying the shooting sports for the first time who would not be impacted by these bills as presently written. The legislation as written also impacts rangework by active and retired law enforcement, military members, and various agency professionals.

The bills as presently written would require the owner or operator of every range and gun club to verify that every range user has an FID card, NJ carry permit, or pistol purchase permit, along with government-issued photo ID, every time that person uses the range. That is an impossible burden for most ranges to meet - most ranges are unstaffed or staffed sporadically by volunteers. Few ranges have staff during all operating hours. NO SHOOTING ACTIVITY COULD OCCUR ON ANY RANGE THAT IS NOT STAFFED TO VERIFY CREDENTIALS.

The bills as presently written would also prevent you from using your own firearms on a range unless the range first verifies your credentials, every time you use the range, and bans all temporary transfer on a range unless the range verifies the credentials of both the transferor and transferee. THIS IMPACTS A HUGE SWATH OF SECOND AMENDMENT ACTIVITY, INCLUDING TRAINING, COMPETITION, TARGET PRACTICE, OPEN HOUSES, RANGE GUESTS, HUNTER EDUCATION, WOMEN'S EVENTS, ETC. (see below for detailed examples).

The bills, sponsored by Assemblyman Ralph Caputo (D28), are extremely overbroad and wide-ranging in their effect. Instead of narrowly addressing a specific limited problem, the bills cast an enormous net over every range in the state and every person that uses them, and would dramatically disrupt traditional Second Amendment activity that has occurred for decades without incident. Many ranges would be forced to close, and those able to stay open would be severely burdened and disrupted.

We have communicated our concerns to Assemblyman Caputo and have been told that bill amendments are forthcoming, but our request to postpone the December 5 hearing has not been accepted. As a result, based on past experience, there will likely be confusion at the hearing Monday, as it is declared that last-minute amendments (that have not been fully analyzed) address our concerns, when in fact they do not. We have seen this scenario many times in the past on firearms legislation and we have not seen one instance where last-minute amendments have adequately addressed gun owner concerns.

Please immediately contact all members of the Assembly Law & Public Safety Committee and Assemblyman Caputo and tell them to OPPOSE A4179 and A4180 or postpone the December 5 hearing. No one will be made safer by this legislation, and they should focus on targeted solutions directed at the specific issue they are trying to address, rather than a broad-brush approach that harms every NJ range and every person who uses them.

Click here for Legislator contact information.

Ultimately, A4179 and A4180 are based on a deeply flawed premise. Possession of a firearms ID card, pistol purchase permit, or carry permit is not an assurance that someone is not depressed or will not become depressed in the future. Nor would the legislation prevent those intent on committing suicide from doing so.

Possession of a firearms credential is merely an indication of prior history, not present mental state. Mental health professionals opine that the most effective way to reduce suicide risk is to recognize warning signs based on present mental state, yet the legislation does not in any way address present mental state, nor does it pose solutions targeted to the specific problem it seeks to address. As written, all the legislation does is harm ranges and gun clubs, and interfere with the exercise of Second Amendment rights in New Jersey.

Here are just a few examples of how this legislation, as currently written, would harm the entire Second Amendment community in New Jersey:

*"No papers, no target practice." Every gun owner would be required to present NJ firearms credentials to the owner or operator of a range before being allowed to use their own firearms on that range, every time they use the range. What if you're from out of state? Sorry. What if the club doesn't have staff to check credentials? Too bad.

* No shooting activities on unstaffed ranges (most gun clubs and ranges are not staffed). Shooting activity could only occur where staff exists to check credentials. Unstaffed ranges would lose members (because members wouldn't be allowed to shoot there), many clubs would be forced to close.

* Staffed ranges forced to become the "FID police." Of the few ranges with staff, most are non-profit clubs with occasional volunteer staff who cannot be conscripted into becoming full-time agents of the state to verify credentials. The few ranges that do have paid staff would be burdened into hiring additional personnel to meet the state's demands. Ranges that cannot afford to check credentials during all hours of operation would lose members and some would be forced to close.

* No more temporary transfer at ranges unless both parties have NJ credentials and display those credentials to the range owner / operator (regardless of whether the range is staffed or unstaffed - same concerns as above). New Jersey's longstanding law regarding temporary transfer of firearms on ranges has allowed hundreds of thousands of people to try many different shooting sports, without incident, before deciding whether to become a firearms owner. The legislation would shut down all of these lawful activities, including the ones discussed below.

* "You have to become a gun owner before you decide whether you want to become a gun owner." FIREARMS TRAINING, OPEN HOUSES, RANGE GUESTS, WOMENS' EVENTS, SPECIAL PROGRAMS, etc. would be shut down and unavailable to anyone without a firearms credential. Most people considering firearms ownership try it first, before obtaining credentials to purchase firearms. All of this activity would be stopped, and would negatively impact many ranges and clubs in the legislation as currently written. "Sorry, you can't even try target practice until the state has investigated you."

* Domestic Violence victims would be prevented from training with firearms while awaiting issuance of their firearm credentials, so they are proficient enough to protect themselves when their credentials are finally issued (in some jurisdictions, applicants wait over a year, in violation of state law). A domestic violence victim who does not yet have their firearms credentials should not be prevented from becoming trained and proficient in the meanwhile.

*Hunter education impeded. NJ hunter education firearms safety classes require live fire range exercises, and the State makes firearms available to participants who don't have their own firearms. The legislation would prevent this activity unless the student and teacher already have credentials, which is not always the case. Ironically, this legislation interferes with hunter safety training, and the revenue it generates for the state.

* Unsafe: Hunters prevented from sighting in or test-firing their firearms. Many out-of-state hunters sight-in their firearms or do test-firing at unstaffed wildlife management area ranges maintained by New Jersey. Those without NJ firearms credentials would be forbidden from doing so. But even hunters with NJ credentials (resident or not) would also be forbidden, since their credentials could not be displayed to the range owner / operator of an unstaffed wildlife management area range.

* Competitions impacted. Shooting is an Olympic sport, and NJ competitors have produced Olympic medals. Competitors coming into NJ would be forbidden from using their own firearms, or from using fellow competitors' firearms, unless they have NJ credentials (most do not). Competitions would be severely impacted.

Prevents non-residents from participating in popular, lawful NJ shooting sports and activities unless they have NJ credentials (most do not). Cuts off significant revenue and commerce coming into NJ, from which the state benefits. Dramatically harms ranges throughout the state.

* Military, Police & Agency range activities. As presently written, the legislation prevents anyone without an FID card, pistol purchase permit, or handgun carry permit from using their own firearms, or temporary transfer of others' firearms, on ranges. Active law enforcement in New Jersey rarely have these credentials, and many retired members of law enforcement do not obtain these credentials. Additionally, a whole host of military, agency, and other personnel are specifically exempted under NJ law from needing firearms credentials in the first place, and those personnel would also be impacted.

* Overwhelms an already overburdened and dysfunctional permitting system. The legislation could result in a deluge of applications for FID cards or other credentials. ANJRPC's Permitting StrikeForce has already painstakingly documented permitting abuses rampant throughout New Jersey's 565 municipalities. Many applicants have waited more than a year to receive permits that are required by law to be granted or denied within 30 days. The legislation could stimulate tens of thousands of new applications, which would overwhelm the existing dysfunctional system and slow it even further, significantly burdening Second Amendment rights.

* Toy guns included. Believe it or not, the use of BB guns and airguns would also be prohibited at shooting ranges in the absence of firearms credentials. That's because New Jersey law treats them as "firearms" even though they are considered toys everywhere else, and the legislation fails to exempt them from its overreach. Absurd!

* Youth exempted, but not adults??? Bizarrely, A4179 preserves specific exemptions for target practice, instruction and training by minors who don't have credentials, yet provides no similar exemptions for adults. Do legislators actually believe that adults pose a suicide risk, yet minors do not?

Please immediately contact all members of the Assembly Law & Public Safety Committee and Assemblyman Caputo and tell them to OPPOSE A4179 and A4180. No one will be made safer by this legislation, and they should focus on targeted solutions directed at the specific issue they are trying to address, rather than a broad-brush approach that harms every NJ range and every person who uses them.

Click here for Legislator contact information.

<click here for the online version of this alert>

 

 _________________________________________________________

 

The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs 

is the official NRA state affiliate in the Garden State 

 

 

 

 

_________________________________________________________________


 Support ANJRPC Every Time You Shop With Amazon!

 

Click Here to Shop Now! anjrpc.org/amazon

_________________________________________________________________

 

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This has been discussed, but the OP tagged the title with the wrong bill numbers:

 

http://www.njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/83672-a2666a2667-no-temporary-transfers/

 

Oopsy!! It seems we have 2 threads running about the same topic. How do I get an administrator to lock one of these? That's probably the best thing to do. Or merge, or whatever. Thanks!

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Has attendance at these hearings prevented any of these bills from moving forward ever? They very clearly have an agenda and no email or meeting seems like it would sway them even a little. Only thing they understand are lawsuits and votes

No, they always move forward and get passed. And we always lose the lawsuits.

 

And honestly, since NJ ranges want to burden NJ residents even further by adding ridiculous rules/policy's on top of already ridiculous State laws, I really don't give a darn if they go out of business. PA ranges are way more gun friendly anyway.

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These bills are bad on so many levels. A person visiting NJ from out of state (who wouldn't necessarily have an FID) might not be allowed to shoot (i.e. borrow a partner's weapons or rent a weapon).  That is, assuming the law would permit only NJ FID's to be accepted  by LGSs or ranges, etc. (as opposed to an out of state carry permit). 

I think, when visiting my last remaining family, I'll be staying and shooting in PA.

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No, they always move forward and get passed. And we always lose the lawsuits.

 

And honestly, since NJ ranges want to burden NJ residents even further by adding ridiculous rules/policy's on top of already ridiculous State laws, I really don't give a darn if they go out of business. PA ranges are way more gun friendly anyway.

You are attacking the horse whilst not seeing the carrot. If you're peripheral allows, glance the trail we are on.
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So let me see if I get this.  In order to drive you have to get a driver's license.  To get a driver's license you have to practice driving to pass the road test.  You cannot practice driving to take the test until you already hold a driver's license.  Did I get that correct?  Oh you also can't use someone else's car to take said driver's test.

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So let me see if I get this.  In order to drive you have to get a driver's license.  To get a driver's license you have to practice driving to pass the road test.  You cannot practice driving to take the test until you already hold a driver's license.  Did I get that correct?

 

Well, not quite. You have to have a "learner's permit" to "practice" driving. You apply for that at the Agency (most Driver's Ed. programs at high schools will do that for you). Then you must pass the written test and vision check. I assume you should have also had some education in driving, somewhere to be able to pass the written test, if not high school driver's ed. Once you pass the written test and vision check, the permit is then stamped for "practice driving," where you can drive with another licensed driver riding "shotgun." You should be able to bring any car to the road test as long as you have the registration and insurance card with you. 

 

At least, that's how it worked when I got my NJ DL in the mid 70's  :D

 

Oh you also can't use someone else's car to take said driver's test.

 

Sure, you can. As long as you have the car's registration and insurance card with you when you take it.  I used my father's VW Beetle to take the road test at the Lodi office.

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So let me see if I get this.  In order to drive you have to get a driver's license.  To get a driver's license you have to practice driving to pass the road test.  You cannot practice driving to take the test until you already hold a driver's license.  Did I get that correct?  Oh you also can't use someone else's car to take said driver's test.

 

 

I see what you did there.   :-)

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Well, not quite. You have to have a "learner's permit" to "practice" driving. You apply for that at the Agency (most Driver's Ed. programs at high schools will do that for you). Then you must pass the written test and vision check. I assume you should have also had some education in driving, somewhere to be able to pass the written test, if not high school driver's ed. Once you pass the written test and vision check, the permit is then stamped for "practice driving," where you can drive with another licensed driver riding "shotgun." You should be able to bring any car to the road test as long as you have the registration and insurance card with you. 

 

At least, that's how it worked when I got my NJ DL in the mid 70's  :D

 

 

Sure, you can. As long as you have the car's registration and insurance card with you when you take it.  I used my father's VW Beetle to take the road test at the Lodi office.

 

I think Howard was being sarcastic in his post.

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This law would be the death of the Second Amendment in New Jersey, as it would stifle any attempt to encourage people to try shooting before they undergo the arduous process of obtaining permits.  

 

And while it is probably unconstitutional, I don't see any way that NJ courts would rule against it.  

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This law would be the death of the Second Amendment in New Jersey, as it would stifle any attempt to encourage people to try shooting before they undergo the arduous process of obtaining permits.  

 

And while it is probably unconstitutional, I don't see any way that NJ courts would rule against it.  

 

Precisely their objective.   Always keep the "end game" in mind.... 

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These bills are bad on so many levels. A person visiting NJ from out of state (who wouldn't necessarily have an FID) might not be allowed to shoot (i.e. borrow a partner's weapons or rent a weapon).  That is, assuming the law would permit only NJ FID's to be accepted  by LGSs or ranges, etc. (as opposed to an out of state carry permit). 

I think, when visiting my last remaining family, I'll be staying and shooting in PA.

 

It's even worse than that.  The second bill prevents them from shooting their OWN guns at a range in Jersey without presenting their NJ FPID, PPP, or Carry License. 

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It's embarrassing that I don't know this... (admittedly poor understanding of civics)... but is this something Christie can/would veto?

 

Christie will have an opportunity to veto.  But we need to make sure that there is an unmistakable groundswell of opposition to these bills.  That helps support efforts to stop things like this.

 

Frankly this is the most cynical and aggressive attack on gun culture I think we have seen to date.  

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It's even worse than that.  The second bill prevents them from shooting their OWN guns at a range in Jersey without presenting their NJ FPID, PPP, or Carry License. 

 

That wouldn't matter so much to the "out of state" person, because none would dare bring their weapons into NJ to shoot them, since they'd be illegal (i.e. no "permanent domicile" for them to be transported to), for the most part. I know mine (even those that originated in NJ) will never see NJ  soil, ever again.... EVER! :codemafia:

 

Which brings up an interesting point.  Even if national reciprocity is passed, one way NJ can defeat it is by keeping the current "exemption structure" for firearms in place. Yes, you might have a valid out of state carry license/permit, but what good will that do if you still can't possess the weapon for which you have it?  Unless they change the exemptions to include "any person who has a valid out of state carry license or permit may possess and carry a handgun in places other than their permanent domicile, business or range, shop, etc." 

 

Which, of course, they'll never do. And the feds can't stop it because that has nothing to do with recognizing an out of state carry permit.  "Sure, we recognize the permit... we just don't allow you to possess the gun for which you have it."   :crazy:

 

 

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Christie will have an opportunity to veto.  But we need to make sure that there is an unmistakable groundswell of opposition to these bills.  That helps support efforts to stop things like this.

 

Frankly this is the most cynical and aggressive attack on gun culture I think we have seen to date.  

 

well, there was this little bit a few yrs ago    http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.anjrpc.org/resource/resmgr/ds-email/gun_control_list_03-22-13.pdf   . I call it the first draft of the NJ SAFE Act. If our next gov is a demorat-and very likely- you will see these in one form or another.

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Assembly Law and Public Safety - Monday, December 05, 2016 2:00 PM Committee Room 13, 4th Floor, State House Annex, Trenton, NJ

 

Three words:  Michael.Patrick.Carroll

 

I'll probably go to this.

 

Links to ridiculous bills 

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2016/Bills/A4500/4179_I1.PDF

 

http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2016/Bills/A4500/4180_I1.PDF

 

New Jersey Democrats SUCK.

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I hadn't anticipated something like this. Pure spite. Brilliant. Is it possible that it's so over the top even dems will vote it down?

 

What is this law meant to prevent? More salient: how can it ever be enforced? Will ranges be forced to keep detailed records of who goes?

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"According to the sponsor, the intent of this bill is to ensure the safety of patrons and personnel at firing ranges." 

 

That's some horse****. The purpose of this bill is to kill private clubs. They lack the staff to enforce this and the politicians know this. 

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As the goal of public policy is to create laws that benefit the largest number of people, how can they reasonably think it's OK to create a law that hurts millions of people to possibly protect a handful?  (And even if a few suicides are prevented at gun ranges, they can still be accomplished in other places by other means.)

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As the goal of public policy is to create laws that benefit the largest number of people, how can they reasonably think it's OK to create a law that

hurts millions of people to possibly protect a handful?  (And even if a few suicides are prevented at gun ranges, they can still be accomplished in

other places by other means.)

 

Again,  it isn't about the "stated objective" (preventing suicides). It's about the "underlying objective" (shutting down private ranges and reduce activities on them).  That done, then there is one less reason why private citizens should possess guns... no more ranges.  All towards the "end game" objective... CONFISCATE...CONFISCATE...CONFISCATE...

 

Always keep the end game in mind.

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