Kevin125 4,772 Posted December 24, 2016 Was considering this dual fuel GEn. Or a non-portable generac NG powered https://www.amazon.com/DuroMax-XP10000EH-Starting-Portable-Generator/dp/B00LT8S7IY/ref=pd_sbs_23_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00LT8S7IY&pd_rd_r=BFQS5YVGVQ3FXXC9ZPBJ&pd_rd_w=dm16N&pd_rd_wg=aXcHO&psc=1&refRID=BFQS5YVGVQ3FXXC9ZPBJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mustang69 505 Posted December 24, 2016 Fine print says ng on Predator products (gens) Worth trying anyway. I've gotten the discount on a couple of tool chests that are supposed to be exempt too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malsua 1,422 Posted December 25, 2016 Worth trying anyway. I've gotten the discount on a couple of tool chests that are supposed to be exempt too. The key to getting the discount on excluded items is to wait until the register is backed up and they call up up the idiot temp to open a second register. I got a 20% on my entire order even though the winch was supposed to have been excluded. It was completely unintentional on my part and I didn't notice until I was driving away and realized it was cheaper than I had expected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SmittyMHS 603 Posted December 26, 2016 http://8750 Peak/7000 Running Watts, 13 HP (420cc) Generator EPA III On sale now for $527.99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted December 27, 2016 Just got to use my generac XT8000 last night for a few hours. It basically a scaled down version of their pro model that only Lowe's carries. It also consistently starts with one decent pull, it doesnt need the battery unless you run Natagas. Well worth the investment. Lights up the entire house. All I run is my fridge, heat, well pump and 3 rooms for lights. The power bar barely lights ups. One of the gfci breakers trips when I flip the switch but it turns back on and stays on, which is odd because the other 5 don't trip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SmittyMHS 603 Posted December 27, 2016 GFI's don't last forever. Replace it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpyOldRetiree 38 Posted December 27, 2016 One of the gfci breakers trips when I flip the switch but it turns back on and stays on, which is odd because the other 5 don't trip. Are you referring to the gfci's in your breaker box? If so and you are feeding the house wiring through a 2 pole transfer switch (or using a "suicide cord") then that is a symptom of running a generator with a bonded neutral into your house wiring. In short, neutral and ground can only only be bonded in one place and in house wiring that's at the main breaker panel. Do an internet search for "commonly and seperately derived power systems" and generators. Most portable generators at HD and Lowes have bonded neutrals. Don't ignore this! There is potential (no electrical pun intended) for the generator frame to become energized with this condition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,137 Posted December 27, 2016 Are you referring to the gfci's in your breaker box? If so and you are feeding the house wiring through a 2 pole transfer switch (or using a "suicide cord") then that is a symptom of running a generator with a bonded neutral into your house wiring. In short, neutral and ground can only only be bonded in one place and in house wiring that's at the main breaker panel. Do an internet search for "commonly and seperately derived power systems" and generators. Most portable generators at HD and Lowes have bonded neutrals. Don't ignore this! There is potential (no electrical pun intended) for the generator frame to become energized with this condition. yes, that bonded stuff was confusing me when I looked into it. Is this correct?- If your gen is running to the breaker panel the bond on the gen should be "open" but when the gen is running free of the panel standing alone the bond should be intact? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malsua 1,422 Posted December 27, 2016 yes, that bonded stuff was confusing me when I looked into it. Is this correct?- If your gen is running to the breaker panel the bond on the gen should be "open" but when the gen is running free of the panel standing alone the bond should be intact? Yes, that's right. That said, most portable generators don't let you break the bond in the genset easily as it they are usually soldered together inside of one of the control boards. My suggestion in those cases is to connect all 4 wires in the umbilical on the genset end, and leave the ground wire unattached in the plug on the inlet to the house. This grounds everything, including the cord, but there is only one bonding of the ground and neutral, and that's in the house panel. It's not perfect, but it'll work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M1152 713 Posted December 27, 2016 yes, that bonded stuff was confusing me when I looked into it. Is this correct?- If your gen is running to the breaker panel the bond on the gen should be "open" but when the gen is running free of the panel standing alone the bond should be intact? take a look here's this may clear it up for you, I have a Transfer Switch and my manufacturer said I didn't need to do anything because the TS takes care of it.. https://youtu.be/69U8AugJKaI?t=8m51s 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,137 Posted December 27, 2016 Yes, that's right. That said, most portable generators don't let you break the bond in the genset easily as it they are usually soldered together inside of one of the control boards. My suggestion in those cases is to connect all 4 wires in the umbilical on the genset end, and leave the ground wire unattached in the plug on the inlet to the house. This grounds everything, including the cord, but there is only one bonding of the ground and neutral, and that's in the house panel. It's not perfect, but it'll work. take a look here's this may clear it up for you, I have a Transfer Switch and my manufacturer said I didn't need to do anything because the TS takes care of it.. https://youtu.be/69U8AugJKaI?t=8m51s I'm glad this bonding issue came up as I totally forgot about it. That gen in the vid is the same brand I have so it looks like an easy bond fix. Problem with disconecting the bond is now in theory you shouldnt hook anything up directly to the gen such as additional ext cords for tools, a fridge in the garage or a friendly line to the neighbor. The other idea of disconnecting the ground at the inlet (outside gen plug-in) on the 30amp line to the panel sounds like it will work but seems so damned wrong and counter intuitive lol. Not to mention it renders the ground/bus tie(meant neutral bar?) useless but need it for proper inspection but its a useless ground ...When i went for a permit for the portable gen hook up they didnt know what to do, no pprwrk because never been asked for before and no nearby town could offer input so I had to wait while they invented new apps and then had to sign a waiver that I wouldnt fire up the gen within 10' of combustables/building. I think the learning curve will eventually catch up and the town & electrical inspector will have to figure something out addressing this bonding thing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpyOldRetiree 38 Posted December 28, 2016 I'm glad this bonding issue came up as I totally forgot about it. That gen in the vid is the same brand I have so it looks like an easy bond fix. Problem with disconecting the bond is now in theory you shouldnt hook anything up directly to the gen such as additional ext cords for tools, a fridge in the garage or a friendly line to the neighbor. The other idea of disconnecting the ground at the inlet (outside gen plug-in) on the 30amp line to the panel sounds like it will work but seems so damned wrong and counter intuitive lol. Not to mention it renders the ground/bus tie useless but need it for proper inspection but its a useless ground ...When i went for a permit for the portable gen hook up they didnt know what to do, no pprwrk because never been asked for before and no nearby town could offer input so I had to wait while they invented new apps and then had to sign a waiver that I wouldnt fire up the gen within 10' of combustables/building. I think the learning curve will eventually catch up and the town & electrical inspector will have to figure something out addressing this bonding thing.... After 30+ years of living in areas that frequently require access to backup power I offer the following observations: Regarding the difficulty of "floating" the neutral on a portable generator: I've owned 3 portable generators in my life. A Debillvis, a Generac and currently a Multiquip Wisperwatt. All of them were bonded to ground external of the generator head and each of them only required finding the wire (usually green) coming from the generator head that went to a generator chassis ground. Its easier if you have the schematic of the generator, but far from difficult if you know how to use an ohmmeter to verify that the neutral is floating from ground. (GENERATOR OFF!!!) Additionally, after you disconnect the bonding wire verify that attaching the transfer cord to the house does result in a neutral/ground bond at the generator outlets. (AGAIN...GENERATOR OFF). From an operational standpoint, you should connect the transfer cord before starting the generator to provide a proper equipment ground for the generator frame at all times and don't disconnect the cord until the generator is shut down. If you do "float" the neutral of a portable generator you should attach a placard stating that fact to the generator. When using a transfer switch to attach a portable generator to you house on a temporary basis, the only thing that gets an electrical inspection (subject to the NEC) is the wiring from the generator inlet box to the transfer switch and then to the individual circuits you are powering. Additionally the transfer switch gets checked for UL listing (I think) to make sure the interlock prevents you from having street power and generator power connected at the same time. To my understanding, the portable generator is not subject to the NEC. It IS covered by OSHA regulations because it is considered a portable "job site" generator. Over the years, there has been a lot of confusion regarding the proper wiring of transfer switches. So much so that several editions ago, the NEC added sections to address the issue. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think that sections 250.20 thru 250.34 deals with the bulk of it. The "Code-Check" electrical book has a pretty good illustrated explanation of the proper way to wire each kind of transfer switch as well as explaining the bonded/floating neutral issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted December 28, 2016 Just spoke to the electrician for my new place. I told him I'd be using a portable generator first - so he's going to hook up the plug and do the switching in the circuit breaker panel, etc. There's no need for the transfer switch since I'm not using a whole-house generator (not in the budget currently). It would require completely re-wiring the input from the outside and doing the inside panels.... that's further on down the line. If it comes to the fact that I need to use the generator, I can plug it in and keep the mains off and only enable what I need (heat/ac/fridge/etc.). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,137 Posted December 28, 2016 Just spoke to the electrician for my new place. I told him I'd be using a portable generator first - so he's going to hook up the plug and do the switching in the circuit breaker panel, etc. There's no need for the transfer switch since I'm not using a whole-house generator (not in the budget currently). It would require completely re-wiring the input from the outside and doing the inside panels.... that's further on down the line. If it comes to the fact that I need to use the generator, I can plug it in and keep the mains off and only enable what I need (heat/ac/fridge/etc.). let us know what he says/does about the bonding issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M1152 713 Posted December 28, 2016 There's no need for the transfer switch since I'm not using a whole-house generator (not in the budget currently). Keep in mind in general you will find the “whole house generator” uses an Automatic Transfer Switch because everything is automated. The power goes off, the whole house gen comes on and power is transferred via the Automatic TS and you’re done. If you do the Portable Gen & Transfer Switch those Transfer Switches are Manual TS’s which means you roll out the Gen connect to your Inlet and manually throw each switch to transfer power from the gen. Sounds like your guy is steering you towards the Interlock device for you which consists of the Interlock device itself and another 30Amp breaker that’s back feeds your panel. So your method would be similar to the TS. To enter gen mode you would roll out your portable and connect to your Inlet and turn off ALL breakers including the Main and then throw the back feed breaker to the On position. Then you would turn on your selected breakers one at a time... Below is a good vid on the interlock device by a DIY guy https://youtu.be/GbtRxcb-cmA The upside is of the Interlock system is it gives you the freedom to toggle between circuits but in the end you still be aware of you amperage draw & load balancing. I opted for the Transfer switch because I only have a 100amp service there was no way to squeeze in another 30amp breaker in my already filled panel to do an Interlock. The 8 circuits I selected are the day-to-day ones needed to run our home. Plus I load balanced my TS with which means I had to relocate a few circuits from one leg to the other to even out the draw. That’s done by metering out everything in advance with an Amp probe and recording the values before you even start. So when I’m in gen mode my gauges are pretty much in sync. What you don’t want is one side drawing 3000 watts and the other side only drawing 300 watts, that’s kind of an extreme example but you get the idea. If you do the Interlock I would suggest investing in a set of gauges to go along with your system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted December 28, 2016 Correct - interlock. It will be a manual process instead of automatic. And yes, there will be a 30A plug outside. let us know what he says/does about the bonding issue. I will check on this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted December 29, 2016 I pulled the neutral off where it was bonded to ground. It was located in the alternator access. I can't find any other places they are tied in behind the panel. All of the other gfci breakers do not trip, just one out of 7. It's a xt8000 generac if anyone has suggestions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted December 29, 2016 I pulled the neutral off where it was bonded to ground. It was located in the alternator access. I can't find any other places they are tied in behind the panel. All of the other gfci breakers do not trip, just one out of 7. It's a xt8000 generac if anyone has suggestions. replace gfci Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vzguy 13 Posted January 1, 2017 I have the 8750 from from HF. Works great. Just started it Tuesday for my monthly shakedown. Started on 2nd pull. Current coupons for that unit: http://www.hfqpdb.com/best_coupon/8750+PEAK+_+7000+RUNNING+WATTS+13+HP+%28420+CC%29+GAS+GENERATOR And the 4000: http://www.hfqpdb.com/coupons/110_ITEM_4000_PEAK_3200_RUNNING_WATTS_6.5_HP__212_CC__GAS_GENERATORS_1475544000.7493.jpg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,137 Posted January 3, 2017 After 30+ years of living in areas that frequently require access to backup power I offer the following observations: Regarding the difficulty of "floating" the neutral on a portable generator: I've owned 3 portable generators in my life. A Debillvis, a Generac and currently a Multiquip Wisperwatt. All of them were bonded to ground external of the generator head and each of them only required finding the wire (usually green) coming from the generator head that went to a generator chassis ground. Its easier if you have the schematic of the generator, but far from difficult if you know how to use an ohmmeter to verify that the neutral is floating from ground. (GENERATOR OFF!!!) Additionally, after you disconnect the bonding wire verify that attaching the transfer cord to the house does result in a neutral/ground bond at the generator outlets. (AGAIN...GENERATOR OFF). From an operational standpoint, you should connect the transfer cord before starting the generator to provide a proper equipment ground for the generator frame at all times and don't disconnect the cord until the generator is shut down. If you do "float" the neutral of a portable generator you should attach a placard stating that fact to the generator. When using a transfer switch to attach a portable generator to you house on a temporary basis, the only thing that gets an electrical inspection (subject to the NEC) is the wiring from the generator inlet box to the transfer switch and then to the individual circuits you are powering. Additionally the transfer switch gets checked for UL listing (I think) to make sure the interlock prevents you from having street power and generator power connected at the same time. To my understanding, the portable generator is not subject to the NEC. It IS covered by OSHA regulations because it is considered a portable "job site" generator. Over the years, there has been a lot of confusion regarding the proper wiring of transfer switches. So much so that several editions ago, the NEC added sections to address the issue. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think that sections 250.20 thru 250.34 deals with the bulk of it. The "Code-Check" electrical book has a pretty good illustrated explanation of the proper way to wire each kind of transfer switch as well as explaining the bonded/floating neutral issue. Good stuff. I liked the idea of a warning placard and I did just that. In short, stating the neutral/ground bond is disconnected and not to use in "stand alone" mode unless it is re-.connected and to confirm the jumper status before use. I'm thinking of rigging an exterior bond switch but may be more trouble than its worth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rscalzo 3 Posted January 3, 2017 Be careful of the cheaper models. They don't have the filitered current needed for electronics and can easily destroy the cercuits of a heating system. A transfer box is also a muct. I have a 8kw Generac that runs most esential systems in the house. Heat, well, some lights, refrogerator. If I ever have to replace it, I'm going to a 11kw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M1152 713 Posted January 4, 2017 Good stuff. I liked the idea of a warning placard and I did just that. In short, stating the neutral/ground bond is disconnected and not to use in "stand alone" mode unless it is re-.connected and to confirm the jumper status before use. I'm thinking of rigging an exterior bond switch but may be more trouble than its worth. I spoke with someone over the weekend about the bonding saga and the guy did concede keeping the bond in place while connected to you panel is out of sync with what the electrical code calls for but he went on to say to it is not likely that a code inspector is going to drill down this far to find this because the generator isn’t part of the house. He reiterated several times if we don’t have any other electrical faults the bonding dilemma isn’t not going to do any harm unless you are having issues with GFI’s tripping. He said main reason people get bent out of shape on this is because there is something like 6 volts going to ground in the bonded configuration and Generators with the onboard 120 volt GFI outlets don’t like that and trip. In my case I have the standard 120volt outlets on my generator without the GFI protection (that I don’t use anyway) so it’s a non-issue for me. However I do have three GFI circuits in my house in my kitchen, bath and basement and with the home powered up by Gen none of those GFI outlets ever tripped due to the generator. Just to add what has already been discussed if you’re thinking of removing the bond the guy I spoke with said check with your Gen’s manufacturer to see if lifting the bond off will void your warranty. He offered the following for a workaround if the Gen can’t be modified for warranty concerns or any other reason. He said his company uses a modified generator side/male 240volt plug. He said they completely remove the ground connector and then tie the neutral and ground wires together inside the plug and connect both of those wires to the neutral connector inside the plug. So with their modification with the ground connector removed both your neutral and ground are then terminated to the Gen’s 240volt neutral supply side receptacle while the female side is connected normally to the Inlet box in or on the home. He said the Code people won’t indorse or reject this configuration but at the end of the day it satisfies the code itself. So in my view this could be good option because you get the best of both worlds. You’re neutral is still bonded to the frame so if for some reason you wanted to run you gen in standalone mode and you’re code compliant while connected to your home panel by way of your Inlet box. All that being said do what works best for you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,137 Posted January 4, 2017 I spoke with someone over the weekend about the bonding saga and the guy did concede keeping the bond in place while connected to you panel is out of sync with what the electrical code calls for but he went on to say to it is not likely that a code inspector is going to drill down this far to find this because the generator isn’t part of the house. He reiterated several times if we don’t have any other electrical faults the bonding dilemma isn’t not going to do any harm unless you are having issues with GFI’s tripping. He said main reason people get bent out of shape on this is because there is something like 6 volts going to ground in the bonded configuration and Generators with the onboard 120 volt GFI outlets don’t like that and trip. In my case I have the standard 120volt outlets on my generator without the GFI protection (that I don’t use anyway) so it’s a non-issue for me. However I do have three GFI circuits in my house in my kitchen, bath and basement and with the home powered up by Gen none of those GFI outlets ever tripped due to the generator. Just to add what has already been discussed if you’re thinking of removing the bond the guy I spoke with said check with your Gen’s manufacturer to see if lifting the bond off will void your warranty. He offered the following for a workaround if the Gen can’t be modified for warranty concerns or any other reason. He said his company uses a modified generator side/male 240volt plug. He said they completely remove the ground connector and then tie the neutral and ground wires together inside the plug and connect both of those wires to the neutral connector inside the plug. So with their modification with the ground connector removed both your neutral and ground are then terminated to the Gen’s 240volt neutral supply side receptacle while the female side is connected normally to the Inlet box in or on the home. He said the Code people won’t indorse or reject this configuration but at the end of the day it satisfies the code itself. So in my view this could be good option because you get the best of both worlds. You’re neutral is still bonded to the frame so if for some reason you wanted to run you gen in standalone mode and you’re code compliant while connected to your home panel by way of your Inlet box. All that being said do what works best for you Yea. I came across that plug re-wire in my research travels. It is an option for sure but my cord is a somewhat pricey gen cord with the plugs being a solid molded unibody type and dont come apart, not going to play with that and know I can make one whenever. And not worried about any warrenty the tri fuel negated that anyway lol. All this bond info is good to know and i am smarterer for it now and comfortable knowing whats what. Bottem line if the gen is needed its gtg with or w/o the bond, natural gas, reg gas,or propane. My mission is done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M1152 713 Posted January 4, 2017 Yea. I came across that plug re-wire in my research travels. It is an option for sure but my cord is a somewhat pricey gen cord with the plugs being a solid molded unibody type and dont come apart, not going to play with that and know I can make one whenever. And not worried about any warrenty the tri fuel negated that anyway lol. All this bond info is good to know and i am smarterer for it now and comfortable knowing whats what. Bottem line if the gen is needed its gtg with or w/o the bond, natural gas, reg gas,or propane. My mission is done. Understood, I was one of the earlier adopters here on the forum to do the Tri-fuel conversion and install a Transfer Switch so when Sandy hit we were up and running with the bond still in place. Anyhow I figured I’d pass that along because I wanted to know more about it myself and the guy I spoke with knew his stuff. The cable mod seems like a good solution because you could run it either mode but then again for us it is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted January 4, 2017 You know you could just ground the genny right? My Honda has a ground lug. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M1152 713 Posted January 4, 2017 You know you could just ground the genny right? My Honda has a ground lug. The Neutral and Ground Bond at the generator is a separate issue. What we were talking about has to do with pacifying the electrical code & resolving tripping issues with on-board 120volt GFI protected outlets if present. Edit: typo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted January 4, 2017 Look at the white and copper only wires in you panel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M1152 713 Posted January 4, 2017 @ zeke - without rehashing the entire exchange go back and look at post #43 where he provides a nicely written overview, or look at the youtube link I posted in #41 if you require further explanation. If your Honda’s neutral is isolated then none of this wound even apply to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted January 4, 2017 Your panel is typically grounded to the water pipe and 2 ground rods no less then 6 " apart. If guys are trippen breakers or worried about shocking themselves ground the genny. Your neutral (white) and ground( copper) share the same bus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted January 4, 2017 How many wires come into your house? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites