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NJ <--> PA Concealed Carry Logistics

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Lastly, good call on the "gun free" mall sign, that's like someone who slams a no parking sign in front of their house on the street. It can't actually be enforced unless it's a legal sign placed by the government.

 

Malls are private property, so their gun-free signs are real and can be "enforced" by mall management/security asking you to leave.  If you don't leave they call the police and you can be charged with trespass.

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Malls are private property, so their gun-free signs are real and can be "enforced" by mall management/security asking you to leave. If you don't leave they call the police and you can be charged with trespass.

Yes I know, what I was implying was that the gentleman who didn't notice the sign wasn't in any dire situation other than what you just mentioned. I should have clarified.

 

 

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Wait I might be getting confused by what some people are saying here- its illegal for me to travel with a gun in the truck from NJ to PA to a friends house; not particularly to the range?

Yes PA has transport laws similar to NJ. They do not apply if you have a CCW from ANY state. Even if the permit is not honored for actual concealed carry the possession of a permit from any state exempts the possessor from the transport law.

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Yes PA has transport laws similar to NJ. They do not apply if you have a CCW from ANY state. Even if the permit is not honored for actual concealed carry the possession of a permit from any state exempts the possessor from the transport law.

I did not know that....good info, thanks

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Am pleased to report that, as planned, I concealed carried today for this first time.  Went to EFGA-->Walmart-->Applebees-->Dunkelbergers-->back to EFGA and then home.  Racked up 223 miles.  Was a very satisfying day and I feel a nice sense of accomplishment.  Ended up using a Vedder Light Tuck IWB holster at the 4 o'clock position.  No retention issues whatsoever.  Was more than tolerable to wear with my Glock 26 over the course of 6 hours and approx 70 miles driving within PA.   Of course, being a cold day, I had the luxury of wearing a sweatshirt cover garment.  While mindful of it, managed to not worry excessively about printing. I am confident I didn't..  No one batted an eyelash.

 

regards

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Welcome Steve,

I will chime in on several your points. Others can help further clarify if I mis-state anything. As always there are nuances to all of this that I will not address in the interest of brevity.

 

- You do not need a carry permit to travel out of NJ to another state. Federal law applies (FOPA). Of course your firearm needs to be properly stored in transit.

FOPA was specifically changed during legislation so that it would not protect you in your state of origin or destination. Clearly, they didn't do a great job of it. You want to believe that, go ahead, but make up your own mind and don't take this guy's word for it. Heck, third circuit ruled FOPA does not cover you taking a gun into an airport to check it because you are on foot and not in a vehicle. Who saw that coming?

 

It's not that hard to have a plan to go to a range in PA and evidence of such. Such as a print out from their website, a membership, a google routing map, some targets in the trunk, basically anything. I think it's worth it. You can say I am wrong, and the chances are minute, but the preparation is minimal and the consequences are life altering.

 

It's your ass, not mine, believe and do what you want.

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FOPA was specifically changed during legislation so that it would not protect you in your state of origin or destination. Clearly, they didn't do a great job of it. You want to believe that, go ahead, but make up your own mind and don't take this guy's word for it. Heck, third circuit ruled FOPA does not cover you taking a gun into an airport to check it because you are on foot and not in a vehicle. Who saw that coming?

 

It's not that hard to have a plan to go to a range in PA and evidence of such. Such as a print out from their website, a membership, a google routing map, some targets in the trunk, basically anything. I think it's worth it. You can say I am wrong, and the chances are minute, but the preparation is minimal and the consequences are life altering.

 

It's your ass, not mine, believe and do what you want.

Like I originally stated, there are nuances to what I shared.   Mipa, thanks for clarifying one of them. (Although respectively, not sure I appreciate the "this guy's word" comment, but oh well.).  I was merely trying to express, in response to his original inquiry,  that there is no law prohibiting you from crossing (outbound) the NJ border.  

 

Regarding evidence I agree.  Last Saturday when I went to PA, I in fact had everything you mentioned(EFGA membership, website printout, Google map and route, targets, AS WELL as US Law Shield coverage and my Garmin GPSMAP76 actively tracking and storing my entire journey.  Like you said, prep was minimal but consequences life altering should anything go awry legally.   Part of the conditioning of having to live in "no unreasonable deviation" New Jersey. 

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Heck, third circuit ruled FOPA does not cover you taking a gun into an airport to check it because you are on foot and not in a vehicle. 

 

So technically/legally we are not covered by FOPA when traveling from home to the airport check-in?  We're exposed?  Does this FOPA "hole" also apply to the point of traveling from home to NJ state line? We're not covered by anything?

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So technically/legally we are not covered by FOPA when traveling from home to the airport check-in? We're exposed? Does this FOPA "hole" also apply to the point of traveling from home to NJ state line? We're not covered by anything?

The way it was explained to me was that as long as you're crossing state lines into a state that you can legally carry (be it a permit from that state or one covered under reciprocity) you are fine. However, just like when going to a range, you are not to stop (with your handgun) for any reason until you cross state lines. This includes an act of god, like an accident, or a heart attack. Either of those will land you in jail if you live through the event under NJ law.

 

 

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So technically/legally we are not covered by FOPA when traveling from home to the airport check-in? We're exposed? Does this FOPA "hole" also apply to the point of traveling from home to NJ state line? We're not covered by anything?

You asked two different questions.

 

3rd Circuit "passed a law" (yes I said that) that having a gun on foot for any reason is settled business. It is not covered under FOPA. Including checking it in at an airport.

 

Crossing a state line, or saying you will, only some people in Jersey will say FOPA protects you in your state of origin or destination. NOBODY else believes that. It is the refuge of the desperate and oppressed. Oh, then there's Nappen. How many of you were told by Nappen that carrying a firearm into an airport was covered by FOPA? I remember quite a few that got that legal advice from him personally. Did you get your money back? So don't pull that shit.

 

Make up your own mind. Like I said, it's your ass, not mine. I don't have a horse in this race. Where we hail from, we have a code. We tell people when they are screwing up. We don't argue with them, or pester them, we just leave it at that. Perhaps you have a different opinion, have at it.

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The way it was explained to me was that as long as you're crossing state lines into a state that you can legally carry (be it a permit from that state or one covered under reciprocity) you are fine.

100% bullshit. You cannot break the laws in your state of origin or your state of destination simply because you plan to cross a state line.

 

Please look into this elsewhere before you make up your mind. You don't have to listen to me, either, just do your own research.

 

This is so easy to get around that there is no reason to chant and wave bones over your gun and roll on a wing and a prayer just to make a point. Think about the people you give this advice to. The dozens of people here that said it is legal to carry your gun to an airport against state laws, and the courts have decided you can't. You can say everybody is wrong, including the people that wrote the law, except for the people on an NJ gun forum who are right. But think about the peril you are exsposing people to. At least tell them there is some uncertainty, since nobody in the country agrees with you.

 

I gotta get outta this because you guys always get pissed when this comes up.

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Mipa wants you to believe that if you travel from NJ to OH, you are covered by FOPA only in PA, But, if you go from NJ to PA, FOPA does not apply. Am I right mipa?

 

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Mipa wants you to believe that if you travel from NJ to OH, you are covered by FOPA only in PA, But, if you go from NJ to PA, FOPA does not apply. Am I right mipa?

 

Sent from an undisclosed location

Yes, unless this is a trick question.

 

Are you covered by FOPA walking into an airport checking your gun within the realm of the 3rd Circuit?

 

Are you covered walking from your apartment into a common area that is not your property where your car is parked?

 

What would you have said about those things five years ago? Same as Nappen, Good to go!

 

They intentionally revised FOPA to exclude state or origin or destination. The people that wrote it are on the record. How will it go in court? I have no idea. I was stunned by the airport thing. How will it go with a cop? I still have no idea. But there is peril, because the law was not meant to cover this.

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100% bullshit. You cannot break the laws in your state of origin or your state of destination simply because you plan to cross a state line.

 

Please look into this elsewhere before you make up your mind. You don't have to listen to me, either, just do your own research.

 

This is so easy to get around that there is no reason to chant and wave bones over your gun and roll on a wing and a prayer just to make a point. Think about the people you give this advice to. The dozens of people here that said it is legal to carry your gun to an airport against state laws, and the courts have decided you can't. You can say everybody is wrong, including the people that wrote the law, except for the people on an NJ gun forum who are right. But think about the peril you are exsposing people to. At least tell them there is some uncertainty, since nobody in the country agrees with you.

 

I gotta get outta this because you guys always get pissed when this comes up.

 

Whoa buddy, don't get mad. I'm not giving advice, I'm just relaying what was told to me. Please explain what was wrong with what I wrote. I want to know everything I can. I'm fairly sure that if I stop in NJ, even to take a piss, on my way to carry in PA I could be prosecuted for a deviation in my route. Is that correct?

 

 

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100% bullshit. You cannot break the laws in your state of origin or your state of destination simply because you plan to cross a state line.

 

Please look into this elsewhere before you make up your mind. You don't have to listen to me, either, just do your own research.

 

This is so easy to get around that there is no reason to chant and wave bones over your gun and roll on a wing and a prayer just to make a point. Think about the people you give this advice to. The dozens of people here that said it is legal to carry your gun to an airport against state laws, and the courts have decided you can't. You can say everybody is wrong, including the people that wrote the law, except for the people on an NJ gun forum who are right. But think about the peril you are exsposing people to. At least tell them there is some uncertainty, since nobody in the country agrees with you.

 

I gotta get outta this because you guys always get pissed when this comes up.

Wait, this is lost in translation... I meant having your firearm stored within the guidelines of the state (that you're in) law without deviation.

 

 

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You mates have been given enough notice to decide for yourselves if you want to give it some thought. Like I said, it's my obligation to put my brother on notice, not to argue with him.

 

I think some modest precautions that take 2 minutes would be prudent. I want you guys armed when you come to my Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Heck, I want you armed in Jersey.

 

Best of luck.

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FOPA was specifically changed during legislation so that it would not protect you in your state of origin or destination.

 

I am reading this post and I am a bit confused. I live in NJ and have a PA LTC, are you saying that unless I am going to a range in PA, that I cannot legally carry my handgun thru NJ to get to PA?  I cannot drive directly to the PA state line with my handgun (safely stored of course as per NJ law) just to go shopping?  I own property in NYS and also have a unrestricted carry permit in NYS, is it legal for me to drive from my home in NJ directly to my home in NYS where I can legally carry?  If it is not legal to drive from my home in NJ directly to a state where I can legally carry unless I am going to a range in those states, then that basically makes my CCW in those states worthless, no??

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I am reading this post and I am a bit confused. I live in NJ and have a PA LTC, are you saying that unless I am going to a range in PA, that I cannot legally carry my handgun thru NJ to get to PA?  I cannot drive directly to the PA state line with my handgun (safely stored of course as per NJ law) just to go shopping?  I own property in NYS and also have a unrestricted carry permit in NYS, is it legal for me to drive from my home in NJ directly to my home in NYS where I can legally carry?  If it is not legal to drive from my home in NJ directly to a state where I can legally carry unless I am going to a range in those states, then that basically makes my CCW in those states worthless, no??

 

The bad thing about NJ is that there's too much ambiguity in the laws (intentionally I think) to make a positive statement that applies to all situations.

 

Taken conservatively the most common understand I've seen communicated is that there are no issues in NJ if you're going from your home to an approved location like a hunting ground, range, a gun shop, or your business/property.  Outside of that you're introducing the potential for varying interpretation when you encounter the police (and then subsequently prosecutors, etc).

 

I've not seen any indication that having a valid permit in another state is an approved reason to have a gun with you in NJ.  Yes, it's silly and ridiculous like many of the other NJ laws/rules, but it is what it is.

 

I'm not an attorney or lawmaker of any kind, so feel free to read what's available and make your own decisions and act accordingly.

 

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Taken conservatively the most common understand I've seen communicated is that there are no issues in NJ if you're going from your home to an approved location like a hunting ground, range, a gun shop, or your business/property.

 

I believe that part of the NJ law is crystal clear and not open to any interpretation, these are the "exempted locations".

 

The concerning part is when you are not traveling between exempted intrastate locations but merely traveling out of state by air.  You would expect FOPA to cover you, but apparently not, as referenced in this article:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Jersey#Interstate_transportation_of_unloaded_firearms

 

I am not reading anything here by the 3rd circuit that says FOPA will not cover you when traveling out of state by vehicle.  Their issue was carrying by hand/not in a vehicle [my words].  The firearm was "readily available" to the possessor. 

 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/3rd/092029p.pdf

 

The Court also explained that “§ 926A does not address anything but vehicular travel; it does not encompass keeping the weapon –

locked in a case or not – in an airport hotel overnight.”

So it seems the sticking point seems to be that he was in possession in a non-exempt location, the hotel. The court further wrote:

 

It is clear from the statute that a person transporting a firearm across state lines must ensure that the firearm and any ammunition being transported is not “readily accessible or ... directly accessible from the passenger compartment of [the] transporting vehicle.” Id. Looking solely at the allegations of Revell’s original complaint, it is also clear that what happened here does not fall within § 926A’s scope because his firearm and ammunition were readily accessible to him during his overnight stay in New Jersey.

https://www.law360.com/articles/472849/3rd-circ-says-port-authority-can-confiscate-firearms

 

In a precedential decision, the three-judge panel unanimously held that the Firearms Owner Protection Act’s “safe passage provision” — a law allowing people to pass from state to state with their firearms — only protected people traveling by “vehicle,” including car, train and plane. FOPA’s protections do not apply when a person walks through an airport terminal to his flight, the court stated.

 

The court focused on the definitions of words like "such," "provided" and "if," noting FOPA's use of these words "makes clear that the transportation [of firearms that] the statute protects must take place in a 'transporting vehicle.'" U.S. District Judge Jed S. Rakoff, who sat on the appeals panel by designation, added that the federal law's language means a walking individual "who intends to transit through Newark Airport is outside the coverage of [FOPA]."

How are in the world we expected to fly with our firearms?

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You are expected to leave them at home.....

 

The answer is find a range at your flight destination and print the info for that range and if asked at the airport say you are going to that range. And actually go and shoot there for compliance purposes when you are there.

 

I was stopped at newark 9 years ago and i said i was going to a convention and target shooting, both true statements. Second Amendment Foundation GRPC. The police called me on the PA system after i declared and checked it and was going to the gate. I went to the TSA since my name was called and the police got me and held me and asked questions. Convention and target practice was what I said. They made me give them the key to the case and held me while another cop went to baggage and searched my suitcase amd looked at my handgun and ran my ID. I showed them my florida permit but they didnt care about that. They sure tried to make me feel uncomfortable through the whole process. They let me proceed and I think the reason was I said target practice and the range info was in my suitcase. That meant they had no case. Have your NJ exemption ready to go.

 

And I did in fact go to the range and shoot while I was there and brought a target and receipt back with me to cover the return trip. After dealing with that up front I had no choice. How do I know if they will follow up when I returned? In fact I had no problem when I returned since they have no way of knowing what is in arriving baggage.

 

I never did that again. An unpleasant experience. The police do not want you to do it. Declaring and checking on the return trip was easy because that airport was not in NJ.

 

I don't even bother carrying in PA anymore. I did it enough to understand what an ordinary thing it is if the police leave you alone. The problem is in NJ they will not leave you alone during the trip to and from the border if they get you in their hands. It is very unsettling to be a law abiding citizen and being essentially treated like a potential collar by peace officers. I am not a piece of meat. My life and career are fragile enough that they could steamroll me flat and there is no recourse. Be safe and make no assumptions about the law.

 

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