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capt14k

Lack of C&R Interest

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Why is there such a lack of Milsurp Interest on this forum? It is the only forum I go to that seems to have little if any interest in Milsurps. Especially with the ridiculous firearms laws in PRNJ one would think certain Milsurp Rifles would be very popular here like they are in Kalifornia. Rifles like the SKS and FN-49. Yet I see very little if any Milsurps on this forum section, on the for sale section, at the range, or in LGS.

 

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I think there is a lack of interest in C&R in general, everywhere, and that will accelerate, for a number of reasons.

 

First, we have MANY new guns every year. When you got  10 new handguns ever year on the market, people had time and boredom to look at old guns. Now we have 100 new handguns and 100 new long guns on the market every year. The is simply less time for people to get bored and look at old guns.

 

Second, we are passing the magic mark when foreign and domestic C&R timeline has moved over the point where armies switched from bolt or semi, to select fire. That means there will be almost no "new" C&R military guns on the market. What is there now, it is all their will be, and even the supply of bolt guns will eventually dry up.

 

Third, the market was flooded, as the gates open to Eastern and Middle East armories and we seen boat loads of Mauser and Mosin's and SKS's all float to the US, everyone and their grandmother can have 3 of them for pocket change. That reduces interest and passion for some people who like to be strange weirdo in the corner with a gun no one else has.  This isn't the day when Mausers were bring backs, you can pick one up at every gun store. 

 

Fourth, for a while the quality of C&R guns exceeded that of commercial products in certain areas. That is gone and done with, the modern market ensure that we have excellent firearms in every possible strange format.

 

Fifth, turn the clock back a few decades and no one blinked at customizing military guns to their spec, including high end custom shops building guns for africa. Now people who do that get yelled at for being bubba's which isn't exactly a way to encourage participation in the C&R world when there are containers full of guns available for sale.

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AR15: You can pick off prairie dogs at 300 meters all day long
AK47: You can pick off a deer pretty easy at 300 meters
Mosin-Nagant: You get out of your truck, see an elk on top of a hill, and realize you really can use iron sights that far.

AR15: You measure your misses by sub MOA measurements
AK47: You miss and, and aim a bit lower this time.
Mosin-Nagant: Even if you miss the shockwave of the bullet will kill the animal.

AR15: You are careful to keep in clean in the field.
AK47: You don’t worry so much about some dirt getting in it.
Mosin-Nagant: It still has gritty grease inside it from when the Finnish army put it into storage.

AR15: Your bayonet will do an alright job of butchering your kill if needed.
AK47: The bayonet doubles as a decent hunting knife.
Mosin-Nagant: Your bayonet can be used to spit roast an entire pig.

AR15: Nice and light for carrying over obstructions.
AK47: Handy package for carrying over obstructions.
Mosin-Nagant: You can pole vault over obstructions.

AR15: Can’t run dry or you get seizure.
AK47: Can run dry, but may cause laquered ammo to stick in chamber.
Mosin-Nagant: Just handling the bolt gives it enough oil to operate smoothly.

 

Love my Mosin!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwit7d3cmMTRAhUJLSYKHaxDD7cQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F124623114666153290%2F&psig=AFQjCNE5rxWWHHEvDlz3Nl2Jx-Weayvxng&ust=1484571169331167

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Fifth, turn the clock back a few decades and no one blinked at customizing military guns to their spec, including high end custom shops building guns for africa. Now people who do that get yelled at for being bubba's which isn't exactly a way to encourage participation in the C&R world when there are containers full of guns available for sale.

While the other points do move people away from C&R, I say this is why you don't see people post about them.

 

I love historic firearms. With the exception of the Krag, I have most of the major rifles of the US military from the Trapdoor up through the M14 (it's an M1A, but as close as I can get; I do have ARs, but my upcoming build will be an actual A2 based one). I have Yugo, Russian, and Romanian guns that are C&R... but also have modern (and NJ legal) versions of other firearms (1911, Tavor, Henry 1860, a few of the Browning shotguns).

 

I'm actually a member on a few of the C&R forums that you (capt14k) are on, but I really don't use them for any more than referencing information. While I don't sporterize guns, which actually turns me away from most rifles, I like my guns shootable and looking decent. If I purchased a $300 handgun, and want to refinish it, I shouldn't be guilted into shame because I chose to do that.

 

I had a Winchester 1897 from the 1920s that I wanted to turn into a "modern" shotgun... which was fueled because of the takedown mechanism with the design (you can store an 18" barreled gun in an 18" container). I opted to not do it due to the wear on certain parts (sold it), which made the reassembly difficult, but if I did, I would have been tarred and feathered for it. I did pick up an IAC gun, which is in riot configuration... but a solid frame design, so can't break it down.

 

I have a refinished Greek M1903 that I sent to DGR for a rebuild. Again, I like rifles to look good, and while I thought DGR was a good place, Dean (when he was alive and running it) sent me back a rifle that he did $1,400 worth of work on with a broken rear sight that I repaired prior to sending it in. Windage would work, but you would have to start it with your hand... which my OCD really didn't like. This was about when I got my Garand (a Century built Lithgow receiver... which functions great with a brand new Danish VAR barrel), and also a PU sniper, but couldn't sell the M1903 without a huge loss. So, looked around and had it turned into a USMC sniper reproduction.

 

IMG_0552.jpg

 

My collection is pretty unique, and I like having things that aren't common... that being one of them (most people build/buy A4 reproductions). I never have stated that gun was an original, and always made sure to state it was a reproduction when talking about it. On another forum that I'm more associated with, I made a thread about the rifle, and mentioned who did the work. Was very impressed with them (Iron Sight INC). Also vented because the mail lady decided to leave this rifle sitting outside in the rain... without a signature or and bags. Luckily someone noticed it early and got it out before the padding soaked up. But in any event, most people were interested in it... as it wasn't a common variation. However, one guy has to stop in and tell me that isn't a USMC sniper rifle... and will never be. No crap, I said as much when I wrote reproduction. Then, I was lectured on how I destroyed the history of the rifle, and pretty much, I'm a bad person for doing it. Well, my money went into the work, and I'm happy with it... so, last time I checked, someone who didn't put one dollar towards the gun has no say in what I do.

 

Likewise, the C&R section of AR15.com is ran by similar people... but a little more excessive. I got a magazine extension for my PU sniper. Not restocking the gun with a polymer stock, but also nothing that required any permanent modification to the rifle. Again, same opinions about it. But I then noticed the thread was moved to General Discussion. Why? It is strictly about a C&R rifle, which doesn't show any modification. Moderator pretty much said, "tough!" Stopped posting in that section after that.

 

I picked up a compensator for that same rifle off eBay. Again, something I never saw... but figured it would be unique. Happened to see people talking about it on a C&R forum... and it was like sacrilege that the guy used a bayonet, cut the spike off, and welded/refinished it. Better design than the clamp on ones that usually end up being shot down the range.

 

There are definitely C&R guys that are a wealth of information. And most are good people to talk to. But when new people cross that line, isn't it better to maturely discuss why they feel like that was a bad decision than just call people out? C&R is such a closed group because of that, as I rather get called out for a modification I made on my AR being a bad choice for a reason than just the modification being done on a C&R rifle. Someone refinished a stock, it did take them time to get to that point. While it might not be "right" for some people, condemning that person pretty tells them that the investment they put in (time) and their achievement (being happy with how it came out) isn't worth anything. That is a very good way to drive people away from C&R guns... and even firearms, in general.

 

I personally don't care what others think. If I did, I would have the collection I have. While I know there are guys that have S&W 3rd Generation guns in 10mm... how many have an FBI 15 round magazine for theirs? People have Trapdoor rifles... but how many have a Custer-era Carbine? How about a 9mm Airweight, which is notably called a 942 (one was produced, and S&W never followed through after Wiley Clapp said nobody would buy it)? How many people have a D/I .45 AR? And how many people have practice grenades to use with their Yugo M59/66s (at least one other member, because that is why I got one [emoji41])? Only thing I could get to make it better would be a .45 Luger... well, I'm sure there are some in between, but that would be cool.

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I think you will see a rise in interest in C&R. All the kiddies playing BF1 are asking their shooting parents about weapons from this era. This in turn is turning on a light bulb for said parents that they could go pick up a few C&R's to take the opportunity to have a teachable moment with Jr. and get them out to the range.

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Vlad G no offense meant but do you venture outside NJ often on forums or to shows? Milsurps are huge right now. Prices just came off their all time highs. Every piece of junk Classic put up sold out in minutes at double the going rate. Milsurp collecting is alive and well. Just not in NJ whether it is on this forum or at the local LGS. NY, PA, CA, GA, and New England forums just to name a few Milsurps are very active especially compared to NJ.

 

I am interested in reading the opinions though of those in NJ.

 

For me personally black rifles are me too guns. I have 3 of them AR-15 variant, AR-10, and Beretta CX4 Storm. I can get three more today in a click of the button. As Screwball said how many have those rare pieces. By the way the last .45 Luger I saw sell for $100,000.

 

Screwball I know exactly what you mean. I got blasted on RMNF for putting my Arisaka back to original configuration by adding the missing parts such as monopod and AA sights. I said I wanted to find the right numbered bolt and they went crazy. I personally would never refinish a rifle or sporterize it. I look for ones in the condition I can live with. However once someone owns the rifle they can use it for kindling wood if they so choose. I may try to nicely talk them out of it, but it is America and they have the right to do what they want.

 

For those looking for a $79 Mosin that maybe tough but Omega is selling $99 T53 Chinese Mosins. Russian Refurbs are back down to a reasonable $150. Over the summer I saw people paying $330 for common Russian 91/30 refurbs a with the accessories and $275 without the accessories.

 

I said the prices were unsustainable. For instance Classic selling RC Mausers for $700. Many people got upset by this. Mainly because they look at their collections as a retirement fund. The RC Mausers are back to $350 which I wouldn't buy one even at that price, but it is a fair price. To me a RC Mauser is equivalent to a Mitchell's Mauser, just not in as nice condition. I know others feel different, but I don't collect Russian Rifles unless they were rebuilt by the Finns.

 

I also agree BF1 will bring interest to the WWI firearms. That combined with the fact that the greatest WWI collection in the world is being sold this summer. JPS says he is retiring and selling just about everything. The photos attached are just a small sampling.

 

As more old timers die off prices will continue to drop. That's why I am patient and refuse to over pay. I also don't see my collection as a retirement fund. I collect because I enjoy the history of them and shooting them. Many collectors say I'm crazy and prices will continue to rise, but I've seen many guys in their 70s with 1,000 rifles. As they hit the market and are being sold by their heirs there just isn't enough demand to maintain the high prices.

 

Sorry for the super long post but I at least tried to break it into sections.

 

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Capt14k the only thing I take exception to in your comments is that black rifles are "me too" guns. In my opinion they are "for me" guns in that they can be very specifically tailored to the individual or the roll or task they are trying to fulfill. This speaks volumes to the flexibility of the AR platform and contributes heavily to its popularity. What other platform can be tailored from everything from a 9mm all the way up to magnum calibers, covering hunting to plinking to long range to door kicking? Now if you want to talk collectible or rare rifles, just like in C&R, that exists in black rifles too. Ill show you a factory AR that you would be extremely hard pressed to find its twin, it is reportedly a 1 of 1. The ONLY thing close is government trade ins to the manufacturer that was made publically available for sale in a VERY small quantity. In other words very rare. Many people have a lot of black rifles but many people that do have each one configured differently for their specific purpose unless they are doing the backup gun thing which you find amongst competitors or people dedicated to training. As much as Im sure you wouldn't want people of other factions of firearm enthusiasts to lump all C&R guys into the cosmoline sniffing. wall hanging, dust collector category, perhaps its worthy of consideration that some in the black rifle crowd are a little deeper than "me too" as well.

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Hey don't knock bf1 the sebtlentander 1916 is bad ass. :neener

 

I'm the opposite, when I first got into firearms (6 years ago) mil surp was cheap and I picked up a few mosins and a carcano. This year I sold my $100 mosin for $200 and my $80 carcano for $300. Both profits when to my highly customizable and way more effective black rifles which are now on the price decline

 

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COD.  COD.  COD.

 

I think it generally depends on the generational ratio on the boards (Mall Ninja Millenial vs Old-Timer).

 

My old-timer coworker keeps talking about how he wanted to be that guy in the back of the Jeep swinging the Ma Deuce around in the Rat Patrol and carrying a Tommy gun.

 

I have no idea what he's talking about.

 

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global-all-time-unit-sales-call-of-duty-

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9776b9b9dbcefea833aae871a07fea2b.jpg

 

I'm not saying my xbox is in this bag but I'm not saying it isn't in this bag with a copy of battlefield one. I might also have a 1950s sears pump gun in the back for clays from my grandfather

 

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Vlad G no offense meant but do you venture outside NJ often on forums or to shows?

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Yep, My first rifles were mil surplus. I spent a lot of time on those forums starting 15-17years ago. The back row of my safe is made of milsurpus. From where I'm standing the level of interest and tone of the conversations have changed quite a bit over the years. It may be that it is back on the rise, but whenever I check in I quickly check back out for the same reasons.

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It could be due to a lack of connection with the current crop of people into this vein of pursuit. I am member 810 on Snipers Hide. I don't talk there at all these days. Almost all the people I interacted with are long gone, driven out by a "different" crowd. Doesn't change my interest, only in my interest where I participate in conversation.

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Yep, My first rifles were mil surplus. I spent a lot of time on those forums starting 15-17years ago. The back row of my safe is made of milsurpus. From where I'm standing the level of interest and tone of the conversations have changed quite a bit over the years. It may be that it is back on the rise, but whenever I check in I quickly check back out for the same reasons.

You are right about the tone and level of interest. Many of the newer guys think they know everything right away because they read an article, forum post, or one book. I've seen them gang up and argue with guys who have forgotten more than all of them know combined. Happened recently with a clearly refinished vz-24. This has driven many of the true experts away from the forums. Along with the attitude of the Mods on a certain forum.

 

However the experts are still out there and collecting. I communicate via phone and email with many of them. Also some of the newer collectors are coming in thinking everything they buy they are going to get rich off of. This a artificially drove up the prices. The interest overall is alive and well. Just doesn't seem to be much of it in NJ.

 

As for my black rifle comment I guess it was unfair. Being I didn't think about the guys actually competing with them. I was more referring to the guys that buy multiple PSA ARs and don't compete. I can't for the life of me understand why someone would want multiples of essentially the same thing. Maybe its because the like building them?

 

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Could be. It is manly legos for some :D. But remove the actual subject matter and all of this is wash rinse repeat. I could change the discussion items to motorcycles, hot rods, long range shooting, diesel trucks or any subject that has become popular and you will have the group with, lets just say, different personality traits, come in and drive off the real experts and seriously irritate the real enthusiasts. But keep in mind this IS the group we will buy up all their items for a discount when they change to their next great interest :D

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Captain, those are some super cool pics !

I am not (yet) into C&R because I only got into guns recently and need standard stuff before I move on. I do have 5 AR's in various states of assembly, bit I still have not picked up my first Glock (blasted permit waits), and I need at least one revolver before at look at C&R. And two shotguns, and I want a CX4, and a AR 10, and a LR bolt gun, and I want a 1911, or maybe a hi power. And money is hard to come by. My point is that for guys only into this a few years there is a lot to buy before C&R.

 

BTW screwball, on the AR forum I am a member on there is a group buy going on for a custom A2 M16 lower.

http://ar15armory.com/forums/topic/172231-custom-m16-a2-marked-lower-receivers/?hl=%2Bcustom+%2Blower

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Captain, those are some super cool pics !

I am not (yet) into C&R because I only got into guns recently and need standard stuff before I move on. I do have 5 AR's in various states of assembly, bit I still have not picked up my first Glock (blasted permit waits), and I need at least one revolver before at look at C&R. And two shotguns, and I want a CX4, and a AR 10, and a LR bolt gun, and I want a 1911, or maybe a hi power. And money is hard to come by. My point is that for guys only into this a few years there is a lot to buy before C&R.

 

BTW screwball, on the AR forum I am a member on there is a group buy going on for a custom A2 M16 lower.

http://ar15armory.com/forums/topic/172231-custom-m16-a2-marked-lower-receivers/?hl=%2Bcustom+%2Blower

Now why did you buy 5 ARs? Do you compete or just like building them? I'm just curious.

 

If you like the AR try the original a French MAS44, 49, or 49/56. Below is one of each type in the same order. Those are mine. The previous pics are not mine. That is the collection coming up for sale by JPS. I wish I had a collection like that or even my collection displayed as nice as his. His collection has been in numerous books, magazines, and documentaries.

 

9522a57e4c8a68543f6158ff5e64ebba.jpg

 

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^^^^THIS. I would love to get a Mosin, but cannot find the $79 Mosin everyone else talks about. That tells me either I am not looking at right places or demand surpassing supply.

Your about 5 years too late to the game for a $79 mosin. But they used to exist. Guys like me bought crates of 20 for about $1099 about a decade ago. Now I've been selling them for $300. If it's one I don't want to keep in my collection anymore. Shit I got $100 just for one of the crates they came in.

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These days are over I'm afraid...

 

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Yes they are likely done unless of course Russia has a stash of them and they are allowed to import again.

 

For those fans of the ARs check out Calguns it's like a fire sale because of the new laws.

 

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I have five because I really like them, and I like how I understand how they work. A very large attraction is that I never need to spend more than $100 at a time. I wanted a 6.5 Grendel so I got the .264 which uses a 7.62x39 BCG. Once I had that I figured it may be a good idea to get something that shoots 7.62x39 before the election and as much as I want an AK I can't afford one. Of course once I have a lower I may as well shoot the most common calibers so I got a .223 and have parts for a 9mm. With the ability to get lowers for cheap I have a few and am looking into a .45 AR to match my Glock 41.

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BTW screwball, on the AR forum I am a member on there is a group buy going on for a custom A2 M16 lower.

http://ar15armory.com/forums/topic/172231-custom-m16-a2-marked-lower-receivers/?hl=%2Bcustom+%2Blower

Thanks, but have a lower on the way to my FFL... got something plain.

 

It actually might be an A3 build, being Stag does the upper I'll be going with, and it has a removable carry handle.

 

Now why did you buy 5 ARs? Do you compete or just like building them? I'm just curious.

I have three, going on four, because I like shooting them...

 

Shotgun wise, I have a total of nine... and that doesn't include a .410 upper I have. Hunting shotguns, I have two 11-87s; one is a dedicated slug gun, the other is a field gun. There are different roles for different guns.

 

My ARs are setup for specific roles. My first one was a 16", with an Aimpoint and magnifier. I do have the .22 and .410 uppers that I specifically used with that lower... but I could toss them on the other lowers if needed (I like the .22 on the next lower I mention).

 

After that, my second AR was a lightweight pistol caliber rifle. I made a D/I .45 ACP rifle that is under seven pounds. Originally built it for an ex that had issues shooting, but made sure it was something I'd like if we broke up... which happened before I pieced it all together.

 

My third AR was more of a scoped one, but combined it with my first FDE build. My guns usually are traditional colors... black, blue, nickel, stainless, and/or wood. Wanted an AR with some magnification, and it sort of bridges the gap between my red dot ARs and my .308s (whether it is the NM M1A or my Remington Model 7).

 

This upcoming build, I wanted something more utilitarian than what I have. None of my ARs are basic as an M16/M4 clone... and since I hate pinned stocks, the A2/A3 look was best. I would like to toss in one of those binary triggers and have a third position... but don't think it is worth the money.

 

But that is the beauty of the AR... you can have 10 ARs, and none of them be the same.

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I don't know if I'd want a binary. Can you message me some details about the AR45 ?

https://www.maconarmory.com/

 

Rudy is the head of the company. He is a supporting vendor on AR15.com, and has his own section in the Industry list. Very good guy, and will make an upper exactly how you want it.

 

He also recently introduced his own .45 magazines, which fit in a standard magazine well. I have his older adapter, which used H&K USC magazines, but he is in the process of getting 15 rounders out. I have the adapter already, so once the magazines are ready to go, I'll be set.

 

Take a look on AR15.com, and if you have any specific questions, just shoot me a PM. If you are local to the Monmouth/Ocean border, we could meet up and have you shoot some rounds through it.

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Thanks, but have a lower on the way to my FFL... got something plain.

 

It actually might be an A3 build, being Stag does the upper I'll be going with, and it has a removable carry handle.

 

 

I have three, going on four, because I like shooting them...

 

Shotgun wise, I have a total of nine... and that doesn't include a .410 upper I have. Hunting shotguns, I have two 11-87s; one is a dedicated slug gun, the other is a field gun. There are different roles for different guns.

 

My ARs are setup for specific roles. My first one was a 16", with an Aimpoint and magnifier. I do have the .22 and .410 uppers that I specifically used with that lower... but I could toss them on the other lowers if needed (I like the .22 on the next lower I mention).

 

After that, my second AR was a lightweight pistol caliber rifle. I made a D/I .45 ACP rifle that is under seven pounds. Originally built it for an ex that had issues shooting, but made sure it was something I'd like if we broke up... which happened before I pieced it all together.

 

My third AR was more of a scoped one, but combined it with my first FDE build. My guns usually are traditional colors... black, blue, nickel, stainless, and/or wood. Wanted an AR with some magnification, and it sort of bridges the gap between my red dot ARs and my .308s (whether it is the NM M1A or my Remington Model 7).

 

This upcoming build, I wanted something more utilitarian than what I have. None of my ARs are basic as an M16/M4 clone... and since I hate pinned stocks, the A2/A3 look was best. I would like to toss in one of those binary triggers and have a third position... but don't think it is worth the money.

 

But that is the beauty of the AR... you can have 10 ARs, and none of them be the same.

That I understand. I've ran into a few people that have multiple 5.56 AR-15s. I don't know if they were competitive shooters. I guess they like to build them? I have a AR-15, an AR-10, and a CX4 Storm. This covers the two NATO calibers and a pistol size carbine. I thought about adding other calibers at one time, but there are just too many Milsurps I still want. The list never seems to end. Right now the semis I am trying to buy are the FN-49s. I have a Colombian and Egyptian. Looking for the rest. Ideally a Venezuelan next.

 

I just find the beauty of the old world craftsmanship of a Mauser much more appealing. Especially the South American and other Contract Mausers which were some of the finest made with some really nice crests. Most of mine now are all matching. I don't collect American Rifles because the parts weren't matched to the rifle. I especially like the Early War K98k. Down to the screws they were numbered and they have history as well.

 

I like the Finnish Mosins because of their accuracy and history. They had to be accurate to survive. The Russian Mosins I don't care for.

 

For the poster looking for AKs there are fire sales on them right now in California too. Saw a AK-74 today for $600. Also there is a AK-47 listed on PAFOA forums for $700. Both are less than it cost me to build mine from Saigas that I bought before the import ban.

 

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