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Schrödinger's cat

Got my first ticket, can I fight it ?

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Municipal Traffic Court = Kangaroo Court; right or wrong doesn't mean much.  

 

Your goal now is to extricate yourself as cheaply as possible - both in court and down the road with the insurance point/surcharge mess.

 

In my limited experience, the prosecutor WILL talk to individuals (but only AFTER he talks to the hired lawyers-THEIR time is valuable; your's doesn't mean squat).  If you think you can pull it off by yourself, go ahead...you're gambling a few hundred bucks now (hiring a mouthpiece) versus paying-out over time on the insurance.  The prosecutor really only cares about 3 things...(1) his conviction rate, (2) how much he is pulling-in for the town, and (3) maintaining 1&2 without having to work hard, so unless you PO'ed someone along the way, he is willing to make a deal.

 

And yes, the court clerk expects you to pay-up NOW...but most do take plastic!

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Before court meet with the prosecutor explain it's your first offense, your sorry and he will let you plead guilty to unsafe operation of motor vehicle. No points, no insurance surcharge, but a hefty fine. No more offenses over time it all goes away. Best you gonna get. Been there done that.  NJSA 39:4-97.2. Look it up, lots written about it.

 

Good advice.  Thread should have been over after this.

 

It's been my experience that you show up in municipal court at the appointed time, and then the judge gives you an opportunity to talk with

the prosecutor.  A line quickly forms, so be nimble on your feet to avoid a long wait.  The prosecutor will almost certainly strike a deal with you

along the lines of what T Bill described.  Then you have a seat back in court to wait for the judge to call you up.  When he does, he will read

you the deal that you worked out and asked you if that's how you want to plead.  You will pay your fine and go on your way,

most likely without any points.

 

Don't ask how I know all that.   :icon_e_wink:

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I agree with those who say, "discuss it with the prosecutor." If you show good faith, etc., and due to the clean record, they might allow you to plea down to a lesser offense.  Whatever you do, don't fight it in court. You will lose. Even if it's a matter of the LEOs word vs. yours (i.e. no other evidence), to whom do you think the judge will give more creedence? Someone who may pass his/her way only once, or a LEO and prosecutor with whom s/he deals with on a daily basis?

 

Take whatever deal the prosecutor is offering you.  It's your best shot.

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No old school would be cops actually protecting and serving instead of just being state revenue generators. I'm not anti cop in fact very pro law enforcement but to think the local courts are anything but a revenue generator for the state is insane.

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Gee.. that didn't take long. You make a mistake, get caught and blame somebody else. Seems to be the mentality in this country lately. Sad

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Gee.. that didn't take long. You make a mistake, get caught and blame somebody else. Seems to be the mentality in this country lately. Sad

I wasn't looking to call you or any other LE out on here but come on man if you don't think there's huge flaws in the local courts you just aren't looking. I drive for a living and trust me I've been pulled over dozens of times legitimately and for crap reasons (profiling/fishing). I've recieved exactly 2 tickets for the same incident which was a single car accident where I clipped a mailbox and was in the process of writing a note because the guy wasn't home when 7 cars rolled up because the neighbor called in a hit and run. 1 ticket for bald tires(caused by offset alignment after accident) 1 ticket for obstructing traffic (apparently the shoulder isn't for stopping in Greenbrook). I plead down to just pay the $50 Tire ticket and court fees. My PBA cards(thats a whole other discusssion) have gotten me out of the other stops.

 

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I wasn't looking to call you or any other LE out on here but come on man if you don't think there's huge flaws in the local courts you just aren't looking. I drive for a living and trust me I've been pulled over dozens of times legitimately and for crap reasons (profiling/fishing). I've recieved exactly 2 tickets for the same incident which was a single car accident where I clipped a mailbox and was in the process of writing a note because the guy wasn't home when 7 cars rolled up because the neighbor called in a hit and run. 1 ticket for bald tires(caused by offset alignment after accident) 1 ticket for obstructing traffic (apparently the shoulder isn't for stopping in Greenbrook). I plead down to just pay the $50 Tire ticket and court fees. My PBA cards(thats a whole other discusssion) have gotten me out of the other stops.

 

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I could swap stories all day with you about my experience when I was a younger me.

But, it's interesting: my wife and I met with our town prosecutor as part of the academy thing we did. Court funding for municipal is mostly state and municipal. The " callers for dollars" is more myth than fact.

 

To the OP

Have gone to court 3 times in for traffic violations thus far in my life. I met with the prosecutor beforehand. All resulted in no points charge. Explain your circumstances and be polite and respectful.

 

Even with a lawyer I feel your record will be blemished regardless. It's your money though.

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I am not a fan of writing movers just to write movers. Dont like funding the state through the average person. We pay enough. Certain things I don't tolerate like unsecured children. That will get you a ticket. I start out automatically not writing a summons as I am usually looking for something else but people's attitudes and personality can wind up earning them a summons

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I am not a fan of writing movers just to write movers. Dont like funding the state through the average person. We pay enough. Certain things I don't tolerate like unsecured children. That will get you a ticket. I start out automatically not writing a summons as I am usually looking for something else but people's attitudes and personality can wind up earning them a summons

Have you ever ticketed someone for wearing too much purple? I know I would.

Jus sayen

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Have you ever ticketed someone for wearing too much purple? I know I would.

Jus sayen

I think I was profiled for wearing purple the other day. I had to pick the gf up after her work party Sunday and on the way out I get pulled over because it was suspicious I was there after hours (last car). Even tho we explained what happened he still made me wait while he ran my shit. I got the vibe if I didn't give him my gold card he was looking to eff someone's night up. Definitely profiled my purple beanie, who knows I could be one of those Flemington Royal Purps.

 

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Why is a U turn illegal? They teach a K-turn in drivers ed and make you do it during the drivers test. Is it legal if I stop in the middle of the turn and back up a little but illegal if I have room to do it all in one motion?

Since a K-turn is simply a U-turn made in a confined space, I imagine the laws are the same for both - they're meant to accomplish the same goal, which is to turn your car around.

 

I assume the legal issue if you decide to do either turn in the middle of a road is crossing over a double yellow line.

 

I see people get nailed for this all the time on Bloomfield Avenue in Bloomfield near the Ricciardi's paint store. People park on the right side of the road, and when they leave, because Bloomfield Ave is so wide, they swing around and cross over to the other side. What they don't realize is that there's often a cop car waiting for them to do just that, and they get lit up within seconds.

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Do go back and look at those signs though. I was ticketed several years ago for turning right on red illegally. I went immediately back to the spot after the ticket and took a picture with my smart phone... then I morphed into a Philadelphia lawyer for a few days, LOL. I had a perfect driving record; I was ticked. Measured the sign, looked up NJ traffic sign specs, found out the damn thing was nearly a foot too short... and absolutely impossible to see if you were in a normal passenger vehicle and there was an SUV or van parked along the curb (which was the situation that day). 

 

Then, out of curiosity, put in an OPRA/FOIA request (can't remember which) and spent an hour looking through 6 months of their paper tickets. My hunch was right... town was making disproportionate revenue on that one intersection. By the time I went to talk to the prosecutor... they knew who I was and just wanted me to go away and not start writing letters to the editor! No points, very low fine. (BTW, years later... same illegal sign is there... I'm sure they're still making money off of it - what a scam).

 

Regardless, I don't personally think you need a lawyer for something so small. If you're polite and have a good record otherwise, prosecutors are happy to deal with you. IMO, lawyers are for serious stuff ---- multiple offenses, injuries, DUI's, etc.

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Since a K-turn is simply a U-turn made in a confined space, I imagine the laws are the same for both - they're meant to accomplish the same goal, which is to turn your car around.

 

I assume the legal issue if you decide to do either turn in the middle of a road is crossing over a double yellow line.

 

I see people get nailed for this all the time on Bloomfield Avenue in Bloomfield near the Ricciardi's paint store. People park on the right side of the road, and when they leave, because Bloomfield Ave is so wide, they swing around and cross over to the other side. What they don't realize is that there's often a cop car waiting for them to do just that, and they get lit up within seconds.

At an intersection or anywhere there is a break in the painted line that separates traffic, there must be a sign that states no U Turn for a U Turn to be illegal.

 

Outside of an intersection, you can not turn across a solid double yellow line that seperates lanes of traffic. The line is to be thought of as a curb, and may not be crossed, even to turn left into a business (there are exception to private driveways if traffic condition will allow you to do so safely) unless there is break in the line.

 

If you pull a U turn across the line, it is an illegal turn/U turn.

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On another note, I regularly see people in traffic court. With minor traffic infractions (something involving less than 5 points and/or low fines with no possibility of loss of license) I see people without lawyers get the same resolution as people with lawyers for the same offenses. That's not legal advice, just an observation I e made over the last 14 years. You can take that for what it's worth,

 

Yes, remember the Prosecutor works for the town, not you. The judge works for the law.

 

That being said, if you are honest, polite, can admit a mistake or prove innocence and there is no disagreement for the officer, the Prosecutor will generally work with you and at the very least, you will get a nice reduction in charges and fines.

 

No. You will not get the ticket dismissed if the officer doesn't appear. This is just a first appearance, not a trial date. You can speak to the Prosecutor and plead guilty to a lesser offense if you want to, but a trial necessitating an officer's presence will be rescheduled for a later time and date.

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At an intersection or anywhere there is a break in the painted line that separates traffic, there must be a sign that states no U Turn for a U Turn to be illegal.

 

Outside of an intersection, you can not turn across a solid double yellow line that seperates lanes of traffic. The line is to be thought of as a curb, and may not be crossed, even to turn left into a business (there are exception to private driveways if traffic condition will allow you to do so safely) unless there is break in the line.

 

If you pull a U turn across the line, it is an illegal turn/U turn.

Thanks for that info. I've basically always operated under the opposite assumption, that U-turns were illegal unless otherwise stated.

 

It's bizarre when you travel around the country and see people making U-turns at traffic lights on highways, but I guess that's the norm in a lot of places. Definitely not here in North Jersey, though. You can't even make a left at lights around here, let alone a U-turn. Lol

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1. Call the court at least 7 days prior to the pay by date / court date and let them know that you are going to plead not guilty.

2. Arrive on time (this is the biggest thing you can do in your favor) and speak to the prosecutor.

    A. The prosecutor will offer you a plea deal (depends on offense but usually higher fine = no points).

    B. You were late, acted like an assclown or your drivers abstract is atrocious  = no deal.

3. You can accept the deal and plead guilty to the lesser offense.  Make sure you bring some form of payment.  Cash or check, most Municipal Courts do not accept credit cards.

4. Decline the plea deal, call a lawyer, pay his fees and lose another day of your life to come back to court.  More likely or not you will wind up pleading to the same deal the prosecutor offered.

 

For minor traffic offenses you can handle yourself.  DWI, accident with injury (your at fault) or multiple moving violations I would definitely get a lawyer.

 

Almost all motor vehicle stops are recorded by video and audio usually up to one minute prior to the officer activating his emergency warning lights.

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Totally off topic but I just sat in court for a cell phone violation which was lowered to a much cheaper $55 offense but this is how it goes in franklin lakes

 

1: show up early.

2: talk to prosecutor

3: plead guilty to fine with less points

4: go wait in court room

5: everyone with a lawyer goes first.

6: this is the crazy part: everyone that speaks Spanish only goes next. You wait until they send the interpreter goes home

7: after the interpreter is about to leave everyone that speaks Spanish now pretends that they only speek Spanish so the interpreter stays and they go

8: they call you up in order you talked to the prosecutor. That's why you come early.

 

The crazy part was the number of Spanish only speaking people. They were all busted for driving without a license. Driving without having ever obtained a license previously. Driving without registration. Driving without insurance. They had no proof of residence. No proof that their address changed (and every one said their address changed since they were pulled over). And nobody was with them. How did they drive there? How are they getting home? I'm guessing they were all illegal but they pled guilty to everything and paid their fine I suppose

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On another note, I regularly see people in traffic court. With minor traffic infractions (something involving less than 5 points and/or low fines with no possibility of loss of license) I see people without lawyers get the same resolution as people with lawyers for the same offenses. That's not legal advice, just an observation I e made over the last 14 years. You can take that for what it's worth,

 

Yes, remember the Prosecutor works for the town, not you. The judge works for the law.

 

That being said, if you are honest, polite, can admit a mistake or prove innocence and there is no disagreement for the officer, the Prosecutor will generally work with you and at the very least, you will get a nice reduction in charges and fines.

 

No. You will not get the ticket dismissed if the officer doesn't appear. This is just a first appearance, not a trial date. You can speak to the Prosecutor and plead guilty to a lesser offense if you want to, but a trial necessitating an officer's presence will be rescheduled for a later time and date.

Thanks for weighing in. And thanks to all of you for all the great advice. The majority of people are saying to just come early and try to strike a deal with the prosecutor. I don't have $500 for this but I guess a lawyer would cost the same. I'm not clear on what a lawyer would say, do they just tell me to make a deal with the prosecutor or do they actually have the charge dismissed ? If I was to use a lawyer how do I find one that's chummy with this (allenhurst) court ?

 

Also if on the ticket it says it was for a no u turn sign posted and I go back and there is a problem with the sign, can they still charge me for crossing the yellow line, or can they only charge me for what is written on the ticket ? Does the officer need to keep me in sight the whole time until he gives me the ticket ? I turned a corner and it was a few seconds before he did. It can't be proved though without the release of his video.

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Okay, so it seems like I'll try to strike a deal with the prosecutor. Does anyone have any tips on what to say and how to act, or do I just act respectfully, say I learned my lesson, and tell him that I'm a really safe driver with this being the first time I was pulled over in the past nine years that I've been driving ?

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Okay, so it seems like I'll try to strike a deal with the prosecutor. Does anyone have any tips on what to say and how to act, or do I just act respectfully, say I learned my lesson, and tell him that I'm a really safe driver with this being the first time I was pulled over in the past nine years that I've been driving ?

 

Sounds like you just nailed all the key points. Dress nicely too, of course --- most people look like the dregs of society in traffic court, I swear!

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That is why I mentioned what I did.  Also get there early.  You will find lots of lawyers sitting there with clients or going in to speak with the Prosecutor.  Most of them will be very happy to take you as a client on the spot - this is not rocket science for them and they need zero prep time.  So, you could plead with the prosecutor on your own and if you don't like what he offers then retain one of the lawyers that is already there.  You might even get a better rate from them as this is incremental business they had not planned on and they are already there.

If I talk to the prosecutor and don't like what he tells me, then go and hire one of the lawyers there, will that piss the prosecutor off and make him try to push the charge through ?

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I had state Farm and got a ticket changed to the unsafe operation deal and over a year later they doubled my rate. I called them and asked them what's going on and they said they found I had an unsafe operation ticket way back when. I since switched to Navy federal and they didn't charge me for that. 

 

If you are going to get it changed ask for failure to obey signs. There are two different types though, one with 2 points and one with none. 

Good info, thanks ! Does anyone know about Geico's policy ?

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