Carry training, holster

[Newtonian 453]

You are forgetting a key component when it comes to the classic definition of carrying in condition 0. That designation usually applies to 1911s, or if you were to cock a DA/SA gun and leave it like that. 1911 triggers have a very short take up in comparison to Glocks, or even modern striker fired guns where the striker is completely pulled back, such as the PPQ or VP9.

 

Regarding the blue gun argument, the weight difference argument is pretty weak. You aren't handicapping yourself by practicing safe holster draws using a lighter version of your actual gun. For one thing, you're not practicing for the sake of shaving .1sec of your draw time. You use a blue gun to initially learn safe drawing and re-holstering habits, and eventually use it to work on some combatitives training. If it makes you feel that much better though, get a SIRT pistol. You have the weight of an actual pistol, plus the ability to practice dry fires with it.

I thought 1911s were carried in condition 1, cocked and locked. I never heard of anyone carrying a SAO gun with a round in and the safety off, which is standard for a glock (which has no safety). Yet out of the box pulls on a 1911 are 4-5 lbs, which is very close to a Glock's. OK, so a Glock is carried not in condition 0 but condition 0.10. 

 

OK, if there's no difference between 11 lbs and 5 lbs why not adjust your trigger to half a pound or 4 ounces or 2 ounces? I was just reading about 3 guys who shot themselves without touching the trigger. Unfortunately the draw straps on their clothing did not follow the 3 rules of gun safety. You can be sure those straps weren't pulling 11 lbs.

 

 

I began this thread with a sincere question about training for CC. Basic stuff for confidence, things I can practice so I don't kill anybody unless I have to. You guys advised me to enter a competition where people are jumping around pretending they're in Mogadishu, but then to practice drawing at home with a piece of plastic. 

 

Anyone but me see the incongruity?

[oldguysrule649 397]

With regards to CC training, I intend to see what classes GSSC offers. I plan to also call Gun4Hire and obtain info on their NRA Defensive Handgun class as well as their Urban Pistol 1 class. Not sure of the difference but will likely sign up for one of them to start with. The bottomline is CC training is my priority at this time in my firearms journey.

 

Btw, I plan to CC for the first time this Saturday; in PA. My plan is EFGA-->Walmart-->Dunkelburgers-->EFGA, then back home with gun stored of course. My goal is modest, baby steps. Get experience with holster placement/comfort, try not to print or have the gun fall out(heaven forbid), get mentally accustomed to CC, etc.

[acaixguard 37]

Newtonian, I think you are going way off on a tangent at this point, and confusing yourself. It's very simple....just forget all the conditions. Carry a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber, a DA/SA with the hammer down (decocked) on a live chamber, and 1911 or Hi-Power cocked and locked. Learn proper trigger finger discipline. And this does not mean keeping your finger straight resting on the trigger guard. Your finger needs to be pointed 45º up, touching the slide. It was Ken Hackathorn who taught me that years ago at a class, and that good habit has been ingrained in me since.

Like HE said, enroll in a good class, learn the fundamentals of drawing from a holster, getting good hits on target, shooting on the move, reloading, and safely re-holstering first. Once you have all that down, then maybe consider participating in one of those gun games like IDPA. And just pony up and get the blue gun or SIRT pistol so you can practice at home. Yes, I'm confident in my safety steps prior to handling any pistol, and I know a round won't somehow appear in my chamber. However, I make it a point to always be aware of my muzzle, and being that my kids may be in one part of the house while my wife is in another, I stand a good chance of having a muzzle pointed in the direction of a loved one anytime I am practicing techniques at home. Pointing a firearm in the direction of my family members with only dry wall in between is something I'm never going to feel good about, even knowing that the gun is empty.

 

oldguysrule649, as HE suggested, I strongly suggest looking into a class from Joe Riedy of Sights and Trigger, if you can make the drive just over the PA border. You will get much better training than at GFH, and from a trainer with solid experience. Furthermore, you are getting far more bang per buck. $175 for an 8 hour class taught by someone with solid credntials, vs GFH who charges around $200 for a 4 hour class. You decide.

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

Joe Riedy for the win. Good, solid training thats at a bargain price.

 

I will probably do another couple classes with him this year and my training calendar is already pretty full. I like the fact that they are only one day and are relatively close to my home.

[oldguysrule649 397]

Will check into his classes. Thanks for the recommendation.

Btw, when I CC this weekend for the first time, I plan to have my Glock 26 loaded but not one in the chamber. I will re-evaluate that next time and after I take addl training.

[Newtonian 453]

Newtonian, I think you are going way off on a tangent at this point, and confusing yourself. It's very simple....just forget all the conditions. Carry a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber, a DA/SA with the hammer down (decocked) on a live chamber, and 1911 or Hi-Power cocked and locked. Learn proper trigger finger discipline. And this does not mean keeping your finger straight resting on the trigger guard. Your finger needs to be pointed 45º up, touching the slide. It was Ken Hackathorn who taught me that years ago at a class, and that good habit has been ingrained in me since.

Like HE said, enroll in a good class, learn the fundamentals of drawing from a holster, getting good hits on target, shooting on the move, reloading, and safely re-holstering first. Once you have all that down, then maybe consider participating in one of those gun games like IDPA. And just pony up and get the blue gun or SIRT pistol so you can practice at home. Yes, I'm confident in my safety steps prior to handling any pistol, and I know a round won't somehow appear in my chamber. However, I make it a point to always be aware of my muzzle, and being that my kids may be in one part of the house while my wife is in another, I stand a good chance of having a muzzle pointed in the direction of a loved one anytime I am practicing techniques at home. Pointing a firearm in the direction of my family members with only dry wall in between is something I'm never going to feel good about, even knowing that the gun is empty.

 

oldguysrule649, as HE suggested, I strongly suggest looking into a class from Joe Riedy of Sights and Trigger, if you can make the drive just over the PA border. You will get much better training than at GFH, and from a trainer with solid experience. Furthermore, you are getting far more bang per buck. $175 for an 8 hour class taught by someone with solid credntials, vs GFH who charges around $200 for a 4 hour class. You decide.

Thanks. That sounds like a plan. I wanted to avoid GFH as well. Seems too industrialized, expensive, and there are personal reasons as well for why I choose not to give them business. I will check out Sights and Trigger. I enjoy driving to MipaLand much better than venturing "down there."

 

I am probably reviled by some in these forums for not letting stuff go, for wanting to have the last word. I apologize, and recognize that you've all been very kind considering my lack of experience yet my strongly voiced "opinions." 

 

I'm an old guy who's seen a lot of stuff. "Fake news" is nothing new to me. The purpose of a fair amount of conventional wisdom is not to impart understanding but to control, screw, or extract money from you. That's why I question conventional logic even on topics where I lack direct experience. On the matter of blue guns I do have some thoughts however.

 

I too would be uncomfortable swinging a handgun around with just some drywall between me and my kids or a neighbor. That's why I play with and clean my guns in my basement and never while loaded (either the gun or me) and never point toward the ceiling or windows. But eventually those of you who carry must load your guns no? Where? I laugh when Jerry M. warns about not handling guns in the same room where you store ammunition. Ever notice what's behind him on the shelves as he fondles his hardware or unboxes a new toy? My only point is that ensuring a gun is empty and cleared is the only way to assure no mayhem will ensue. If you do not trust yourself doing that, and don't recognize situations where playing with even a cleared gun while not scientifically unsafe is inappropriate, you have some fairly serious things to consider about gun ownership. If you don't trust yourself to safety check your gun then using a blue gun in what is arguably one of the least likely instances where accidents occur is not going to solve your problem. That sentiment derives not from the NRA or Internet Gunslinger but from Newtonian logic. F=ma. 

[acaixguard 37]

Again you are overthinking this way too much. Let go of the Newtonian logic. Remember, Newton reportedly died a virgin!

It's so simple. It's much easier to find a safe direction to point the gun when safety checking or chambering a round than it is to practice draws, room clears, etc.

Seriously, stop thinking of trivial matters, sign up for a class, and buy a SIRT pistol. Much better use of your time!

[10X 3,296]

OK, so a Glock is carried not in condition 0 but condition 0.10. 

 

 

 

I might go as high as Condition 0.6 in describing a loaded Glock, but I'm really chiming in to say I like fractional description.

[Newtonian 453]

I might go as high as Condition 0.6 in describing a loaded Glock, but I'm really chiming in to say I like fractional description.

 

Condition 0 =  4.5

Condition 1 = 11-12

 

5.5 lb (glock) - 4.5 lb (cz75) = 1 lb

 

1/11.5 = 0.087 

 

If you "fix" your glock trigger to 4.5, or 4, or 3 (unheard of !!) is it still not condition 0?

 

Like saying "Maryanne doesn't have AIDS, she is merely infected with HIV."

[Newtonian 453]

Again you are overthinking this way too much. Let go of the Newtonian logic. Remember, Newton reportedly died a virgin!

It's so simple. It's much easier to find a safe direction to point the gun when safety checking or chambering a round than it is to practice draws, room clears, etc.

Seriously, stop thinking of trivial matters, sign up for a class, and buy a SIRT pistol. Much better use of your time!

These guys must be nuts then: http://store.laser-ammo.com/laser-training/surestrike-38-special-357-cartridge.html

 

"Use Your Own Gun: Improve shooting skills using your firearm of choice so the weight, balance, feel, and all unique characteristics will be the same as when used in live shooting."

 

These guys too: https://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-lt-cartridge

 

And what about: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/foghorn/gear-review-aimtech-laser-training-system/

 

"The next best thing would be the SIRT pistol system, but that doesn’t let you use your existing gun. For a pro I can see this being a good investment, but for the average shooter you might want to invest in lead instead."

 

And for a below-average shooter?

 

Interestingly SIRTs are recommended for glocks because -- the other laser systems won't work in them because glock triggers don't reset unless they go bang first. So unless you have a striker-fired gun a SIRT doesn't make much sense. 

[acaixguard 37]

You weren't kidding when you said you have to get the last word in. Even if it means you have to start rambling in circles.

My only question is why do you even bother posting questions if you have it all figured out for yourself? Sounds like there is no convincing you that the SIRT or blue gun has any value, so why not just drop that discussion?

Also, don't show me any quotes from thetruthaboutguns. Not exactly the most credible source.

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

I love my Sirt trainer and it works for me. Ive had mine for a few years now. I still dry fire with my real glock sometimes since the trigger is the real trigger pull b/c its a real gun.

 

If you are not digging the whole Sirt thing and you own a Glock then there is a company called dryfiremag.com that makes a plug in for your glock that allows you to cycle the pistol in dry fire without having to reset the trigger. I ordered one out of curiosity and I was underwhelmed. My crisp glock trigger break was mushy and weak with this device. I returned it and got a refund.

 

http://dryfiremag.com/

[acaixguard 37]

I concur with BullzeyeNJ. The SIRT is a great training tool. In fact, I bring it to the range with me pretty often just so I can work on fundamentals in between live fire.

 

Also, to say the SIRT has no value to you because you don't shoot a Glock is like saying you can't go to Skip Barber to learn track racing techniques because they put you in a Mazda track car, but you drive a Nissan. Shooting fundamentals are shooting fundamentals...doesn't matter what gun you shoot. Sure, we all have a preferred action or trigger, but the mechanics should all be the same. Ever wonder why all the top shooters can pick up your gun, and still outshoot you?

[Newtonian 453]

Didn't say SIRT had no value. But there's something to be said for practicing with the actual equipment you use. I didn't realize that would be a heretical statement. I'm sure the blue gun suggestion was made with the most charitable intentions. It just doesn't make sense in light of everything else I read. 

 

BTW nobody addressed my point about trusting yourself to clear a gun before playing with it. 

[acaixguard 37]

BTW nobody addressed my point about trusting yourself to clear a gun before playing with it.

So based on that reasoning, it should be ok to point real guns at each other. After all, we should trust ourselves to ensure the gun is not loaded, and since a round can't magically appear in the chamber, it should be good to go right?

[acaixguard 37]

Also, the fact that you said "playing with it" already tells me you have the improper mindset when it comes to weapons. Nobody who is responsible "plays" with their guns. I treat my gums like they are capable of taking another life at ALL times. No exceptions. Doesn't mean I'm not 100% confident that my gun is currently not loaded. I don't check for an unloaded weapon so I can't point it wherever. I do that so I can safely perform administrative tasks, and maybe to dry fire in a safe direction. Even after checking a gun to be sure it is empty, I still only point it at something I can live with being destroyed. That means I don't point it at any wall when I'm not sure what's beyond it. The reason for this is to ingrain safe habits. No matter how much you trust yourself, you are not perfect. The day could come where you are distracted and forget a step in your safety checks. Not to mention, habits carry over, so when you do carry with a live round, you will be used to treating a gun appropriately. Also, you may be sure your gun is loaddd but what if someone else walks in the room and sees you pointing a real gun at them? Definitely won't sit well with them.

[Newtonian 453]

So based on that reasoning, it should be ok to point real guns at each other. After all, we should trust ourselves to ensure the gun is not loaded, and since a round can't magically appear in the chamber, it should be good to go right?

No not at all. What I said was that UNLESS you clear the gun it can never be considered safe. And IF you clear it it is always 100% safe. And unless you trust yourself on that point of safety you have some thinking to do. This is science not religion. We're not talking heebie jeebies at getting swept we're talking about actually getting shot.

 

Think of it this way. Gun loaded/unloaded; finger on/off the trigger; gun pointed at/away from people; operator sober/high on LSD; safety engaged/not engaged. 

 

This particular handgun is sitting on shooting bench pointing at you. You can choose just one of those safety conditions to be absolutely positive about. Which one would it be?

 

Be honest. 

 

Imagine you walk into a room with a person sitting at a table with a gun in front of him. There is no ammo in the room or in that person's possession except there might be some in the gun. Here are some possibilities: The person is the most perfectly trained gun expert in the world or he's never touched a gun before; the gun is loaded or unloaded; he's touching the gun or not; he's touching the gun with his finger on or off the trigger; the gun is pointed at or away from you; the individual is sober or drunk; the safety on the gun is engaged or not (or doesn't exist).

 

You can choose just one of those safety conditions to be absolutely positive about, to control. All the others will be the worse of the two possible cases. Which one would it be? Which is the only situation, the only condition, that assures you cannot get shot no matter what else happens?

 

Be honest. I take that back you're incapable.

[acaixguard 37]

Wtf are you talking about???

[Newtonian 453]

Also, the fact that you said "playing with it" already tells me you have the improper mindset when it comes to weapons. Nobody who is responsible "plays" with their guns. I treat my gums like they are capable of taking another life at ALL times. No exceptions. Doesn't mean I'm not 100% confident that my gun is currently not loaded. I don't check for an unloaded weapon so I can't point it wherever. I do that so I can safely perform administrative tasks, and maybe to dry fire in a safe direction. Even after checking a gun to be sure it is empty, I still only point it at something I can live with being destroyed. That means I don't point it at any wall when I'm not sure what's beyond it. The reason for this is to ingrain safe habits. No matter how much you trust yourself, you are not perfect. The day could come where you are distracted and forget a step in your safety checks. Not to mention, habits carry over, so when you do carry with a live round, you will be used to treating a gun appropriately. Also, you may be sure your gun is loaddd but what if someone else walks in the room and sees you pointing a real gun at them? Definitely won't sit well with them.

This is clearly a religion for you. Nobody is pointing shit at nobody. I'm in my goddamn basement with nobody else in the house pointing my gun at a foundation wall with about 300 linear feet of near solid shale behind it. True I like that particular cinder block I aim at -- I like it very much and would hate to destroy it but I'd have to empty a few magazines from one of my Mosins into it to do that. I can't even put a tomato stake into the surface dirt without using a sledgehammer and a steel dowel but ok, 8 feet down I'm going to draw an empty gun from a holster, not even pull the trigger, and kill somebody cooling their feet at the far end of the pond behind my house.

 

What's scary about this exchange is that people who obsess over minutiae, or fret like old Italian ladies over low-risk events, are so brain-drained that they miss some big stuff. I sincerely hope that is not the case with you.

[acaixguard 37]

Cool, rock on dude! Glad that you consider handling firearms to be a low risk activity.

 

Just do us a favor. If you ever sign up for a class, please let us know. That way, if I ever happen to be enrolled in the same class, I'll know to look out for you, so that I can stand on the opposite end of the firing line.

[Newtonian 453]

Cool, rock on dude! Glad that you consider handling firearms to be a low risk activity.

 

Just do us a favor. If you ever sign up for a class, please let us know. That way, if I ever happen to be enrolled in the same class, I'll know to look out for you, so that I can stand on the opposite end of the firing line.

I'm sure our paths wouldn't cross on the training circuit, Sheriff. Where I shoot and have taken classes they trust us with actual guns and don't scold us like we're 12 year old shoplifters. 

 

I asked a simple question, inelegantly perhaps, of which single solitary safety condition you would always desire. I've gone back and edited the question. Are you brave enough to answer it or do you need a translator?

[acaixguard 37]

Your question makes no sense and has no real world application. I nearly got a headache just reading it.

 

And you're right, it's not likely I'll run into you. First it's doubtful you even train, and second, I tend to take classes from the most reputable trainers who expect us to have big boy rules ingrained already.

[Newtonian 453]

Your question makes no sense and has no real world application. I nearly got a headache just reading it.

 

And you're right, it's not likely I'll run into you. First it's doubtful you even train, and second, I tend to take classes from the most reputable trainers who expect us to have big boy rules ingrained already.

My question made perfect sense. The real world application is the subject of our argument. Of all the gun safety features which one would you insist on? You just don't want to answer. Or you're too ... Naaa I won't say it. You might come after me with a pop tart chewed into the shape of an atom bomb.

 

Use a dull finish paint on your blue gun and don't stare at it too long. Your headache will pass.

 

And yup. I passed on the 95% off special at the Blue Gun Dry Fire Academy where you teach. The $15 price was right for the full day of training but I lost the water pistol and edible Lone Ranger holster they wanted me to bring along.

[acaixguard 37]

No your question makes no sense at all. I'm very comfortable with gun safety rules, so I have no problem answering any valid question. Unfortunately, just like all of your other posts, your question was just full of convulsions and nonsense.

Just to simplify this, trigger finger off until you consciously decide to fire. Muzzle pointed in as safe a direction as possible. People end up violating 1 out of those 2 rules at times (such as SWAT entries...very difficult not to sweep a teammate or yourself at times). You can't violate both rules.

Btw, Google Ken Hackathorn's snake drill. I've run that drill in his class with no issues. Have you? You wouldn't even be allowed to participate in that drill without solid fundamentals.

[Newtonian 453]

No your question makes no sense at all. I'm very comfortable with gun safety rules, so I have no problem answering any valid question. Unfortunately, just like all of your other posts, your question was just full of convulsions and nonsense.

Just to simplify this, trigger finger off until you consciously decide to fire. Muzzle pointed in as safe a direction as possible. People end up violating 1 out of those 2 rules at times (such as SWAT entries...very difficult not to sweep a teammate or yourself at times). You can't violate both rules.

Btw, Google Ken Hackathorn's snake drill. I've run that drill in his class with no issues. Have you? You wouldn't even be allowed to participate in that drill without solid fundamentals.

Hey Captain BlueGun I stated at the beginning that I was inexperienced and looking for advice. I got some good tips and then you came along. Everybody knows and strives to follow the damn rules so stop with the finger-pointing on the finger and pointing stuff. Stop with the passive-aggressive "oh so you don't believe in gun safety" crap. And cut out the striker-fired marketing script. If I read one more time (as with the recent army Glock/Sig story) that a gun has X-number of "safeties" that prevent mishaps except for the most common cause of NDs I'm going to strap my blue gun to my target stand and end its miserable existence. 

 

Again I'm not criticizing anybody's gun, carry, or training preference. I recognize I have prejudices in this regard. But don't tell me I'm not being safe because I practice dry firing and am considering holster draw drills with a real gun and not a fake. If you can be trusted not to shoot someone during your Mogadishu Snake drills, or for that matter carrying a loaded gun in battery at a mall, please show some respect to individuals who choose to practice non-critical gun operation safely in their homes. 

[acaixguard 37]

I'm going to strap my blue gun to my target stand and end its miserable existence.

Go for it!

[oldguysrule649 397]

Based on the advice and valuable guidance in this thread (thank you all, and especially HE), I have enrolled in the S&T Pistol 1 class scheduled for July 1st.  I have also just ordered a Glock 26 Gen 4 blue gun which should arrive in 3-4 weeks.  Will provide further details once it arrives.

[High Exposure 5,664]

Outstanding!

I may be there myself with my brother in law to get him up to speed (he is a new pistol owner) and to knock the rust off myself - I try to take one basic class a year to work on fundamentals and I haven't been shooting much as I like lately.

I'll let you know.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Just to make this simple.  Shoot an IDPA match and/or a steel match.  

Easy peasy, Japanesesy

[oldguysrule649 397]

5 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Outstanding!

I may be there myself with my brother in law to get him up to speed (he is a new pistol owner) and to knock the rust off myself - I try to take one basic class a year to work on fundamentals and I haven't been shooting much as I like lately.

I'll let you know.

Yes, please do let me know.  I look forward to meeting and introducing ourselves. All the more since I am only 5 minutes up the road (Rt 36).